Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Ebony Orker. And we just did one of these seconds ago.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: I was laughing because I forget we're on video. And so I said that first bit, and then I just stared straight up at the ceiling.
We're on. We're on right now. It's time to be on. Oh, my gosh. What in the world?
[00:00:37] Speaker B: And the big thumbs down. I don't.
People can see you. Ben, chill out.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: I really kind of want to record the couple bits, the minutes before we actually jump into here.
You know, for instance, you playing that unsolved mystery sound just a second ago. That was very eerie.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: That comes stock, I guess, with this recorder device.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: So that guy, I've, like, needs to walk out. You know, in the case of the alien snowshoe er with the.
What was his name?
Oh, it's seared into my brain.
[00:01:13] Speaker C: John.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: John.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Walsh.
Guys, I'm close.
[00:01:23] Speaker C: I'm close.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: I feel like that is close. That is close.
[00:01:26] Speaker A: Is it okay?
[00:01:27] Speaker B: I think so.
[00:01:28] Speaker C: I'm gonna look it up.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Such a particular voice, particular jacket. God, I loved that show growing up. I really loved it and was frightened by it.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
It had the more eerie vibes than, like, America's Most Wanted was all crime, you know? Yeah. Unsolved Mysteries was like, this could be anything. Aliens.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And the, you know, Most Wanted was like, we're the good guys, and we're gonna find the bad guys together. Yeah. And then the other one was like, the world is kind of uncontrollable. Right. Who knows? Flying saucers, anything goes.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: There was so much we didn't know in the early Ninet, guys.
[00:02:04] Speaker C: The host name was Robert Stack.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Okay. Robert Stack. You were not close at all.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: John Walsh.
So close.
Just knocking on the door.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Oh, man.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: People screaming at their speakers right now being like, John Walsh.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: No way.
[00:02:20] Speaker C: No idea where that came from.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Speaking of the early 90s, we all three with our spouses went to Seinfeld this week.
[00:02:29] Speaker C: Yes, we did.
[00:02:29] Speaker B: Came to town, obviously, an iconic comedian, and it was great.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Right.
I thought he did great.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: I shouldn't say surprising. Obviously, he's an icon, but when you're that famous, you can kind of phone it in. And so I was worried he would do that, but he didn't.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: And the environment, the amphitheater, is not made for comedians. If you've gone and watched stand up, usually you're in a room that maxes out at 100. It's dark, the ceilings are low, and there's a small stage with a single spotlight. And this is a ginormous concert.
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Thousands of people spread out on the grass. Like, it's not. Yeah, it's not a funny vibe.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: So I was worried for him. I don't know if he knew what he was getting into, you know, and he was great. Really funny. Energy was good. The whole high energy. Like, high energy.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: The dude is 71. I know. Because of the show. I think we all think of him at permanently at, like, 43 years old.
He's 71, and he did, what, an hour and 20 minutes? Yeah. And the energy was, like, high the entire way through. It's impressive.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: Has he always done his sets that high energy? I had, like, CDs and. And stuff of his early stuff. I don't remember that. Almost, like, breathless. No, you gotta come get it. You know, kind of a thing.
[00:03:40] Speaker B: That was a good impression.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: He did it a lot.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: He did. And it was windy. And so he's wearing a suit and tie, and the suit's like, flying, flapping in the wind, and he.
That pace. And it was. Yeah, it was a thing to behold.
I don't know why I was so.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Worried about him, but I was like, hey, man, this is going to be a long set. You got to save some energy. He knows what he's doing. Clearly, he doesn't need my input.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: And it was. It was really great. It was a fun night. You guys both watched the show?
[00:04:11] Speaker C: Oh, yes.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Born and raised on it.
[00:04:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Oh, Seinfeld, the show.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Yeah, the show.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: I was like, yeah, we were all there, Ben. Yeah. Yeah.
I don't.
I've watched episodes as an adult, probably most of them. Yeah. But I never, like, watched all the way through. And, you know, we were all pretty young when it was airing, so, yeah.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: It was one of the things. And we watched a fair amount of sports. We only got two channels when Seinfeld was really going. We got NBC, and then we got abc if you climbed up on the roof and adjusted the antenna. And that was kind of the only choices. And so Seinfeld was one of the only things that was fairly regular in my house that wasn't necessarily connected to church, school, or sports programming. It was just one of the only things that kind of popped out. And I remember, like, really loving that 30 minutes, wanting to be at home for it, wanting to stay up for it if it was on later.
Yeah, it was one of those kind of few things that popped out And I attached myself to it really early on.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, those were the days. I mean, people will never know the intensity of rushing somewhere to catch your show.
And that was like, what you had to do. It was like, you know, oh, we gotta get across town quick. It's starting. It's starting. You know, like, when would you have seen it?
[00:05:28] Speaker A: If you missed it? When would you have seen that episode of Seinfeld? Yeah, you would have had to hear about it from your friends. And then until maybe they. Were they rerunning that season in that off season? Like, would it. Would it go break? And then they rerun the same one. So maybe that was your best shot. But then even then, you had to get lucky and find the one that you made anyway. Yeah, really such an interesting.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: I remember, you remember tgif, the Friday night lineup, And I think it started with Perfect Strangers with Larry and Balki. Bartokamus.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Holy cow. I have no memory of these exchanges.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: They're Greek cousins that move into.
I think Larry was like a lawyer in New York City. And then Balki comes over from the old country.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Like an odd couple.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Yeah, odd couple for sure. But there was a. It was like a two hour special. And so the time of it changed and we missed it. And I remember I'm probably like 7 years old, like crying in my bedroom because I missed Balki. The.
And you're right, you wouldn't be able to see it again.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: What were you gonna do?
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Yeah, you'd have to wait for some rerun someday. I was so sad to miss the finale.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: Yeah, those lineups were Mad about yout was in that group for a while, right? The Paul Reiser Helen Hunt Show.
And I developed such a crush of Helen Hunt for a good long amount of time when I was a kid. Mad about you Friends. Right. Was part of that. Cheers is on the early end of Seinfeld. Cause Seinfeld took that slot, I think, or was in there somewhere.
[00:07:00] Speaker B: And then you got like Family Matters, Full House.
Those are in there. Yeah.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Trying to make up this big chunk because you would. You would sit down and then get into the rhythm of commercials every so often. But there was the idea of this 3 hour TGIF or 2 hour big slot is so much fun.
It's kind of sad how much fun.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: I'm remembering right now.
[00:07:23] Speaker A: And it's really just around sitting around the TV and getting chips on commercial breaks.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Yeah, we don't have that thing now where everyone watches the same thing. You know, you all have your own streaming things and sometimes they Cross over. But back in the day, it was like everyone had seen Fill in the Blank on the tv. Yeah.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: It takes so much to what? The closest one I think that I've experienced is that. Oh, my gosh, I can't even think of it.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: The Coldplay show with the jumbo trap.
That's the first time in years that the whole nation has seen the same thing.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Uniting America. No. What's the Ben Stiller Apple TV show that we're all.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: Severance.
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Severance. I feel like you can have a conversation about severance with just about anybody. But that. That's one of the only things I can think of.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Nobody. Nobody's touching everything. If only we could bring back Unsolved Mysteries with John.
[00:08:13] Speaker C: It's still around.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: John Walsh.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: It's still around.
[00:08:15] Speaker C: Yes, I think it's still around.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: I bet it's not as good.
[00:08:18] Speaker C: There's no way. Or it's just scarier. That's the source of my anxiety. I'm convinced.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Well, it doesn't help that we can just Google stuff while we're watching and be like, well, what about this? Because in the 90s, it was. This is the greatest. Truth is, whatever Robert Stack's saying.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you had a question, you'd be like, go consult my Encyclopedia Britannica collection.
But we're still paying on it. You know, it's $130 a month forever.
And we have a whole bookshelf.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Or consult your family, who's probably got their own crazy stories about something they saw in the woods one time.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: They're just feeding into your fear.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: That is true.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: We have our own big questions for a fantastic transition that I just.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Basically, that's a perfect segue.
I was looking for moment to pivot and man, you just. You just did it without the moment. You created the moment. Good job.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: I know. I just made it.
I like this series.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah. This is the second year we've done this. Second summer in a row.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Is that right?
[00:09:12] Speaker B: I don't think we called it Big Questions last year, actually.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Same idea, but.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: Same idea. Yeah.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Why do you think this hits with people?
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think in the summer, people are hit and miss. A lot of people are traveling. We're all traveling.
And so you definitely want something to. Where. If you just. If you miss a lot last week, and you came this week, you don't feel like you're not following. Right. So I think it's helpful for the summer to have kind of these one off things.
Truth is, I Think people have a lot of questions about faith and who Jesus is, church, all these things.
And to open the door and say, hey, you can actually question and have some questions that are hard to answer, I think is a relief.
Do you think?
[00:09:58] Speaker A: Is that kind of it? Because I think in some of these cases, when I go down the list, we are giving some answers to big questions in cases, I don't know if that we're always bringing up the most satisfying answers or in some cases, like me this last Sunday, I'm not really answering the question at all. Kind of talking about the things in the periphery of the question.
Do you think then because of that it is kind of the relief of us even acting out or asking the questions from the stage?
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, one of the weeks you were on vacation, I talked about doubt and feeling far from God and kind of made that point. Like these are big questions. The series not called Big Answers, Big Answers. You know, like we're actually asking these questions as a part of us coming to terms honestly about the things that we struggle with within the faith, with no illusion. Illusion that we're going to come out on the other side of these 25 minute talks being like, well, I'm good now all my doubts are settled. Or now I know the perfect will of God, or now I know why bad things happen to good people.
No, but to acknowledge, even from the stage, from you and I. Yeah, I don't know. You said that yesterday. I don't know. And I think that that honesty is maybe one of the most.
It's a lifeline to those who have been fed up and maybe left, left their faith or left the church years ago even, because it felt like cliched answers and stuff that just didn't ring true, you know?
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I do find a lot of comfort in it. And I wonder if it's just as part of the process of getting older. What I found in certainly inside of Christianity, definitely inside of Scripture and then even outside of that with just old mythologies and, you know, whether it's the Greeks or the Romans and even other religions, I find a lot of comfort in this fact that all of us, for a long, long, long time throughout the history of humanity, we're trying to understand purpose and we're asking that question, what is our purpose as humanity? What is my purpose as an individual?
We're trying to discover what it means to get older or to be young. You know, there's all kinds of things, the fountain of youth and different devices that we've used to Talk about these insecurities that we have and questions. And I actually find a lot of comfort in the fact when I can sit in a room, maybe at Westside, and listen to somebody with some credence and some authority say, yeah, these questions are actually a part of the entire journey. They're not a little glitch or a reason that you don't have faith. This is actually the ancient thing that all of us have been wrestling with for a long time, time. And then to give oxygen in the room to say, and we can do this. We can ask these questions. It really is a beautiful thing.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And you bring up a good point. And I'm not. I'm no expert on Judaism, other religions.
I mostly focus on Christianity in my studies. But I do know that modern Christianity does a real poor job compared to, like, how rabbis would. Would train their followers and disciples into asking good questions, wrestling with mystery, settling down in mystery and what you don't know, and also engaging in debate. And I think sometimes our worldview can push against all that and just be like, no, just here's the answer. Just be okay with it.
And I think we're wired in a way where to sit in the waters of uncertainty and not that we don't know anything that we believe. I'm not saying that at all. But to not feel like we can't be honest when doubts arise or when we don't feel like we have the answers, to push away from that. I think we miss something that is needed for our souls. Right.
And even on these weeks where we've just been honest with our own struggles in these different areas that we've been discussing, I feel like you feel the church kind of leaning in, like, oh, that's me too. You know, I feel that way too. I have doubts, too. Sometimes I feel far from God too. Pastor Steve was back a couple weeks ago, and he talked about in their sorrow and grief, there was a season where they stopped praying just because they just felt like, does it even matter? And I think that kind of honesty, man, what a relief for somebody also walking through grief, wondering if God is listening to just know, like, they're not alone in their. And they're wondering.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: And what Steve does really well, too, is he talk. He speaks honestly about that moment of we just stopped praying because it didn't feel worth it. And he doesn't say. And so because I've been through all that, let me save you all the trouble and the hard time. You have to keep praying. He actually invites you into that season with him too. Like some of you going through deep grief and sorrow, welcome into this place where you. You feel like prayer is a waste of your time. And then also welcome into the next step from that. And then welcome back into a life of prayer and relationship, just understanding again. Part of the honesty is that, yeah, we're going to walk through these seasons of doubt. And your and I job as leaders of Westside Church isn't to just rip people out of those seasons and places as quickly as possible through inspiration and laughter and whatever. Sometimes instead, it's about to sit with people in those places as they slowly make their way further in, in some cases and out. And that's a relief too. Again, it's kind of giving us, it's putting us in our places and positions that I think we actually belong along with Jesus. You know, there's a reason, I think that Paul a few times in scripture uses the hope of Jesus as an anchor for the soul. The anchor is the only thing that is sitting on the bottom beneath all of the chaos, unmovable. But if we are the people in the boat that are anchored to Jesus, that doesn't mean the waves still aren't crashing and there isn't.
There's uncertainty and we're moving up on the deck of this entire thing. The anchor is the thing that we do feel like we have an answer with. That is the cornerstone of our faith that is secure and immovable. But it doesn't mean the rest of it doesn't shake us up or wonder what's going to happen next.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah, a great picture of this in the gospels is John 11, where Lazarus has died and it's not long.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Right?
[00:16:25] Speaker B: It's like 30 verses or something.
But we see so clearly how a Jesus doesn't fix the problem before it happens. Lazarus dies.
He shows up to frustration, doubt, and questioning of his care from Martha.
And then rather than say, stop crying, everybody stop crying, I'm here and check out what's going to happen.
He doesn't do any of that. He says this very for us. We like to think we understand it for that. It was very mysterious where he says, I'm the resurrection and the life. And then he cries after that.
I mean, what a beautiful thought that here is Jesus, we believe the incarnated God saying what is true and then still entering into a place of sorrow and grief with the people he loves. And then from that place of sitting, that place of I'm here with you in your suffering, then whatever comes next is pure grace. And for Mary and Martha, they got their brother back. You know, he calls Lazarus out and he's resurrected.
And we always want to skip to the end. We always want to skip to, okay, how is he going to fix this?
The hope I find in that story is that he was willing, when things weren't fixed yet, to be fully present, fully connected to the moment. And so, you know, on the worst days, I'm just. I take such confidence or comfort in knowing, like, I don't know if it's going to get fixed tomorrow.
But, man, it's so good to know that Jesus is here with me in this and not, like, superficially or just, hey, cheer up, Evan. It's going to be okay because I'm here. No, he's like, he's here weeping with those who weep. And I think to try to sidestep that in our own lives, to sidestep the doubt, sidestep the questions or the sorrow or the suffering sometimes removes us from the place that Jesus is waiting for us in. He meets us. He meets us in the suffering, in the hard spots. You know, I think that's the promise of the Jesus of the Gospels, and we've turned it. Sometimes I don't always want to be negative on prosperity people, but it's easy to be negative because I think it's pretty bad theology. But this idea of Jesus only meets us when we get our boat and our paycheck doubles.
I don't know where that Jesus is in my Bible, but I see one that is acquainted with sorrows and meets us in our suffering.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: Jesus has a stomach for the process that I don't know that all of us have.
It's even what you're saying about the story of Lazarus. And I believe earlier in that text, you find out that he heard a little bit earlier. Right. They sent a message to him, and then he waits another day.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: And he doesn't grab his stuff. And like any of us would, so. And so the one that you love or your friend or your family is about to die or might die. We would get on the flight and we would get in the car and we would go. And Jesus doesn't run. He doesn't sprint. He doesn't grab his things. He doesn't sound the alarm. He doesn't rush off.
Which, of course, is the reason for Mary and Martha's frustration when he shows up. Well, if you would have been here then, things probably would have ended up different. But now he's been dead. He's been dead three days. He's actually gone beyond Anything. And Jesus has a stomach for this stuff that we just don't. And that's part of that mystery. And the reason that we can't answer the questions particularly well in every situation is that all of the math in our humanity says, this should be his reaction, this should be his frustration, this should be his level of hurry and urgency. And Jesus very rarely if ever matches those things.
And we don't know why exactly, other than. The only thing that I can think of is that there is something for us in the process that Jesus wants to invite us into now again, I had a lot of people come up to me in a good way after this last weekend and say, well, Jesus wants us to go through.
He wants us to learn and to understand, to be formed, which is all things that we believe, right? And I'm like, yeah, but why can't we just throw all that out too?
Just form us like that, make it instantaneous. There's something in here, though, that God clearly finds value in us experiencing.
And I don't know why.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: And the. I don't know, it's not a modern invention. Like, we've gotten somehow so far away from the core of our faith that now we don't know, but. But because we're missing out. And you go all the way back. And the mark of people following Jesus oftentimes is uncertainty in their faith. And another example, John the Baptist when he's in prison. And Jesus hears word of it and then he.
This is really interesting, the text. Once he hears that John has been arrested, he doesn't move closer to where John's at to try to do something. He goes further away from it. As if to be like, I don't want to. I'm not going to end up there. So I'm out with it. And so him and his disciples go further away from.
And then John's like, what the heck? You know? And in that same passage, Jesus is like, there's no one greater born to women than John.
So he's like both saying, this guy's the best of the best.
And the obvious question would be, Jesus, are you going to break him out? Yeah, right? And Jesus basically says, nope, I'm not.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Put some mileage between us, but encourage.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Him, let him know that I'm legit. You know, the blind see, the deaf hear.
And then he says this phrase. He says, and blessed are those who don't stumble because of me. And so he's like inviting us into this trust in a way that he knows is going to be really hard it's not a trust that says, trust in me and you're going to get everything you ever wanted and dreamed of. And he says, like, blessed are those who follow after me. And when it gets so confusing and hard because I don't do what you think I should, blessed are you. If you don't stumble on that, I'm going to trip you up. That's basically what he's saying. I'm going to trip you up. Just like I'm tripping John up right now. And that's like the invitation of faith. So, of course we have big questions, but will we stumble over Jesus in the process or will we.
Well, we, you know, throw ourselves into this.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's really good. Do you guys have a favorite big question? I'll run through the list real quick. How good is good enough?
The idea that, can we reach this point where finally we've paid enough penance or we've repented enough, or we become good enough in order to call it finally good? Can I find peace in an anxious world?
What is God's will?
Can I have doubts?
Does God actually answer prayer? And why doesn't God fix the world? Any one of those particular conversations jump out to you as a favorite, so to speak?
[00:23:35] Speaker C: I liked Does God answer prayer?
I think.
I think that's a tricky one for anyone who's walked with Jesus for a while because you see, you've seen a lot, you've experienced a lot. The longer we live, I think the more loss and disappointments we experience, and that can be challenging as someone in the faith who is taught prayer is important and that God answers prayer. And you read scripture, even some of the scriptures Steve spoke about, keep asking, keep seeking, keep knocking. And I know lots of people who have done that for a really long time and their prayer is. Prayers were not answered.
And so I think it's important to acknowledge and to talk about and not, you know, kind of how you guys said at the beginning, not just gloss over it with cliche answers. And yeah, I think to talk about it and acknowledge it and work through it together as a community, even if we don't answer that question right on the nose, you know, I think it's important.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: Great call having Steve for that one, by the way.
He continues to masterfully discuss that process.
And, you know, it's a weird thing to say. Steve's experience in prayer and grief and loss has led him to this really, like, expert level understanding of those things. And it's heartbreaking to watch him teach through those things. Again. And it's also one of the greatest gifts I feel like we've received in our leadership is to watch him again talk through those things.
And it's evidenced by the reaction. It's evidenced by the Instagram numbers when we post a clip.
He is so connected in that topic, and it's really worth the time to listen and listen again on that. He does a great job.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm always concerned, you know, we don't want to make everything so heavy, that all of our weekends are about grief or something.
And. And yet it comes up because I think that is the life that everyone lives. If you never talk about struggles or difficulty, like what are, you know, it just becomes a weird, like, positivity exercise.
But I do feel like, although these topics came up a lot in this year, I didn't feel like it was overly heavy or that we were, you know, just kind of bringing people so far down. I feel like there's a way to do this, I guess, maybe where we can be honest and talk about it all together. And I think the last message that you gave this past week is a good example of that.
You talked about the beauty of life and the time with your family around board games and doing this wedding up on Mount Hood and just the beauty of that juxtaposed to the terrible parts of the world and life and death and all this stuff.
But it's not, not one or the other. This is the whole picture of what we walk through as humans. Right.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: And that is the trick for us as a speaker.
I even think about that introduction and I bring in these beautiful moments that I've seen as a little bit of a palate cleanser for what I'm about to talk about so that we don't just immediately dive into the deepest waters.
And that's the trick for us in this life. Right. You don't breeze past the beautiful moments and ignore laughter because it is the greatest thing in the world.
And we're also not ignorant enough to believe, any of us, that we can avoid the struggle, whatever that looks like for us. And some might look like greater struggle or grief than others, but all of us will encounter and discover that. And so, yeah, it's a public speaking challenge. And it's also, maybe even at a meta level, like a perfect example of what we're actively walking through as human beings.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And you do a great job, Ben. At.
Yeah, just it's. It's speaking chops, I think, not to be too self congratulatory, which I've Heard that we used to be much more on this podcast, so we're trying to avoid that.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: Oh, have we.
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Have we done that?
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Who gave that feedback?
[00:27:45] Speaker B: Okay, I'm not gonna sell her out.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: It was my wife, wasn't it?
[00:27:50] Speaker B: One of our wives.
Love that.
But I think to not just make everybody sad and yet talk about, honestly, things that matter.
That's the job. Yeah, that's the job. And then always ending with you pantomiming.
Squats. Squatting, technically, yes. That's what you did. But no, your metaphor about somebody trying to break a record doing squats and failing, very memorable. I don't think any of us will forget that.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: I thought about that in the front row during worship in the first service, and I. So I was really trying to hit this. Paul says that, you know, he compares hope to groaning in Romans.
And I was like, what's an interesting and appropriate story that would be memorable? That has to do with groaning. And I can't think of many things, but the weight room certainly popped to mind.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Well, and kind of brilliant because Paul uses the childbirth metaphor for creation is groaning.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: And I didn't want to go there.
[00:28:56] Speaker B: And you don't go there.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: Paul shouldn't have gone there. He's a single man. Yes. What is he doing using childbirth as the metaphor? Like as if you know Paul.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Anyway, Steve Nichol's gone there enough for all of us.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you don't know. Listener Steve has played the audio of his wife Suzanne, giving birth to their son Hudson.
Not during a message, but he's talked about it many times, told the story, and then he played the audio for.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: The staff multiple times. I've heard it multiple times.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Have you really?
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Which is just terrible. That's a terrible thing.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: He hasn't done it on the platform yet.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: No, I don't. We wouldn't.
I'd veto that if I knew it was.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Gwen, if Pastor Steve ever sends you an audio file, do not load it in.
[00:29:44] Speaker C: Don't listen to it.
[00:29:45] Speaker A: Listen to it, though. You just need to listen to it. Delete it.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
All that to say, Ben, you wisely pivoted off of stories about the birth of your children into a weight room scenario.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: So that was probably.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Well, that is that.
Yeah, it works. In my mind there is this, like, painful vein popping hope that happens in the middle of a lift where in your mind you're going, I could still do this. We can make it. And then sometimes you push all the way through that, and it kind of is the groaning that almost propels you to the completed lift.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: And it is kind of gross, like, to describe it. And, you know, even as you were getting laughs talking about, I'm like, okay, yeah, keep moving, Ben. I know, and I think that's the point, right?
It's like, yeah, we're not talking about this pleasant. Like, oh, we have this nice hope. It's not the heavenly vision that is the hope.
It's the struggle that speaks to. We still have hope that something is on the other side of this. Yeah.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: There's like, an intimacy to the groaning that is exemplified even in all of our lives. Like, have.
Have any of us in the room, as much time as we've spent together, have we ever strained so hard that we've been groaning in an environment together?
Like, there's a thing that is like, I don't want to try that hard in front of my friends that seems too vulnerable and too scary.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: And I can't imagine a scenario in.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Which I would do that in a room that you guys are in, because like you said, it's kind of gross.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: And it's.
[00:31:30] Speaker A: The things that drive us to that point are deep pain and hurt and effort.
And in a world that's become so nonchalant about so many things or, you know, trying to gloss over stuff like that. It is. That moment that Paul is describing is very awkward. And so we should feel that in the room. When we discuss it a little bit without going over the top of the.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Speaker, it reminds me of. I've heard these wild families where if one of the women in the family is gonna have a baby, like, the whole family is in the room. Have you heard, like, people do this.
[00:32:08] Speaker C: I know people do that.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Yes. In laws and siblings. And I'm like, what are you talking about?
That's absurd. I tried to get out of the room every time I had a child, but that's not. It's not cool anymore. You can't sit outside and wait with your golfing buddies. I guess that's not cool anymore. I get that it's frowned upon, but. No, but to have extended family in the room, it speaks to that idea of.
This is an awkward vulnerability that looks towards. In hope. What is next? You feel that, I guess when you talk about the state of the world, there's so much. Much tension and dissonance in the world that we exist in. And to frame that as these are the. These are the signs that there's maybe hope still. Not everything is given over to just. We've all given up.
No, there's a struggle and a push towards.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: It's deeply personal.
And the church. I think this will be exemplified in moments where we say we're praying for maybe politicians that we would say are in opposition to what we care about or what we do. And to have to be praying for that and have people come alongside us and go, ugh, you're praying for that? And it's like, oh, yeah, it's this vulnerable. I have hope for this whole thing, not just in the things that I'm currently aligned with or interested in, but the whole of humanity. I'm praying and contending for those things. That's a vulnerable place to be. Right. To help reach out to the homeless population around you and to have the responses of different people be like, that is hopeless. And why would you try that? You know that they're only going to. And to look back at them in the face and say, but I care. I have hope for this entire thing. That's a vulnerable place to be, too.
It's much easier to just discount everything and say, well, you're right, it's probably not going to get fixed and it's all going to go in the direction that it's going to go. But, Paul, Jesus is asking us to.
To be vulnerable and to groan and to strain and to give effort and sweat to things that so many people think we should give up on.
[00:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah, cynicism comes for hope. I mean, it is the enemy of our hope that cynicism is the thing that is so directly opposed to the hope we have in Christ. And maybe that's the thread throughout these big question topics is we're pushing against that cynicism that says it's not even worth it.
The answer isn't out there for you. And so don't even worry about it. Just give up on your faith or give up on the church or give up on Jesus. It's not worth it. And that cynicism, I think, lurks and comes for all of us and to push against that, I mean, how many of our heroes are just the most angry cynics?
It's those who dare to hope in the face of impossible odds that we say, that's what I admire, you know, and yet in our own lives, we're like, well, I'm. I've lived enough to know that's not going to work.
Good for you. Yes, good for you. But let's, let's push against that and dare to hope.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah, and there's.
Maybe I'll correct myself with all these big questions.
We do not have all the answers to these questions. Within the ancient texts of our faith or, you know, within orthodoxy, there are easy answers, if you'd like to take them, that I think come from the cynic heart. That I could answer all of these questions with a way that would be a little bit of a knee jerk and would make me feel safe and comfortable in the meantime. But none of those answers are vulnerable or actually encompass the entire journey that I'm trying to take on the way with Jesus, which is just much, much, much, much harder.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think you're right.
You can have a pendulum that goes from easy cliches or deep dark cynicism.
And if you grew up in one, maybe you swing to the other.
And again, not that right in the middle is the right way. I'm just saying it's probably not either of those things. It's not the bumper sticker Christianity. And it's not giving up because the world is a deep, dark place and we don't know where God is in it.
Somewhere else is the voice of Jesus calling to the disciples on the side of the lake and saying, come, follow me.
[00:36:33] Speaker A: That's so true. I grew up with the cliches, and so I found a ton of comfort in the deep, dark cynicism because I didn't know necessarily that the cynicism was correct. It just felt at least more honest to me. And so now I naturally will kind of trend toward that thing until Jesus calls me out. And I don't swing all the way back into just cliches. But to find that answer that, yeah, isn't necessarily in the middle, sometimes it's a three dimensional puzzle. Right? It's not just right or left. It's up into the right and back into the left a little bit.
The answer's a little bit more difficult to discover and plot, but there is. There's something there, and that's part of the journey.
So, yeah, maybe whoever you are that's listening to this and you feel yourself swinging from one side to the other, that's part of the process too. But I agree with you. Neither of those destinations is your final one.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: And I think I relate so much in the story of Zacchaeus to Zacchaeus, who's.
I might get it wrong, but, you know, he's a Jew who then goes to work, tax collector for Rome, which speaks to cynicism. Right? You're like, you know what? I'm just gonna. I'm gonna be out for myself and get what I got.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: However this goes, I Need to get paid.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah, right. And so he lives this life very successful, corrupt, takes from the people.
And so you see him probably exemplify this swing from probably devout as a little kid all the way over into cynic. And yet then Jesus comes to town, and there's something so compelling about the presence of Jesus in town that, like, he seeks out this hope just to see him. Like, it's almost like this thing that resonates in me of, like, I'm cynical.
I don't even know. I'm just kind of going to figure this out on my own because I don't even know where God is in all this. But then Jesus is in my street, and I got to know, like, is there something to this?
And then when he makes this movement to see Jesus, Jesus, like, changes everything, you know? And it's like this radical encounter precipitated by the cynic saying, I don't know, but maybe I gotta see it for myself. And I think that's the invitation for all of us who tend towards cynicism.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: That's really interesting. I never thought of Zacchaeus as a cynic. You're completely right.
So many of the stories are about broken people that are so clearly broken and know they're broken, they're outcasts, which is a beautiful part of the story, but it's blind people and it's lepers and they come to Jesus and the storyline is clear. I wonder how many cynics come to Jesus and then have that kind of conversion moment where they see the light through his teaching or even just his. His friendliness and his relationship and hospitality. I wonder how many times that happens. Does that happen in other moments there?
Maybe Martha is a little bit of a cynic. Yeah, I could see that.
[00:39:30] Speaker B: Yeah, they're there. You know, even the John story, he kind of becomes a cynic after who knows how long. You know, is it a year in a hole in the ground in the desert? He's like, I don't know about this Jesus guy. I thought he was the one. I'm not sure. So, you know, it's there for sure.
But, yeah, the Zacchaeus one.
Yeah. I would just hope when I get to that point of just immersing myself in a cynical mindset, that something is sparked or invited back to take another look at Jesus. And I hope that's true for lots of people who maybe are giving this whole faith thing or church thing one more shot, or they're about to peace out and they're in our seats or they're around this community. I hope that feels like Jesus passing by, not because of us, but because we're inviting him to do that. Yeah.
[00:40:27] Speaker A: We don't want to be too self congratulatory on this podcast as we have been. Maybe those. Even today we have been.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: We're so honest. Awesome.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Barb's still listening, though. That's all we need.
Maybe that's an interesting, I don't know, teaching series or something that we could do in the future. Highlight some of those. The cynics in the crowd. It might be a particularly Western thing, way to communicate to the people that we have that we're trying to reach. Of course, all of scripture is relatable, but that is something I don't think that we've ever attacked in that angle. That's really profound.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And Paul, you could do John Paul now. I'm just saying the Beatles names. Martha, John Paul, Martha Zacchaeus. There's so many good stories of these people that just had their doubts and kind of needed Thomas.
It's all in there. But, yeah, I think probably in our modern information age where cynicism is everywhere and getting worse and worse with political divides and ideological divides and.
Yeah, there's a beauty, I think, in this ancient invitation to set aside cynicism and become something different.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: It's good. Lindsay, can you tell us about what's coming next? Give a little preview to the people.
[00:41:48] Speaker C: Yes. So this Sunday we start a series called Good and Beautiful, and it's based on a series of books by James Brian Smith.
And it's a formational series. So it'll be talking about faith through a spiritual formation lens, which is my bread and butter.
And it's going to be really good. I'm excited about it. I can't remember how many weeks it is. Six, I think.
[00:42:13] Speaker A: Six is right.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: Five or six.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:15] Speaker A: It's substantial.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And it kicks off and I think this is the first book in the series, talking about getting to know the God that Jesus knew.
And I think sometimes I know for my faith, sometimes it's just like I just want to know, like the answers for my life to get through to success, to get through to being a good dad or a good husband or a good pastor.
Give me the download for self improvement spiritually.
And I think what we're going to be talking about is this idea of that's probably not the right approach. The right approach is I want to think the thoughts that Jesus thought about who he knew God to be, and that's going to transform everything.
[00:42:58] Speaker C: Yeah, right. Yep. That's right.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: It's interesting coming on the heels of this conversation, too. We basically just took several weeks saying, is it good and beautiful?
And here's some places where it doesn't feel like that. And then the process of formation is for us to jump into a conversation that as the good and beautiful God, the good and beautiful life. And maybe that's, again, kind of the broader umbrella of what we're trying to accomplish.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. I look forward to that. And can we say, Lindsay, you're going to be preaching in this series.
[00:43:33] Speaker C: I am.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Which we're excited to have you do that.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: You're not nervous? You're up on that stage all the time. Lindsay, what's the difference?
[00:43:42] Speaker C: Public speaking versus public singing? They're different.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: You talk a lot up there, though.
[00:43:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, It'll be great. I'm an excited nervous, not a scared nervous.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: You're gonna do great. Will you do song breaks since you have the skill set?
[00:43:56] Speaker C: I was planning on singing my message. If that was, that'd be great.
[00:44:00] Speaker A: Okay, now. Now I am scared, actually. That is scary.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: Could you do it like hip hop, Lin Manuel Miranda style? Oh, my gosh.
Tell the whole story. 25 minutes, all spoken word. Yeah.
Would that come off like Hamilton or more like carmen?
[00:44:18] Speaker C: Oh, Carmen. 100%.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh, please say Hamilton.
[00:44:23] Speaker C: I don't. I'm too white.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:44:27] Speaker B: Oh, you're gonna do great.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's gonna be a great series.
We try to take all these different perspectives on formation. Right. Which is kind of the idea. And this is the newest installment in that.
[00:44:38] Speaker B: And.
[00:44:38] Speaker A: And a perspective. Sometimes the framework seems to make it like I can read through these books that we've been. That we're gonna preach through and talk through.
And it sounds like it echoes something that we've taught or learned or done before in a lot of ways. But even just the adjustment of the framework can make it feel like a completely different thing or a little bit more palatable or more understood for some or maybe other material. Wasn't as much.
[00:45:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you tune out when you hear the word formation, because I know it's kind of a trendy word. And just right now, in the last five years, I've heard it more than ever before.
But how it's been helpful for me to think about is so much focus has been for a long time on just what you know about God, about the Bible, about your faith formation. Just says, who are you becoming in Christ? And such an important distinction. We want to know we want the knowledge, but we also have to.
We have to become something. And formation speaks to the becoming, not just the knowing. And so I think it's so, so necessary to keep circling back around these topics.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Well, there you go. There's the framework shift right there. I'm just gonna use that on Sunday.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Do it.
[00:45:49] Speaker A: Easy peasy.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: Do it. Yeah. Here we go. Two in a row, Ben. Come on.
[00:45:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Ugh. Exhausting.
This is a shared leadership.
[00:45:58] Speaker B: What is this?
Every solo pastor listening that speaks 50 times a year is rolling their eyes so hard.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: I used to do it when I led young adults.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:08] Speaker A: I preached probably 48 of the weeks.
That's insane.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: That's a lot.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: None of those could have been good, right? They must have been bad.
[00:46:20] Speaker B: That's what you got to figure, like, your content can't keep up. And I think this is.
You have to pivot into just, like, really long series or let's go verse by verse through it, because trying to come up with standalone, you know, 50 standalone home run type messages.
Good luck. I don't know who can do that.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: No, it's no mistake that I got a few weeks vacation. I came back and then I preached on Sunday, and I was like. I felt pretty good about that, actually, compared to a lot. I was like, well, of course I had a little bit of a break.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: Took some time off.
[00:46:51] Speaker A: I finished my sentences.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: That was awesome.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: I don't always do that.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: That's good. That's good. Okay, great. Good conversation today. And looking forward to this new, new series.
[00:47:04] Speaker A: Are we doing a podcast every week for this next one?
[00:47:07] Speaker C: I don't think so.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Tell me now.
[00:47:09] Speaker B: We're deciding in the moment.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: The music is going. Hurry.
I'm gonna take that as a no.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: We'll see you soon. Everybody sounds right. Okay, there's 18 seconds left in this outro, so we should just keep, you know, keep talking.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: I was relying on you for that.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: I ran out of things to say.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Favorite Unsolved Mysteries episode.
[00:47:37] Speaker B: Ooh, good question.
Do you ever watch Ancient Aliens? Yes.
