Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: In this podcast.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Evan Earwicker. And we are back after a week off hanging out, talking about, you know, the Bible and preaching.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: We could talk about the Seahawks free agent transactions if you'd like. But, yeah, I guess fine. Teaching and all that kind of stuff would be great.
[00:00:36] Speaker B: Correction. You could talk about that.
[00:00:39] Speaker A: It could kind of create a fun conversation where you could just have a bunch of conjecture about what you think things are and who is what.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that's been my whole life. Anytime I walk into a conversation about sports in general.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: You referenced sports this last weekend.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: I did, yeah.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Blazer game.
[00:00:58] Speaker B: I always feel very insecure every time I mention any professional sporting event.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: It's funny.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: I'm like, people are going to see.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Right through this because it's funny. Because how I see you is I hear you talk about it and I go, this is how a person should talk about sports.
This is the right way. This is a mature way to get.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: A reasonable relationship with it without knowing any of the details about the players or the sport itself. You know, just kind of the. The basics, right, Exactly.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: That's a healthy relationship with sport. I am way too far beyond that. Too far gone.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Someone said that people like a dumb comic. You know, it's funnier if it's not a smart person up on the stage. So I feel like we all have to mine out those areas where we just don't know anything and let people laugh a little bit.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's Adam Sandler, who's famous for going up to comics and saying, you got in shape. Why'd you get in shape? This is terrible. You should not be in good shape and be a comic. You need people to already feel like they can make jokes about you immediately.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Out of the gate. Another preachiness comedy. But there is some crossover in just being in a room full of people and wanting to connect with people, right?
[00:02:06] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And hopefully this podcast is another way to do that. So if you are enjoying the podcast, we would encourage you to rate review, subscribe on Apple Podcasts. Go ahead and leave us a review. You can even put a question in that review if you got a question for the podcast for one of us, really, about anything at all, especially sports, direct that one at Epic. But we would love to get a little bit of interaction in some simple ways here if we can.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. And as we are now In Lent, we just marked Ash Wednesday. We had an Ash Wednesday service, which, you know, I didn't grow up with an Ash Wednesday. Did you have Ash Wednesday services in your church growing up?
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Yeah, to be honest, I didn't even know what it was until I was probably in my early 20s. Yeah. No, we didn't do Christmas Eve services. Cause it drew such a tiny crowd when I was growing up, which is funny.
We'd have 100 people in church. You get eight for Christmas Eve. So no Christmas Eve. That was new to me as far as it being a really big deal until I got into my 20s, moved out of town. So, yeah, no Christmas Eve, no Ash Wednesday, no Good Friday. None of these were part of the calendar for me.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Huh. I've noticed with Christmas Eve, I assume everybody does them now Christmas Eve services, but I've noticed even large churches that just, it's not a thing they do. And it's become so core for us. And I think in our town, everybody does Christmas Eve now in Central Oregon, so it feels like the norm. But maybe it's not. I know Ash Wednesday is more rare for sure in, you know, non liturgical churches. Not usually a thing. But we found a lot of value in gathering those who want to come out for Ash Wednesday, for sure, Good Friday. But Ash Wednesday this year we had, I don't know, 130 people coming out at noon in the middle of a Wednesday for a time, which is, I mentioned this this weekend.
It pushes against the whole concept of Ash Wednesday, pushes against the American Christianity up and to the right, you know, health and wealth kind of preaching. Because it's about mortality and realizing that we're dust and relying on Christ for forgiveness, of sin and repentance and life. Right. And so it's a very sober service, I guess how I'd say it.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: And you and I really like it. Do you think we like it just because it's a pivot from what we grew up with? I think we believe in the message of the service. Right. But you and I, just to go behind the scenes and a lot of the rest of the staff, it's. There's this almost like big excitement about it, like, oh, here comes Ash Wednesday, here comes a Good Friday. Which is a similar thing. Very sorrowful.
But I think you could call them both a little bit more contemplative than the services that we grew up in or even the services that we run on an average Sunday. Do you think we like it just because it's different and new, or is this tapping into Something that is a bit more soulful.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. I think the novel aspect of it, the novelty of it, is a big piece. You know, it's out of the norm and that's always interesting. Right. You kind of pay more attention to things that are not your normal routine.
But then the contemplative thing, I don't know that it's a sad thing. I think we, with all the church has walked through with different seasons. Maybe we do lament and walk through sorrow better than if a church has never walked through anything. So there's that. But I do think it is the contemplative. I think there is a hunger in me and you. And I think for a lot of the people that show up to an Ash Wednesday service to sit thoughtfully in spaces more than like, you know, blast into a place and get all hyped up and so excited. I feel like we always, I always, you know, hate on hype on this podcast. But there is something to a contemplative. You know, you're not hyping up ashes.
You know, you're not. There's no ash cannon that you're firing.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: I mean, I hadn't considered it till now. Maybe next year there'll be an ash cannon. Yeah, yeah, I. I'll answer my own question. For me, it's a relief to me that our faith rounds out all these pieces. And I grew up with a really close relationship with, you know, let's not call it hype. Let's call it charisma and energy and life. And trying to bring joy into everything was really a big theme. Yeah, it's not a funeral memorial service. It's a celebration of life. We're going to bring joy into this. We're going to bring joy into this bit. We're going to kind of skip over the Good Fridays and we're going to remember that our faith in us are born out of not just the death of Jesus, but the resurrection. And I think it left me even subconsciously sometimes in my life feeling a little bit incomplete, like, I don't know how to handle death. I don't know how to handle wondering or not having the next answer or being really confused. I don't know what to do with all these things other than kind of sing louder or, you know, quote unquote, celebrate in the middle of them, which, you know, has its good pieces, too. But for me, it's like this. Oh, yeah, we do have something to say about these things. We do have a way of living in these Things. And we're not just plugging our ears when things get hard or weird or confusing. We have. It's in our ancient literature and text, actually. It's there. They don't shy away from these things, and so why should we? And it's brought this sense of wholeness to my faith that is fun to.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Explore and deeply American to kind of have this independent. I got this. Everything's going to be okay because I'm strong enough and independent minded enough, and I'm going to figure this out. It's very. I think it's served us well culturally to feel that way, but to ignore sitting with all the rest of the human experience. I think it does a disservice religiously to our experience in community, in Christ that so many of the cultures do better, maybe that are more familiar or comfortable with the feeling of, like, life is hard, so we're going to find connection to each other as opposed to life is hard, so we're going to fix it and solve it and blast past it.
And so I think there's something deep at the soul level that needs both. Right.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: And I think you find a lot of those solutions that you were just referencing. We're going to solve it. I think this is part of solving it. So I'm not afraid of that other piece too that says, well, we do want to find solutions. We want to improve, we want to get better, we want to. We want to find answers. I think this is part of finding answers, you know, and I think it's part of not finding answers and understanding that it's, you know, it's God with us that is the hope of this entire thing. It's not God showing us every little bit of everything. That's the hope of everything. Right? And so, yeah, I think it's all. It plays together, which is funny because I want to do. And you could probably, if you heard me preach or you've heard me on this podcast, you probably sense like, wow, Ben has a really hard time with some stuff from his past that's specifically connected to faith. And to be honest with you, every time I get to this point where I'm like, I want to throw all of that away because it's all rotten and whatever, I go, oh, no, that actually has a place too. And not just because it's been a part of my journey, but because that's the other side of completing this faith thing too.
So I do. I want to trash it all. But you can't. You can't throw away the pain and the suffering and the sorrow in the dark of night. And you can't throw away the joy comes in the morning. It's all a part of it.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Right, right. During that service, we serve communion personally to those who come forward, which we don't normally do on a Sunday. We do communion every Sunday, but it's self serve at these moments we serve it to the congregation, which is a vulnerable experience. I noticed this. It's so vulnerable because you're making eye contact. I try to, you know, you don't stare at your feet, but you make eye contact as you're holding the elements. And. And we say the body of Christ given for you, the blood of Christ shed for you while making eye contact. And I don't feel like it's awkward. Maybe it's awkward for the person receiving at some point because of that vulnerability. And there's almost an element of. It's not confession that you'd have in liturgical churches or the Catholic Church, but it starts to edge towards this vulnerability that feels very exposing maybe.
And I think that's really wonderful.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: That vulnerable.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: It brings an edge, I think, to what this is, which is actually sharing something when it's self serve and you can kind of do it all on your own. I think we missed some of that community element, which in the early church, it was a vulnerable thing to sit around the table and share and remember Christ. And we miss that. And so these moments bring that back for me. I don't know if you felt the same thing.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: I'm glad you brought it up. So vulnerable, like that's the best way to put it. And then when putting ashes on someone's forehead, you're touching them.
We don't touch people ever, really. We may shake hands or something like that and you give a little side hug here and there. Touching someone's forehead. There's something so specific about it that it makes me feel vulnerable and then it almost immediately makes me emotional. Like there's something about the holiness of the tradition, but also the human connection, you know. And then you kind of take a second to make sure that you're making the right design. Right.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: I noticed some of the ashes were. Would clump a bit and then several people. I felt terrible on their nose, fall on their nose. And it kind of. But again, there's something like holy about the humanness of the world.
[00:11:38] Speaker A: Even that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I saw some. A couple of our pastor friends posts were such dorks. But the readout and the names of all the different designs, you know, it's like the blob, you know, depending on how it turns out. One's like smoke from a chimney. And then there was one that was a huge cross that was called the Father's Revenge.
I think Josh Butler posted that as very specific humor.
[00:12:05] Speaker B: Pastor Nerd.
[00:12:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: And this was another element. Some of the women that would come forward with the ashes, you kind of have to have them move their hair out of the way on several occasions. I realized, like, this is a very vulnerable moment in a way. It's like, do I part their bangs so that I can do the cross, or do I just go through it? Through it.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: All these things you wouldn't think about, but these are part of that weird process of things that I think matter because afterwards hear people, thank you for serving. Thank you for administering the ashes. I think there's just. We miss so much of this human connection.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: In our modern, like, technological world.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah. It's deeply meaningful.
And there's something about being marked, too, as you walk away as a guy that didn't grow up with this, well, what do I do? Do I leave this on my head for the rest of the day? Do I wash it off? What does it say about me if I wash it off? What does it say about me if I leave it on or wear a hat with it?
Yeah. Something about being marked that, you know, where I was now.
And that's kind of the fallacy of our culture. Right. Is that we're so public and people feel like they know us, but really we're incredibly private, even to our detriment. And to have this thing on us that says, I believe this. And also, I was just at. You knew where I was. And you know what I believe how often that dynamic exists when we're so careful and measured and we have our own PR firms. Right. Based on how we curate our social media, we don't do this. And it's messy. It's on my nose and my forehead. It's everything that you said. And you can see it. Everyone can see it.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah. It blows up this compartmentalization of. Well, that's my church, spiritual, private thing that I do. And then I have my work life or I have my.
My gym or whatever I do afterwards. And you get an ashen cross on your forehead, and it blows up all your ability to keep your world separate. And, of course, you could remove it. I'm sure people do. But it makes you think about it, you know, like, how comfortable actually am I as someone who follows Jesus, and would I even do that publicly? Outside of the safety of these predictable religious spaces.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah. And not as like, well, you gotta prove your faith or anything like that. We're not asking for that to be a part of the exercise. But, yeah, there is something to. Oh, I don't think about this dynamic ever in my life, and I wonder if I should think about it more. I wonder if it should come up more often. How should it come up? These are all really good questions.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm guessing there's probably somebody listening who's leading in a liturgical space and like, oh, isn't this cute?
[00:14:55] Speaker A: I know.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Think it's so amazing and novel to have, and they've been doing it for centuries or whatever. But there's also probably others who maybe have thought about doing some of the things, but it feels too liturgical. And I don't know what's your encouragement to those, because we've found a lot of value in this.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I might even go re. Listen to the last five minutes of this podcast. It is. There's something so deeply vulnerable and connecting. Like, I feel connected in those services in a way that I don't otherwise. And some of that is because we don't feel compelled to wrap it all up in a nice ribbon of bow by the end. Some of it is just even the little touches and the marking and. And I would tell you that it deepens your relationship with your church, and of course, it deepens in yourself a relationship with Christ by encouraging you to move in these ways that, yeah, maybe they're novel because they only come around once a year on the calendar, but, man, it's beautiful. And again, tying yourself into hundreds of years of tradition. I am more and more just a huge fan of. And I think it ties into even remembering that we're dust as, look, you. And, yeah, millions of other people have done this, and you are special and beautiful and all at once, you are not. You're the same. It's so cool.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: Yeah. As you can tell, maybe listening, you know, we are growing in our practices and leadership and faith every time we come upon these moments in, like, the church calendar. And I feel like we learn as we go. And that is maybe a mirror image of what we've been talking through in Mark, where we're kind of sitting, you know, shotgun with Peter as he's having this very terrifying experience.
He's learning and growing, watching Jesus do his thing, you know, in his ministry. And the last three weeks have been, I think, such a challenge to anybody who wants to just kind of be like, I'VE got it. I know all this. You know, I've got Jesus figured out. And I really have felt that the last three weeks you preached the last two, and then I preached this week. But just really challenging that ability, like, for the disciples and the religious leaders where they couldn't just ignore Jesus. You kind of had to deal with what he was asking, or, you know, he's sending people out in the first week, and then. And with the miracle of the feeding the multitudes, he's challenging the disciples. You figure this out, you feed them, right? And then we get to this past week where he says, you know, if you want to follow me and be my disciple, you got to take up your cross, like, such a challenging thing. He just doesn't allow anybody to settle in and get super comfortable with him or with discipleship. And do you feel that, like, when you're preaching this to the church, is that challenge there for you?
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's challenging because of how direct Jesus is. So you're not dealing with prophecy and you're not dealing with something that's in the epistles. That's looking back on an area of ministry. You're very directly being spoken to, just like the disciples were from the mouth of Jesus. The quotes that Jesus has are things that are difficult to deal with right in the middle of everything. And so, yeah, he sends the disciples out and then they come back and he goes. He kind of. Actually from before that point, it's like a little bit dad Jesus in that. He's like, no. And now you guys are going to go try all the things that I've taught you and how vulnerable that feels for the disciples. And then they're finally getting this place of rest. All these people show up and they say, we have a problem. We can't feed all these people. And Jesus goes, oh, yeah, you do that?
[00:18:41] Speaker B: Well, how?
[00:18:43] Speaker A: We can't make enough money to pay for all the things. And Jesus just goes, I just need you to find whatever you can find, but go find it. Go and begin to do the work. And that's the quote you said you feed them is the quote. And, gosh, that's a challenging thing to preach and a gift to preach because of how direct it is. It's almost like the text preaches it for you sometimes. And you go, well, this is the lesson and I'll pull it apart. But Jesus did a pretty good job.
It's a challenge for sure. I feel like the church has been taking on the challenge. I have a lot of conversations with people that aren't just affirming like, wow, what a great message. It's like, ugh, that bit is not for me. And I'm gonna try to lean into it a little bit more as we go. And Mark makes you do that.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And you. The same week you preached that you feed them message, we hosted our good friend Rick and his organization had a homelessness. What's the name of it?
[00:19:41] Speaker A: The Community Homeless Forum.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And so we had community leaders and elected leaders and church members, people and all kinds of folks that are experts locally around homelessness, and we played host to it. So we've been trying to get more into this conversation, But a challenge for us as a church, too, of it can't just be talk. We can't just say, we love people. We have to do something. And for us, right now, the housing crisis is very real in our area. Cost of living is very high, and homelessness is a huge, huge crisis. And so to have that happening on the backdrop of this message about you feed them, it leaves me feeling really challenged of like, okay, what's next then? Because one thing, to have the conversation, host the conversation. I'm glad we're doing those things. But at some point, rubber has to meet the road. Right. And this is true for individuals in our own faith and then also as an institution, as our church, at some point, we can't just say we love people, we have to do it. Yeah, Right.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: And Jesus highlights all the excuses in the story. It's baked in. They're exhausted, and so they go to this place that's supposed to be remote and they can rest. So they're feeling a little bit beat up. They've been doing good work. They've been working hard doing the ministry. And these people show up and they need something. And then after Jesus says, feed them, they say, but what about the resources? And we don't have enough. It's this idea that in every single season, we're still called to this, to feed the people, and it should be a relief. And it's a little stressful to know that it's not our job to come up with every little bit of resource. It's our job to say, here's what we have, and we're going to start with that, and then we're going to allow God to multiply it.
Yeah, it does everything. It pushes everybody into these little bits of faith that maybe we haven't been encouraged to walk into in a long time. And with the community Homeless Forum, I just felt so blessed. There's a Lot of conversation, and very rightfully so, about federal funding and how are these organizations going to survive and what is the new strategy with new government and all these things? Regardless of how you feel about it, I felt so encouraged to look around a room with 150 people and say there is a local movement that's trying to solve this specifically in our neighborhoods. Not waiting for a bill to pass to be this or that. They're actually saying, no matter what happens with the funding and where the money goes, we are going to be problem solvers and people that can find solutions. Which is what I think Jesus is encouraging these people to do. No, we're actually going to gather up all we have, and sometimes it's going to be five loaves, two fish, and we're going to put it at the feet of Jesus and we're going to watch this problem be solved.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it makes me think we can say no to solutions maybe that are not wise or, you know, these are complicated issues. And so this idea that no matter what the solution is, we have to say yes. No, I don't think that's it.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: But I think it's. We're not saying no for our own sake. We're not saying, I'm too tired to do this. So it's a no. Jesus.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: It's always a yes answer.
As much as it concerns me, as much as it concerns my needs or what, what I have to offer, it's always a yes. And there's gonna be reasons why a plan is better than B plan. Of course, there's wisdom and strategy and there's experts and there's smart ways to go about something like a housing crisis. But as much as it depends on me, I'm not gonna be the one that says no for my own sake. And I think that's an important distinction. Cause there's plenty of arguments to be made about why certain strategies are bad or unhelpful or unhealthy. We're not disagreeing with that. But we're not going to be saying, I'm sorry, that's too inconvenient for me to be part of the solution.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's also not, Well, I have $200. What's that going to do? Well, it's not going to solve the whole thing. Well, fine, then I'm going to go do something else with my $200, with my one hour a week, with my whatever we have. It's the presenting of it. And even in the planning, me presenting this plan is what I have. And then when we put five of them together and the bits and pieces are fleshed out, usually come up with a better plan as a result of this community.
Really, Again, to watch the people in the room, it feels miraculous to me. Sometimes I feel so discouraged about the state of whatever. To look around a room and see people that are passionate and gifted and strategic, just like you're talking about. They're not gonna waste funds if they can help it. They're gonna think about this intelligently. That's a miracle as far as I'm concerned, especially with all the division that we have. To see it happening not just in our community, but in our worship center is so cool.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: And also shout out to all of our outreach volunteers and staff and teams that are doing so much. I don't want to make it sound like we've just all of a sudden started thinking about helping people. As a church, we do a lot. I want to say that on behalf of all those that are serving our free food market every month and participating in so many ways that are reaching out to the community, we always, as long as I can remember, have been an outward facing community. And so I don't want to diminish those efforts because now we're talking about something that we haven't really dived into yet until now.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is why you asked the question at the front of this, like, well, what's next? What are we going to continue to do? And can this grow? And can we continue to actually even fund the things that we are doing that are so helpful? I think the free food market.
Yeah. Westsiders are doing an incredible job and I think it's going to continue to grow. And that led us, in the narrative of Mark to Caesarea Philippi. Right. Which is where you were this last week. I want to highlight specifically a moment where you pushed back on this idea that Christian faith could be built around this idea of the ends justifying the means.
You want to pull that apart a little bit for the podcast audience. And it was such a great, powerful moment. That is sobering. Maybe in light of Ash Wednesday, you could kind of feel the room go, you know, in some. In really good, encouraging and some, like, with almost reserve, not pushing back, but. Oh, I have to chew on that for a moment.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's so.
It's so evident in the text, this struggle between power and the way of the cross. And Jesus is having a conversation with his disciples in Caesarea Philippi. Caesarea Caesar is in the name. It is A center for emperor worship.
And so here we have this religiously framed power of the empire is the backdrop by which Jesus is having the conversation with Peter where for the first time, a disciple stands up and says, you're the Messiah. And so, you know, we lose a lot of the context. But to bring it back, look at that contrast. I mean, they're walking in probably rock, throwing distance of a temple to the worship of the emperor and the empire. And Peter said, I think actually you're the king that's promised. And the danger that would have been in that moment for the disciples. And then Jesus says, whoa, whoa, whoa. Before you think we're about to go storm Jerusalem, you need to know what this is actually about. If any of you wants to follow me from this point, you're going to have to take up your cross. And I said this, and I didn't come up with this thought. But, you know, for disciples, it's not metaphorical. We have this metaphorical vision of what it is to take up our cross and follow Jesus. For them, they had to weigh, do I actually want to take up a cross? Do I actually want to be on a cross in the next 30 to 60 days? Because that's what he's saying is going to happen if I keep following. They had to make that decision. And to do that, it flies in the face of what you're asking about, which is the ends justify the means. Do anything to grab power. Once you're in power, then you can enforce the way of Jesus and the kingdom of God will come.
No, no, because by doing that, we actually lose Jesus in the process, and we become an agent of a new empire. That's all it is. And so when we slap Jesus onto our imperial urges and our desire to grab power, we're going to move one way or the other. We're going to move more towards looking like Caesar and more looking like Jesus. And the power grab always puts you in the camp of the empire. Yeah, you know, and we've had some amazing conversations over the last years as Christian nationalism is on the rise. And there's this idea of, you know, in the end, we have to enforce a biblical Christian worldview. And I would push strongly against that. Where do we find Jesus enforcing through military or at the edge of a sword? His way like that, that's Constantine and that's the Holy Roman Empire. That is not the way of Jesus. And so that's been very important, I think, to you and me, to push against this, because it is becoming this idea that's out there pretty strongly right now that, you know, kindness isn't getting the job done.
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: Mercy isn't going to do it. So we have to be free, take control, and enforce this worldview.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: And I'm sorry, whether or not I agree with the worldview is beside the point that Jesus is not in the method. Right.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And what I love how you put it that way. Kindness isn't getting the job done. And that's the feeling. I talk to a lot of Christians that would probably lean more toward that nationalist bent. And it is like this. Yeah, but we tried that. Like, we tried the kind of merciful thing, and now I'm exhausted and a little angry and we just gotta get the job done. And that's not the way of faith. But it's exactly where the disciples were. And I feel so much empathy for Peter, who this is his account. Good for him for sharing this in his account. Where the wild swings of, I think you're the Messiah. And Jesus, like, yeah, good job, buddy. Like, we're figuring this out. And then Peter's like, amazing, now let's gather the army and, well, I'm going to sacrifice. Well, Jesus, you're ruining this for us. I just did the right thing. I'm trying to follow along here. The Messiah has been this. That's what we've been expecting and anticipating. And I bet he feels like the rug is just really pulled out from underneath him at that moment. To go from you're the Messiah to get behind me. Satan is tough stuff for a passionate guy that clearly feels like he should be a leader or the leader in some way, shape or form. Trying to step into those shoes and then feeling like it's been ripped out from underneath them. What a tough run of verses in here in this chapter.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: And it must be important, otherwise Peter probably would have left it out, because it is. It's a little harsh. You know, it paints him in a bad light. But it also gives me hope that you can love your country and you can believe that things that are not going right and according to God's ways could be made right. But it's all in the method. Right.
I don't get the sense that Jesus is condemning all the zealots who wanted to see Israel restored in his day. He's not doing that. He's just saying, if you're expecting me to lead the army to do it, you've got the wrong idea about what God is up to. Because the way that I've come is to seek and save the lost through the cross and like that is the only way.
And I think we get, we make the same mistakes today where it's like, well, I love my country and I love God. Let's put the two together and we're going to, you know, at the edge of a sword or the barrel of a gun, we're going to get this done. And Jesus would, would point us back and say, hey, remember where we're headed? We're headed towards self sacrifice, mercy and the cross.
[00:31:26] Speaker A: The way matters.
[00:31:27] Speaker B: Yeah, the way matters.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Otherwise Jesus could have come and, yeah, just built the greatest army in an and annihilated everybody else that would come against him as enemies and then we would have had. But clearly the way matters because if it doesn't, and it's just the ends and it's not actually the means, then Jesus failed, right, because not everything was changed at a moment's notice. By the end of his life, it was very much evident that this journey and the kindness along the way and the people and the community, it matters. And that's the scariest thing is it is this impatience almost that's causing us to throw out all those things for the sake of. And by the way, the ends, quote unquote, would be such a funky. Let's say you could do by the edge of a sword or through whatever policy you could get in your Christian nationalism at the end, whoever's remaining would fight over their little bit of Christian nationalism that didn't get accomplished the way that they wanted to.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah, whose Christian nationalism we're going to enforce? Is it Christianity? Is it mine? Is it the church down the street? Or is it that other denomination who gets the final say? Of course, this has been the story of the Christian faith when it gets close to power.
But I take confidence in this, that the end is actually if we believe how Jesus and Paul taught, the end is guaranteed. Right? Philippians 2. One day every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. So if we actually trust God for the ends, then all that's left to us is the means. And that's what we have to give over to Jesus and be obedient, to follow him into. That's all we have. So anytime we think, well, the ends are up to us and if we don't do this now, this is the. That's language that completely removes God from the equation and completely removes any kind of trust that he's at work and he's sovereign. That removes that and puts it all on us and our organization skills to get this thing done. And I think it's so backwards where we trust God for the end, that one day every knee will bow. And in the meantime, in the means, we're gonna follow him towards the cross. And that feels, like, hard. And it's really hard.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: Such a great job with the text, Ev, to pull that out. I mean, I've heard this taught on many, many times. It felt very, like, almost airtight or clear by the end of it. This how you brought us through the process of what is a really raw moment. Right. It doesn't. Again, it doesn't come with a certain kind of poetry, but it encapsulates all in one thing, the way of the Christian in following after Jesus and the struggle and the tension that we all feel. I can make jokes about the ends justify the means. And then I can go out and find myself for several weeks working to try to exact my end. Instead of functioning well in means, we all do this. And so what a critical and crucial piece of mark that I'm understanding now that I think that I've underestimated over time.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a big, big moment in the narrative, I think. Big moment for us culturally as Christians in the world today. Like to really wrestle this idea. If Jesus is Lord, what does that mean?
It's huge. And I'm grateful. Now we get three chances. We added a service, so we get three chances to kind of work out the text. So I felt like by number three, I was like, okay, I see what I'm trying to say now. And have you. You've had one week of preaching three times. Again, we used to do this. We used to have three morning services. I've actually, after yesterday, I'm like, ah. I really enjoy having more than one or two times to kind of work through the text, you know?
[00:35:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think the staff hates how much you and I are enjoying it?
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Probably was.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: I hope. Love having three services. I think four would be perfect. As a speaker, I would love four goes.
And I think for both of us, it felt like it has gotten better. You preach the 8:15 and other things kind of get fleshed out and then the 9:30 and then you get another shot.
It's a little depressing when you do have those moments where you're like, oh, 8:15 and the 9:30 felt good. And then, wow, I really fell apart. What happened in that 11 o'clock service?
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Fatigue might kick in, but I think it's great. No, I. I enjoy it. And I think we get. We pay the price when we're not speaking that we have to listen to the other one preach three full times. And so brutal, you know, so it's. We get it. We get it.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: We keep it fresh for each other. Right. Maybe there's a little bit of. There's nuances in there that are just Easter eggs for us to find. And it is. I speak different.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Every time I. It's the same outline, same ideas. I try to land more clearly on some things that I do think should or are resonating, but it's a little bit different every time. There's certainly a different crowd. I think our 8, 15 to our 9, 30 to our 11 is. It feels different.
[00:36:21] Speaker B: Oh, it's a whole different room. Yeah. Yeah. And we're not. We're not preaching 45, 50 minute sermons either. That would be a lot.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: Everyone would hate that.
[00:36:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:30] Speaker A: Including us. That would be brutal.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: I think. I think it takes a certain amount of. I don't know, you either have to be so good and actually bring it, or you just kind of have to have a little too much confidence in yourself to preach more than 40 minutes.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: How many people have you found that are that good?
[00:36:49] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Are there a lot of them?
It's not many.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: It can't be many. Right. That you. After 45 minutes, you're like, yeah, I can. Just give me another 10. Just give me another 10. They're out there.
[00:37:02] Speaker A: I listened to wow. His name's Escape Me now, the Emotionally Healthy Peace Kazaro.
I listened to him do a workshop style teaching for over an hour that I felt very engaged in. That actually is kind of locked into my mind a little bit. But again, it felt like a workshop was a smaller group. And I don't know, something changed about the dynamic preaching. Anybody that's gone over 30 minutes, I'm almost always like, no, you could have shaved off. Yeah, you could have shaved off 5, 10, 15 minutes. Whatever you did. I didn't need that. You could have saved it for next week.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of like not leadership books, not like theological books, but the Christian living style books where you kind of get the idea of what they're trying to say by chapter two.
And we could wrap right there. But they had to fill it up for the publisher. Sometimes it feels like that where I see where you're going and we got it. So you can stop talking now. That same kind of thing.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: Send it back to Lindsay and the worship team, please, so that we can go to brunch. That would be great. That's good. Yeah. I Think it's good. I'm excited for what it means for our church. I've even seen a lot more kind of that community building in between services.
Those who are listening. I'm expecting many of you to at least be involved in a church, if not Westside. That kind of collision of people to talk and to sit and to eat and to have coffee or whatever, between is actually incredibly valuable. Those relational bits and moments, instead of just walking in and out of a church service, they matter to the fabric of the church and to the individual. And I think that's happening a little bit more as a result of this change. And that's exciting.
[00:38:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Timing matters. Spaces matter. It's not a given that people, you know, stop, talk, have coffee. You know, all that has to be kind of designed because there's a very natural thing, at least where we're at Pacific Northwest, maybe our town, maybe more our church, but where people kind of come in quick and leave quick. And so I think we have to be kind of intentional to make these spaces that happen. Otherwise people are like, on to the next thing.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. There's in my mind the idea that the Bend person, who on average has moved here within the last five, six years, picked Bend on purpose. They picked their schedule, and they kind of curated a certain kind of lifestyle on purpose, which is great. And Bend is so good for that. I have noticed that growing up in certainly a different dynamic of a community, mostly poor people and families.
It's not that quote, unquote, we did Community better. You just kind of had to, like, you were gonna be at the football game because what else were you gonna do? And so we were an 800 person town for a little while when I was younger, and you'd have 1200 people, a football game. I don't know how the math works out. Right. But you kind of, like, you need it. You had to, because what else? And so you accidentally did Community. And I think sometimes we can hit a certain level of.
Of curation where we've picked and selected and checklisted our way through exactly how we want our life to be. Well, you don't have to be in Community in those. In a lot of ways, unless you do it on purpose. And this kind of is that purposeful move.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah. I went to my niece's musical at Mountain View where I graduated high school, and it was, you know, great production, very, very cool. These kids are doing a good job and pretty sparsely attended, you know, And I was remembering back before I was in high school. We Did Grease or the school Did Grease. And I remember it was like the whole play.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah, Years ago they did the Country. Great.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: That's cool. The musical Grease. And I remember like the whole town came out and there was like it was a struggle to get a ticket to a high school production of a musical. I mean, that just doesn't. Maybe it happens elsewhere, it doesn't happen around here because it's just a different time. You know, people have plenty to do and when they don't, they have their phones and we have the whole world to explore from the comfort of our homes by ourselves, in isolation. And that's sad, right?
[00:41:06] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I like the idea that something that's happening here is a big deal because it's, it's happening here. And I mean, even like when plays come out to the west coast or LA or Seattle, you know, like Hamilton comes out, there's this like, well, I can watch Hamilton on Disney. I was like, I kind of am bummed that that's even an option. Like, it's sad. I want you to feel like you have to go or make the pilgrimage, to go watch whatever Broadway show or all that. It's. There's something wonderful about it. And community building, we just don't have to anymore. There's so many options.
[00:41:42] Speaker B: And I know some churches, even large churches are like doing away with their live streams on Sunday mornings to make it a point that you really, you need to come here in person. I don't know. We don't do that. You know, we want to encourage anyone who can't make it to be able to participate. But this is the weird challenges we have right now. How do you make face to face interaction a priority but also not exclusive? I don't know.
[00:42:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know that getting rid of a livestream is a solution. I think the discipleship of people to find community somewhere.
I think church community is incredibly important. I don't think it should be the only community that you have where you're interfacing with people and being kind of rubbed the wrong way by someone's statement or thought. You know, I hope that people are finding this in, in school situations or in their work or in interests and hobbies. I hope it's happening because it could be pretty easy in Bend to just live exactly where I want to live, do what I want to do, and then get on the ski lift, hopefully by myself and maybe have one awkward conversation with one stranger and then get off and do this exactly how I want to do. I think that's the point. It's not. Come to Westside and stand in our atrium for a while. I really, really. This community piece is incredibly valuable. I do think you could flip it on the other side. I think church is one of the things that's actually doing this best, though.
[00:43:02] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Overall, how many places do you come and sit in a room and sing with other people?
Just doesn't exist. Right. With the exception of a concert here or there.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: And these are the elements, probably why churches are growing like our church is growing. And you can get good content anywhere. You can get better preachers than us in a heartbeat on YouTube.
So all the elements are out there, but it lacks connection. I think people do show up for connection and so their family can engage together in something and, you know, can't underestimate, I think, the draw and the value of that.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Well, we're banking on it because we haven't gotten famous on YouTube yet.
At least I haven't. I don't know. Nobody's told me I got famous on there. Maybe you are. Yeah.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: No, no, I. I think. I think we have to get above, like 200 views on our.
On this podcast. Like, people can look right now. Is it above 200? No. Okay, well, I guess we haven't made it yet.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: If it's not above 200, just assume you're one of the first people here. You're on it. Quick. Don't look at the publish date. Don't do that. Just plow ahead.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. All right, well, we're now heading full on towards Easter and looking for the next few weeks. We're going to be on every single week until Easter behind the message. So check that out as we go and we'll continue to. Yeah. Look towards the resurrection.
[00:44:25] Speaker A: And thanks to everybody that makes this podcast happen. We need a regular credits section. Lindsay and Justin and Sam and Gwen that in some way shape or form. Touch this before it gets out onto social media or produce it out there. Thank you so much.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: That's right. We'll see you next week on behind the Message.
