We All Shall Fall

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming, that's Lindsey Parnell, and way over there is Evan Earwicker. [00:00:24] Speaker B: Welcome back, Ben. [00:00:25] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:00:26] Speaker B: How is Bonnie Bend, Oregon treating you now? [00:00:31] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:00:32] Speaker B: You went to Scotland last week. [00:00:34] Speaker A: Did. Took a group from the church. It was pretty fun. Your department, though, Lindsay. I got to give credit to your department. That was a discipleship trip. [00:00:41] Speaker C: So, yeah, I can take zero credit for any part of that trip, though. So you pioneered the way you went on your sabbatical. [00:00:48] Speaker A: I did. [00:00:48] Speaker C: I went on my own. Everyone wanted to go, too. [00:00:50] Speaker B: So you walked 100 kilometers, which is like, what, 60, 64. 64 miles, something like that, on the pilgrimage trail, St. Cuthbert's Way. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I didn't calculate it in kilometers, though. I appreciate you doing that for me. Trevor, who went on the trip with us, we were almost done with the first go. The first leg is like 15 miles. And he said, yeah, I figured it out about partway through this walk. It's going to be about a million inches today. And so we asked him to do everything in inches after that. Every time we were having a discussion, what's the elevation gain in inches on this one? [00:01:26] Speaker B: You didn't go all American. Be like, how many school buses is this? How many would do washing machines? What's the line? We'll do literally anything to not use the metric system or whatever. [00:01:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it was great, though. I mean, it was really kind of a life transformative moment for me personally when I went by myself. And this is a very different trip done in the same place. And it was kind of great to get both perspectives. You know, before it was this real solitude, quiet, even lonely a lot of times, Trip. And then this was a ton of camaraderie. And you could kind of do a little bit of both. You could kind of go way back in the pack all by yourself if you wanted to, or you could talk with somebody for large patches of the trail. And it was sweet and beautiful, just as beautiful in a very different way. And it was really helpful that we had a pretty broad spectrum of human beings on the trip. You know, there was me and then Brandt Himes as a pastor here, and then we had, you know, a couple ladies that were a little bit older and like, killing it on the trail compared to everybody else, and just all kinds of experiences and backgrounds and jobs and some retired and some not. And it was fun to share the trail that way and just really beautiful. And it's always amazing what different things people take away from something like that, too. Some were deeply connected to this old historic faith. Some were simply just connected to thinking about walking being the task for the day, every day. [00:03:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Not something that we do very often. So, yeah, totally worth the time. It was beautiful. I would preach the gospel of St. Cuthbert's way anytime. [00:03:11] Speaker B: And we'll probably go back. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:03:13] Speaker B: You guys are talking about making this an annual trip and maybe expanding options to make it more accessible for folks. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the hope. I hope we can. And maybe not everybody can walk the trail that far, you know, but I want, I would love everyone to have access to some kind of version of this. And maybe it's staying at an abbey somewhere or something like that. There's something about going somewhere and doing all the prep to get there and then spending time, especially in ancient places, to connect you to as a reminder. And that that was how I framed it for the group. You guys remember going through the pandemic, and then we often talk about all the decisions that we just had to make. And every day it was like somebody said something new and then we had to make another decision based on what somebody said. And we talked about, like, we have to, we should do something that we can't argue about that's ancient in the faith. And so we started doing communion and a benediction every service every day. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Oh, in the church? [00:04:09] Speaker A: No, in the church. [00:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:10] Speaker A: Us together. And then this is, I think, is kind of the progression of all of that is like, how do we learn how to partake in and understand the value of super old and super slow things? Because if there's anything we don't like culturally, it's old and slow things right now. We don't lend ourselves to those. And that was kind of how I framed the trip for everyone. [00:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And something about walking and the pilgrimage, I don't think it's just because it's ancient Christian heritage or religious. I think it's something soul level in our humanity that needs that walk, needs that space and that slowness. I mean, comically. There was a show, the comedian Nathan Fielder, who does all this wacky television for comedic effect, but one of his shows, there was an episode where he went to this gas station and the ruse is that he has these brilliant business ideas for struggling businesses and they're just ridiculous, over the top things for comedy. But they were doing a rebate on the gas to where it was going to go from like $5 a gallon down to like, 10 cents a gallon. But the catch was, after you filled your tank, you were given a slip of paper and you had to redeem the voucher by climbing up to the top of a mountain. Literally, it was like a nine mile hike to get to the redemption spot where you had to personally to get your rebate. And the idea was that no one would do it, but you would still get the customers. But fascinating picture of what happened because all these people said yes to the climb. And then they went up as this group and by the end they're like crying together. Oh, my God. And it was just like this crazy picture of how starved we are for the walk for the community that looks like that. And that's what makes me think of these pilgrimages. It's like, I think you said it on Sunday. The cabbie's like, you don't have paths in Oregon. [00:06:12] Speaker A: There's no trails where you live. Actually, there are. We have a lot of them. [00:06:17] Speaker B: So many funny. But yeah. No, it's shared purpose and it's, it's the intention and the slowness. I think that is the point, right? [00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. And we had that, we had that really quickly, that camaraderie. And this group didn't really know each other. There were two people that had several conversations just at Westside together. The rest of them were not connected in any way. They all met each other in Scotland for the most part. Or we had one quick gathering here beforehand. Um, yeah, there, there. There wasn't a prior connection, really. And before we even started, it was raining really hard, really hard. When we walked outside, it was so awesome. It definitely woke up, like the football coach in me that was like, oh, yeah, here we go. So stupid. And so we, like took a picture and we started. And immediately, you climb a thousand feet immediately in the rain. And it was pouring rain. [00:07:16] Speaker C: Wow. [00:07:17] Speaker A: And I was like, okay, here's where the rubber meets the road. Like, either this is going to be a connection point or this is going to get real quiet real quick. And we're going to have some people turn around and go the other way. Because a thousand foot climb is like, that's like Misery Ridge kind of stuff. I think Misery Ridge is a little less than that. I think it's a little steeper, but it's shorter. And it was. That connection happened. People are fascinating. Man, how quick that group cared about each other. It was almost instant. [00:07:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Like there's a magic to pilgrimage in that way. It's. It's very spiritual. Like, you almost can't help it, you know, it was. It was awesome. [00:08:04] Speaker B: And then last week we sent off the Franco's to Spain. Kind of another picture of this. Like, you know, go around the world and experience what God has for you in another place. And so it just feels like a moment, maybe, as we head into the fall, of reminding ourselves that this whole Christian faith isn't just about us in this moment, in this place, but we're connected to ancient history. We're connected to a community that's global, you know, And I like that. I want us to have that feeling. I think there's, I don't know, a real sinister draw to hunker down and close ranks and protect what we have and become real tribal in this moment of Christianity. And let's do it the other way, right? And look outward. [00:08:58] Speaker A: How much of that is good for us as leaders too? Like how maybe it's just me. You guys ever feel tempted in a moment, especially during teaching or leading, to try to make the group in front of you feel so incredibly special? Like it's right now and it's this moment, it's you guys and who this is, you know, and you kind of heighten that. That thing. And I think that is a temptation, especially in quote, unquote, today's day and age, you know, to. It's that bunkering kind of thing that creates that camaraderie in an unhealthy way. Tribalism and all of this stuff is to try to push against that. Like, no, let's remember, we're not the first to ever feel like the world might be ending. We're not the first to ever experience political unrest. We're not the first to ask these questions. Kind of like we are in the series, you know, we ask the good questions. We. This last week we talked about does our faith have to be radical? And when we go through them, I'm like, wow, these are. I'm really impressed that we're doing this. You know, this is great. Like, it's kind of innovative. Like, people have been asking these questions [00:10:00] Speaker C: forever [00:10:02] Speaker A: and you got to be tied back to that. You got to. Got to have the weight put back around your once in a while and be like, well, I'm not that special. You know, people have been walking through this for a long time. [00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it reminds me of. Speaking of the message, it reminds me. You talked, Ben, about Christians, of all people, should not be people who are living in fear, making decisions out of fear. You know, that. That impulse to hunker down and isolate. I feel like that's really fear based. And I like the pushing against that. I like, like, no, we're not going to do that. We're gonna swing the opposite way. We're gonna, you know, put ourselves out there in a vulnerable way with this group of people we don't know and we're gonna climb a thousand feet real quick together in the rain. Like I. There's something in me that loves pushing back against this like weirdly accepted status quo of like self preservation and like, nah, we're gonna put ourselves out there, we're gonna be bold. We're gonna do adventurous things together in community, in this like beautiful, wild life Jesus has for us. I just, it's amazing. I want to go. I'm going to go. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. Push back against all those impulses to control or the illusion of control. And I think oftentimes for those of us that are not just surviving, you know, there's like a fight or flight that I think a lot of people, especially globally, live in. For those of us that have the luxury of feeling like we are in control of our lives, we can extend that kind of feeling of control to our faith where it's like, well, I'm going to, I'm going to make sure that everything about my relationship with God is something that I have a say in and I have control over. And so things like anger, things like fear, really, that's just our attempt at saying, God, I'm going to control my life, so I'm going to be afraid of these things. I'm going to be angry at those things. And, and somehow we baptize that as like radical Christianity. I'm so intense and I'm so real. Aren't you angry? If you were as serious about your faith as I am, you'd be as angry and as afraid as I am. And Jesus just does a different way. And I think even the disciples in the gospels, like, they're angry and afraid and all the things. And he's constantly like, and now we're going to walk to the next town and he calms the storm on the way. And you know, you read the story of the garrisons and even that like this crazy spectacle happens. And then he's like, now go back home and live your life. And it's like this, this wild frontier of God on the move. And also the ordinary, simple, quiet life that actually is where God meets us. And I don't know. Yeah, I thought you did a really good job of pointing out how contrary that can feel. Even if you're preaching in real time, you're like, I don't know. [00:12:50] Speaker A: Who did you quote from? [00:12:53] Speaker B: Princess Bride? [00:12:55] Speaker A: Clearly not choose the wine in front of me. [00:12:56] Speaker B: That was awesome. [00:12:59] Speaker A: Not quite as many people reacted to Princess Bride as I thought, but I got a reaction was you guys. I grew up on my. Like, I have great memories of watching that movie over and over and over again. And it was the only one at Video Zone in Glendale that when you rented it, came in a tan box. For some reason, all the other ones had black boxes. You rent that one over and over again. But the. Watching the movie was great. Watching my dad watch the movie, like, is probably one of the greatest memories I have of growing up. Watching dad take off his glasses and, like, just laugh at his tears running down his face, you know? [00:13:36] Speaker B: So great. [00:13:37] Speaker A: And it was always the vicini scene with the battle of wits and the miracle max, you know, the. I'm not a witch. I'm your wife. [00:13:47] Speaker C: Your Princess Bride impressions are spot on. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I spent a lot of time. [00:13:50] Speaker B: I've watched it a few times. [00:13:52] Speaker C: I can tell you guys, speaking of Princess Bride, sorry. Not to get us off track, my sister's a teacher. She's teaching fifth grade. She has a kid in her class named Inigo Montoya. [00:14:01] Speaker A: Unbelievable. [00:14:03] Speaker B: That's his birth name. That's his birthday on the birth certificate. [00:14:06] Speaker A: Montoya, or is that his first and middle name? [00:14:08] Speaker C: His first name is Inigo. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:10] Speaker C: His last name is Montoya. [00:14:12] Speaker B: That's awesome. I mean, it's probably a pretty common name in. [00:14:16] Speaker C: Well, I was like, oh, wow. [00:14:17] Speaker B: There's lots of language families. [00:14:19] Speaker C: I don't know. I'm like, oh, what are the odds? And then we were FaceTiming the other day, and she was like, no, no, the dad's just a really big fan. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Just a big fan. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker A: Daughter named Wes. [00:14:30] Speaker C: That's a great name for a guy. Anyway, I've had to share that with everyone with the class. [00:14:37] Speaker B: It's a white family from Iowa. [00:14:40] Speaker C: Big fan. [00:14:41] Speaker A: But I was trying to not. I was trying to not over process in front of everybody. I. I can have the tendency to do that, and it doesn't necessarily do a lot of good. But I did want to examine or at least call out for a moment. Like, you could walk out of this room if you didn't pay super close attention and say, this guy doesn't want us to be passionate. [00:15:00] Speaker C: Right. [00:15:01] Speaker A: Which is crazy. Right? But I could totally understand someone could draw the conclusion of. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Especially you. [00:15:08] Speaker A: Just read Paul's teaching out of context. Don't compare it to Anything else, like make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, mind your own business and do work with your hands like it seems it's such a departure from everything else. And I am a little disappointed that these scriptures don't get marketed quite like the other ones because they don't hit as a tattoo quite like them. But yeah, it's, it's complex. It was a funny. It was shockingly a complex conversation to me. It was way harder than I thought. It was like literally on Monday when I looked at you, I was like, well I'm take that one. That sounds great and fun. By Wednesday I'm like miserable. [00:15:43] Speaker B: Made a terrible decision. Yeah, yeah. The nuance of what's the difference between passionate devotion and hyperventilating, to use Andy Squire's phrase. And those are very different. They just look the same sometimes, you know, where we can be passionately engaged in worship and prayer and loving our neighbor and you know, I hope the church becomes more and more even demonstrative in their worship. And you know, when we're preaching we don't want a quiet room. You want people laughing along and responding and nodding. Of course we want engagement in our faith. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about this piety that is for show sometimes to other people often, but often to ourselves of like, I gotta prove to myself how serious I take this. And in our mind sometimes I think, we think then God will approve of me. And we're, you know, we are chasing the wrong expression when we do that. And that's where I think Paul would stop it, you guys. Or it's Amos, you know, where God speaks through Amos and says, I've had it. To quote the message translation, I've had it with your conferences. Yeah. You can tell Eugene Peterson did not like Christian conference culture. But, but it's, there's something to it where, where it's like stop that and. And be filled with the joy of the Lord and be filled with the fruit of the Spirit. Be filled to overflowing with these things that yeah. Have emotional resonance, of course, but don't confuse raw emotion for the spirit of God. Yeah, right. [00:17:22] Speaker A: I think that's some of what you get out of the, the pilgrimage style walk too is, it's certainly not all, it's not that romantic all the time. Like especially you get away from certain overlooks or vistas or views or whatever, which certainly happen. There's a lot of just like. And here we are walking in a sheep field and there's poop all over the trail. Like, you know, there's a lot of things. It's just like, you can. You can add all. And that's, you know, one of the more romantic things you could do is just go to this beautiful place in Scotland and still 95% of the track is just walking like you would anywhere. And sometimes on grass, and sometimes it's on pavement, and sometimes that's about it. [00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:01] Speaker A: You know, and I think that's some of the best parts of it, is that it's pretty rare that the trail itself is going. Look at how amazing you're doing. And, oh, my. It's not trying to conjure up this thing. It happens, and it's beautiful because it happens, and it's beautiful. And I just hope Christians aren't afraid of that. I think sometimes we're afraid of that. That almost that awkward space in a conversation that isn't awkward if it's with a close friend. And it is awkward if it's with somebody that you feel a little insecure, unfamiliar with. What kind of person are we, you know, in this relationship with God? Do we have to fill every empty space because we're insecure? Or can we walk pretty happily into silence and in between places and find the comfort of God? [00:18:46] Speaker B: There's. It reminds me of on your walk. Speaking of how monotonous and unimpressive some of the walk was. I screenshotted this and sent it to Alyssa, your wife posted on Instagram, and it's a typo, but she has pictures of you. And then it says, this group is unremarkable. Exclamation point. Which is. Which is awesome. This group is unremarkable. Exclamation. It's a good picture of. Yeah, that's awesome. [00:19:13] Speaker A: I did not know that. [00:19:15] Speaker B: So funny. What an unremarkable group this is. I am so unimpressed. I don't know. I don't even know if she knows. [00:19:26] Speaker A: Lame. [00:19:28] Speaker B: That's so great. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Did you guys. Did you guys all see the Andy Squires quote when it was posted? [00:19:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I did. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:38] Speaker A: What'd you think? [00:19:39] Speaker C: I loved it. I know what it was in response to. It's a little bit of like. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't know Internet, any of [00:19:44] Speaker C: that, which I shouldn't get into here, but I saw it and I thought it was absolutely beautiful. And I don't know that I've. I've heard things framed quite that way, which is Andy Squires. I could not recommend his poetry and essays highly enough. He just. He's like a Modern day. I don't know, maybe Keith Green or something where he's just shining a really unique light on a lot of things in Christendom and like Christian pop culture and, you know, the Christian music industry, things like that. I think his voice is really profound, even prophetic. And I loved the quote. I thought it was so beautiful. And it. It makes you pause and, like, examine yourself for a minute. Like, do I hypervent? What was it? [00:20:32] Speaker A: Spiritual hyperventilating. [00:20:33] Speaker C: Spiritual hyperventilating. [00:20:35] Speaker B: You're not compelled to or no, you're not obligated to be compelled by other people? [00:20:41] Speaker A: Obligated to be compelled? [00:20:43] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just. Yeah, it makes you stop and think for a minute in a different way about some things. And I always appreciate that. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd never heard a phrase like that. Spiritual hyperventilating for some reason really worked in my brain of conviction and stopping to pause. You know, I considered my history as a Christian, my history as a leader, you know, all of that, and I kind of touched on it. It's probably a better conversation for a podcast, actually. That feeling that pastors get where we're like, we gotta make something happen in the room right now. We have to do it. And I've done that. I've gotten myself all charged up in order to be like, no, I really need somebody to visit my altar call. I really need somebody to respond emotionally right now. But I don't think it's just pastors. I think we do that as Christians. I don't know if we get bored or there's enough of that awkward space. We feel like we have to fill it with energy that at least looks like we're interested. [00:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it has to do with people projecting a norm that is not actually the norm or. And we see it in just American culture, not even American Christian dumb, but just this. Like, if you're not hearing the voice of the Lord, if you're not passionately worshiping, if you don't go to church, you're not in it or you're not doing it right, or so, you know, you got to try harder, do better, because your relationship should be remarkable, it should be noteworthy and history making and all of these things. And I think we kind of convince ourselves if it's not, we're doing something wrong, like, I'm not a good enough Christian, or I'm not, you know, for whatever reason, my relationship isn't where it should be with Christ. And the reality is like, no, no, no, that's the norm. The boring, the Times of stuff, silence. Not because you're choosing it, but because you can't hear God or God is not speaking or whatever the nuances of those moments are. But like, we've. We've done. We're doing a disservice if we proclaim a gospel that is nothing but remarkable and mountaintops and, you know, conferences and the prophetic, all the, you know, that kind of stuff, because it's not. And I think people worry that they're not doing it right or God doesn't love them or whatever because they're not experiencing this, like, crazy, amazing, every day, all day, you know, relationship with Jesus. [00:23:14] Speaker B: And it's the same mechanism as, you know, do better and try harder. I don't think it's any different. It's just do better emotionally to show up in a certain way. And there are some days when I walk into that room for worship and I would choose other things, but I know, like, when I stand in there and I engage in worship, that's really important to my own faith and community. And not just because I'm Pastor Evan, but because there's, you know, I just do this every single week. And if I just let myself only do, you know, pursue Christ when I was in the mood to, I would be completely different, on a different trajectory. And so there's like this. We're not saying, just only do what is your truth in the moment. And if you don't feel like it, you just don't. No, sometimes we show and it's like with our kids or spouses or whatever, it's like we show up in really intentional ways, but we're not, I don't know, coming and be like, I gotta be hyped up more, otherwise God's not gonna hear me. And it can look the same. And so I think as pastors, we have to be careful that people don't hear that as, don't care, don't show up. Only do what you feel. That's not what we're talking about, right? I don't think. [00:24:37] Speaker C: No. I admonished the church on Sunday. We were singing this song on the bridge. Says, I will believe for greater things. There's nothing like the power of Jesus, something to that effect. I should know the words. But before we sang that, I felt like the church needed to know. We sing those words or we read those words, and we automatically think, I got to stir up some faith. I gotta. I gotta get there. I gotta do something so that we persuade God. God notices God. Like, what? What is that? And and we, we put the cart before the horse because God doesn't need our faith to persuade him to do anything. God just is good. He just is working. He is doing greater things. And it's because of that that we believe, right? Like not saying we see and then we believe. That's not what I mean. But it's not this transactional. I gotta do this, so God does that. Or I have to stir something up within me so that God notices I'm a good Christian, I convince myself that I'm doing it right or whatever. And I think just that reframing like now, God just is so good. We, we show up when we don't feel like it because God's amazing always, all the time. And, and the showing up when we don't want to or walking through the doors, whatever that's forming us and that's doing, that's not nothing. That's doing something, you know, but it's not this, like I gotta get to a certain place within myself so that, you know, fill in the blank. [00:26:05] Speaker B: Right? [00:26:06] Speaker C: Yeah, right. [00:26:07] Speaker A: And then I think then we have to hold ourselves accountable to after that, genuinely being open handed with the presence of the spirit and being and experiencing everything that God has for us in those moments. [00:26:19] Speaker B: Right? [00:26:20] Speaker A: Because then, at least for me, it's easy to say, okay, yeah, any square is amazing. Yeah, spiritual hyperventilating. I'm not doing that. I'm not showing up, not doing that, not pretending. And then I can be in environments where I'm like, well I'm just going to see her with my arms crossed forever because I'm not spiritual hyperventilating. So stop talking to me. Don't make me conjure anything like, I'm fine, you know. And that's not the response either. That's not actually being open to. Well, maybe the Spirit is providing something in this moment that I need to be in tune with, you know, and pay attention to. I am, I am showing up here and I am willing to be present and intentional about being here and listening. And sometimes that's going to manifest itself in total silence and solitude. And I also want to be open to laughter and joy and grief and understanding and wisdom like I want. I am, I gotta be open to it. And that's kind of where the work has become for me. That's where I find it is in those places and it used to be. And it's anxiety producing. Even how I talk about it that like, okay, I gotta show up, ready to go. 16 year old me is like, I hate Youth groups so much. But I'm gonna be ready, you know, I can't. It's even. It got me off of, like. Like motivational speeches for a long time, you know? And even I'm in the sports world all the time. Coaches and players, and I'm like, whatever, dude. Just go play. Like, nobody needs this. You don't get to get me fired up. Yeah, I had one of those speeches in high school football. I was a senior and somebody gave me the locker room, whatever. And I was like, just. I was already just not feeling that. I'm fired up. I'm already fired up, you know, I was like, you guys want to win? You know? Yeah. I was like, okay, great, bring it in. You know, I was like, I'm not doing a speech. [00:28:01] Speaker B: I can't do this. [00:28:03] Speaker A: So are we really? Yeah. Can you be genuinely open, though, without feeling the shame of needing to spiritual hyperventilate, you know? Like, can you really be open? That's the task, I think. Yeah. [00:28:16] Speaker B: And the. If you were using a prop on Sunday, I thought this as you were preaching. [00:28:21] Speaker A: Oh, should I have used it? [00:28:22] Speaker B: You should have used a prop. Dang it. Just breathing into a paper bag. Everyone can, you know, you can visualize that, like, hyperventilating. [00:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:29] Speaker B: And then I thought, like, compare that to, like, breath prayers where you're, like, slowing you down as opposed to, I'm so worked up and you're breathing into paper bag and you're. And I suppose that's supposed to calm you down, too. But just like, this visual of, like, we take what is supposed to be this soul nurturing thing, which is the presence of Jesus in a chaotic world that brings peace to storms and, you know, holds us in the trouble. And yes, somehow we turn that into more trouble, more chaos, more. And yeah, there's just gotta be a better way. But to your point, Ben, you know, as preachers, we also sometimes don't feel it. But you gotta get up on that stage or as a worship leader or a preacher, Lindsay, and you have to lean into the form of what you're there to do, regardless of emotion. And so that's okay. I don't want anybody to feel bad because they raised their hands in worship and they felt like, oh, maybe that isn't true. Or maybe I should just, you know, like, I don't want anybody to feel shame for leaning into an expressive. [00:29:37] Speaker A: This is why it's a good question, though. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:39] Speaker C: Or for feeling emotion. [00:29:40] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:29:41] Speaker C: That is a big part of it. We are emotional human beings. Emotions are a Gift, but they don't determine the way forward. Do I feel it or do I not? No, we, we go the, you know, the long obedience in this direction. This is what we do, regardless if there's accompanying emotion. But emotion is very much a part of our lives, our bodies, our spiritual walk with Jesus. Like Jesus was human. He was God incarnate. He experienced emotion and we do and should. I think that is good. And for someone to feel passionate, that's commendable. It's beautiful. It's just not gonna be the way it is all the time. It's not sustainable. Right. That's not gonna be your new way and that we have to say that too. So I think both, both are good. And please raise your hands and worship everybody. [00:30:33] Speaker A: Says the worship leader, let's go. [00:30:35] Speaker C: That would be great. [00:30:38] Speaker A: That's the nuance that makes it hard though, of what we're talking about, about. And, and honestly, I just think it's time, especially you've been in, in church circles for a long time and, and we see people kind of swinging to the other end of the pendulum. You know, we have a lot of current or ex Catholics is how they would describe themselves in our church. And I think for some of them, like, finding Westside felt like a big swing. Like, I don't want to get out of Christian faith, but I don't want this, you know, and then I've seen a lot of evangelical Protestants swing back to Catholicism or toward Catholicism because it's like, oh my gosh, something with liturgy and depth and tradition, like, please, this is what I need. And I get why we all kind of make those swings at some point. And eventually you have to have discernment and wisdom in the middle of all this. While it's tempting to just say no, whoever's crying and praying the loudest is the one that I'm going to trust the most. Because there's this clear reaction that's going on. We got to do the work of actually understanding what God's bringing us through. That's the hard part and the best part. And it's what we're looking for. [00:31:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And as now middle aged leaders, we can't steal the excitement of new faith, especially from young people in spaces who are like, oh, you guys will get over this, trust me. Just give us some time. You're in phase one and two of the critical journey. Just wait until you hit your wall. Like you gotta give. We have to give our kids, young people, young adults, spaces to do what we did, which was to over Express and over emote in these places. And yet I think we're called to now as elders. I hope not. But you know, as, as, as pastors and mother and father figures is to guide that and shape that without deflating. [00:32:28] Speaker C: Yes. [00:32:29] Speaker B: The excitement and passion of new faith. Because that would be tragic if, if our young people grow up being like, oh yeah, church has to be a quiet, boring place. Like that's, that's not what we're going for here. Right. You know? [00:32:42] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me actually, Brian Zahn, he wasn't the original guy that thought of this, but he talks about the second naivety and I feel like that's kind of our new, our calling, the three of us, that second naivety where we've done it, we've done stages one and two. I've had many a wall. We've been critical and jaded and cynical. And I feel like the invitation for people who find themselves in a similar place is that second naivety where you, you find wonder again and find the words of scripture or mystical parts of our faith, things like that, really engaging and captivating and not, you know, we don't bah humbug everything. And I think that's a. Two of the three us do not. [00:33:36] Speaker A: Two of us is calling. [00:33:39] Speaker C: But it's a really beautiful, hope filled thing to think about. I think for any leaders who find themselves stewarding younger, passionate believers to really embrace that, that a newfound like childlike wonder. That's not naive but, but it's a, it's like a, a wizened, I suppose, era. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah. It reminds me of, you know, in, in literature there's Tolkien or Harry Potter or whatever the, the wizard figures are the sage. Right. The, the typecast or type. And it's this idea of the most cynical and jaded and least wonder filled person is not the sage, the oldest, the wisest. [00:34:27] Speaker A: Sure. [00:34:27] Speaker B: It's the person in the middle. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:29] Speaker B: They've experienced enough to where they're like, I know how this is going. I can tell you all the ways this is going to go wrong and why there should be no wonder in the world because I've experienced that. And then the sage voice in literature comes in and says really? Why do you think that? [00:34:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:43] Speaker B: And it's the spark of curiosity and wonder that maybe actually there's more to this than what we have learned in our so many years of experience. Give it more time. And I think that's what the critical journey concept that you talked about on Sunday, at least in one of the services, points to which is once you've hit the wall and once you've turned inward, then outward again, and then come to this place of union with God, you will realize that everything is possible. [00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It's because you're making me think if I listen to. I'm a Little Late to the game. Olivia Rodrigo's song, Driver's License. You guys heard this song at all? [00:35:23] Speaker B: Oh, like her breakout hit from. Yeah, ten years ago. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ten years ago. She would have been, like, nine. No, she's older than that. That song, I mean, I've heard several times since. It is so emotional. And it's literally about this girl who's in this relationship with this boy, and they've always talked about her getting her driver's license so that she can just drive over to see him whenever she wants. That's the song. So obviously, 15, 16 years old. Like, blah, blah, blah. And it is so, like, weepy, you know? Like, the song starts at this, like, kind of breathy, like, gotten my driver's license last week. You've always talked about, you know, And I'm like. And then it ends. It ends with. With. You said forever. No, I drive alone past your street because they broke up somewhere in the process. And my first response to this song [00:36:24] Speaker B: is like, wow, get over it. [00:36:30] Speaker A: You're 16 years. Congratulations. You just turned 16. You know, and obviously, it's a massive hit, and I am not the market for this. And I think Olivia Rodrigo's amazing. But I had that thought, like you were saying, and it was like, no, the next generation gets to have this song. Of course they do. Like, it'd be ridiculous. And, yeah, I'm at a particular moment in life where I'm rolling my eyes at it and going, this is a lot of work for a sophomore in high school relationship right here. And of course they get that. And who in their right mind, when you really stop, would say, no, you guys, we've been through all this. Can we take out the emotion and get rid of all the art that talks about the pains of dating in high school? Like, no, of course we can't do that. This is it. This is the critical journey. And, yeah, the Sages, the Gandalfs, are probably like, yeah, this is the songs that they sing at this point. And it's actually part of it. It's a feature, not a bus. [00:37:28] Speaker C: Well, it reminds me, my dad, he's one of the biggest music heads I know. Like, he just. Music is in his DNA. He loves it. He knows it. And my sister and I. When we were growing up, Obviously, we loved NSync. Like, you can't take that. You'll pry that album, all those albums out of my cold, dead hands. Like, I loved them. And my dad, obviously, that music is not his music. He probably had many Olivia Rodrigo moments where he's like, what are my girls listening to? But you know what he did? He's a good dad. He got. He flew us to an NSync concert, puts us on the plane. It's not even, okay, you can have that. It's like, nope, I'm paying for us. And you guys get to each take a friend. [00:38:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:09] Speaker C: And your mom's gonna take you shopping to buy an outfit, and we're gonna get on the plane, we're gonna go. You want to see their hotel? Like, that kind of stuff, where it's not just like, okay, I get it, you can have it. But it's like, nope, come on. Yep. We're in this together. I have the excitement, too. Even though, sure, it's not my taste of music, you know, obviously. But it's. It's almost like it's. It's our job to help, you know, continue that excitement, that wonder that, you know, that rite of passage for. For younger people. It's really beautiful. It's important. [00:38:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you're wondering, as the parent of a teenage girl, there's lots more Olivia Rodrigo sad songs where that came from. So just. [00:38:52] Speaker A: I've heard a few of those too. You guys are vocally. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Man. [00:38:55] Speaker C: She is. [00:38:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't say I've gone through her whole. Her whole. [00:38:58] Speaker B: It was catchy stuff, man. It's really, really catchy. [00:39:01] Speaker A: And her vocals, man. [00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Just unbelievable. I've never heard her, really. [00:39:07] Speaker C: I think you've heard popular song, probably. [00:39:09] Speaker B: I think you've heard a driver's license. Very, very popular. [00:39:12] Speaker C: I'll embed the music video in the show notes, everyone. So take a peek. [00:39:17] Speaker B: That's great. [00:39:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it's a great. It's a great song. Once you get past, you know, your cynicism of being middle aged. Like Evan said, you know, it's a wonderful song. [00:39:26] Speaker C: Your face. But I thought, oh, he loved the song so much. And then you just crushed it. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Well, no, I think that's it, though. I think I do. I think I do now. I just had to go through the process. It's kind of like, you know, this is a sillier example, but like, haircuts, you know, and I'm at an age, I look at high schoolers and in My mind especially the boys. Not especially just the boys I've seen have this. The broccoli kind of broccoli headed. I call it Mr. Toad from Mario. I literally said the other day, you know, because Rebecca was like, oh, man, these haircuts. And I was like, yeah, they get to have that haircut that they really regret, and this is it for them. This generation's gonna hate that one. [00:40:08] Speaker B: But, Ben, be honest. You liked it when Joel was rocking the mullet, so, you know. [00:40:12] Speaker A: Rocking the mullet. [00:40:13] Speaker B: Is he still rocking? [00:40:14] Speaker A: So I'm kind of into that. [00:40:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I know you're into that, because [00:40:17] Speaker A: I never had the guts. I am living by Gersley through. Through my son's hair. Yeah, he won't. Every time we go to the hair. The barber, I go, you know, you can. You can do something else if you want. [00:40:28] Speaker B: No, Kind of his thing. [00:40:30] Speaker A: Kind of think so. He had me AI his picture the other day to give him a lot of different hair options, and he just couldn't. Yeah, couldn't land on one of them. I gotta say, there with the broccoli. One was an option. I deleted that before. Let him see. [00:40:42] Speaker C: I don't understand. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Is that still. I don't know. I'm not paying attention. Is that still in or is that. I feel like that was a year ago. [00:40:48] Speaker C: I saw multiple people on Sunday. I thought they were the same person. They were not the same person. [00:40:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, we're getting old. Those kids. There are two of them. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:59] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. [00:41:01] Speaker C: There's like, five. Okay, Five. [00:41:03] Speaker A: We need to be more like. [00:41:04] Speaker B: My. My classic thing was at, like, youth camps, you would get to know the kids by name by what they were wearing the first day. [00:41:13] Speaker C: Oh. [00:41:14] Speaker B: And at camp, usually they're wearing pretty much this. They'll wear the same shirt or jacket for like, two days, and then by the final day, they finally get shower and so they change their clothes. And you're like, I've never met any of these kids before in my life. You're like. You're the red shirt kid, right? Yeah. It's really confusing. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Can you go back? [00:41:29] Speaker B: We're so old again. Yeah, for sure. It's funny. Yeah. [00:41:34] Speaker A: I think it's the defining haircut. I think. I think we haven't seen anything like this since the Bieber. [00:41:38] Speaker B: The broccoli. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Yeah, Broccoli is the name. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Is there a name, an actual name for it? [00:41:42] Speaker A: I don't know. Like I said, I call it Mr. Toad. [00:41:45] Speaker C: I like, all these are really working for me. Broccoli. Mr. Toad. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Have you guys ever done a deep dive on the, like, Mr. Toad's Wild Ride and the. The dark rides at Disneyland? [00:41:56] Speaker A: No. [00:41:56] Speaker B: And the actual storylines, there's a deep dive. [00:41:59] Speaker C: Is it bad? [00:42:00] Speaker B: Oh, it's fascinating, really, because in Mr. Toad's wild ride, if you're paying attention, you are in this car with Mr. Toad, and then you break the law, the police are chasing you, and you get hit by a train and go to hell. [00:42:16] Speaker C: Wow. [00:42:17] Speaker A: Yeah. That's where the wild ride starts. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:20] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:42:20] Speaker B: Well, you go through the whole. I mean, you start in the car, and then you get hit by a train, you die. You go to hell. And then you have to face down amazing Satan. Like, people, you don't pay attention. You're like, oh, whatever. It's the crazy storylines. [00:42:36] Speaker C: Face Giant. It's like a huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:39] Speaker B: There's that one. And then I. Pinocchio is also very dark. I don't remember specifically on Pinocchio, but anyway. Or there's no the. The ride. [00:42:49] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Not just dark light, but, like, the. The storyline is, like, really heavy. Yeah. [00:42:55] Speaker A: Well, now I'm interested, actually. Yeah. [00:42:57] Speaker B: Next time you go to Disneyland. [00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah. It's better than, like, whatever they did to the Tower of Terror. It's all Guardians of the Galaxy. [00:43:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:03] Speaker C: Not a fan. [00:43:04] Speaker A: The ride, the feeling of. It's still cool, but it's very Avenger. [00:43:07] Speaker B: I don't. I do not enjoy the drop. The drop feeling. [00:43:11] Speaker C: Did you used to or you never have? [00:43:13] Speaker B: No, never have. [00:43:14] Speaker C: Okay. [00:43:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I do it because Clara really loves it, but I'm into it, and I'll do coasters and speed and everything else is fine, but the. The. Just the dropping. I just hate it. [00:43:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Pinocchio in general, one of the darkest, like, films, especially for kids, you know, And I kind of. Do you. Do you guys wish we veered a little bit with the dark? Like, back toward, like, land before time, you know? [00:43:43] Speaker C: Wish we were there now. [00:43:44] Speaker A: No. Like. Yeah. Do we. Do you wish we had some more movies that were a little bit like Facts of Life, kid? You know, sometimes in the middle of the story, mom dies and you're alone and you gotta find a bunch of friends. [00:43:55] Speaker C: No, I don't think I want that again. [00:43:57] Speaker B: I do think. I think kids can handle more than, like. I. I don't know. I feel like things are maybe shifting now. I think early 2000s, when Clara. Not early, early 2010s, when Clara was little. I. I feel like all we were showing her were like absolutely conflict free everything. And like, I don't know if that's what kids need is where there's absolutely no conflict ever. And it's just like working out your feelings and that's all you know. But maybe that's age appropriate. Two year old. Hey, look. [00:44:30] Speaker C: Facts of life, missy. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Oh, you thought they'd be happy forever. Well, that's not true. They die, we all shall fall. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Sometimes your species goes instincts. Thanks, Michael Scott. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Oh my goodness. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Or no Dwight. [00:44:43] Speaker B: Shoot. [00:44:44] Speaker C: Have you guys seen the Tick tocks or Instagrams where it's like talks about trauma or whatever and like it shows like Unsolved Mysteries Land before time. Like this is what we had as children to watch. [00:44:55] Speaker A: I'll find one you this for. There was an unsolved mission happened in my hometown. [00:44:59] Speaker B: Really? [00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah, you can find it on YouTube. Yeah, kid goes missing. [00:45:03] Speaker C: Yikes. Yeah, I grew up. [00:45:05] Speaker B: Did they ever solve it? [00:45:07] Speaker A: Nope, never solved it. Yeah, the. The court case of the person that they were sure of got thrown out. But yeah, kid and my parents were like on. Not on the show. They're in the search parties. They went out, look. [00:45:18] Speaker B: Oh my goodness. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Just big sweeps all the way through the forests and all that kind of stuff. If you know Glendale, there's a lot of forest research. [00:45:24] Speaker B: That's wild. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I found that a little while ago because I remember hearing about the fact that it happened. Just the sound of that music though, is its own triggering. Triggering. It was one of those shows that I wanted to watch every time so bad. And I was also like not moving on the floor of the living room, you know, a little afraid always of everything. [00:45:47] Speaker B: I was too Busy watching Rescue 911. [00:45:49] Speaker C: I was gonna say that. I feel like they were back to back or something. [00:45:52] Speaker B: Yeah. They would do reenactments of trauma, basically, and. And these, you know, dramatic 911 first responder stories. And kids would, you know, drown in pools and fall off cliffs and they'd reenact everything. [00:46:05] Speaker A: Amazing, amazing. [00:46:07] Speaker C: Absolutely awful. [00:46:07] Speaker A: Followed by Cops. [00:46:08] Speaker C: Yeah, that's why I deal with anxiety. You guys. Those two shows right there. No, but I did go back to Unsolved. [00:46:16] Speaker A: You did? [00:46:17] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:46:17] Speaker A: Have you watched the new ones? Are they any good? [00:46:19] Speaker C: Yeah, they're pretty good. Oh, yeah. [00:46:21] Speaker A: All right, I'm interested. They don't have the guy though. [00:46:23] Speaker C: No. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Is he dead? [00:46:25] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. [00:46:27] Speaker B: So that's. That's probably why. [00:46:29] Speaker A: No excuses. [00:46:30] Speaker B: Was he murdered? No, we had in. I think it was 2008. We were. A bunch of us were down In Mexico. And friends of ours that were at a church down there had a guy in their church from the States and he was living down there, and he was like this hotel developer or whatever. So he took us to this property on this beach where he was developing this multi million dollar, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars property. And very generous guy was paying for everything we get back home. And then like a month later hits the news. America's Most Wanted does a special on this guy. [00:47:07] Speaker A: What? [00:47:08] Speaker B: He was running a fraudulent mortgage scheme in Colorado that was taking advantage of immigrants, where he would sell immigrants mortgages and then disappear on them and they would have no recourse. And so he was just, like, cranking through, stealing money from immigrants. Awful. One of the worst, you know, horrible things you could do. And he was. Yeah. Running from the law, hiding out in Mexico, still doing, you know, real estate down there, but. And they ended up extradited him from Mexico and he's in federal prison. Wow. [00:47:41] Speaker A: So. Wow. That's unbelievable. [00:47:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, it was wild. Okay. [00:47:45] Speaker A: Lots of homework for the listeners. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Yeah, the show notes are wild. [00:47:49] Speaker A: You guys gotta listen to Olivia Rodrigo. We gotta go back to Rescue911. [00:47:53] Speaker B: I'm curious what show we're missing, though, in this genre. Yeah, those are the days, like reading rainbows, that we don't want those. But if, you know, listeners could email us or whatever with the shows that we're missing, that kind of. That dark edge that made us all scared as adults. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Yeah. What was in that lineup? Because I feel like a lot of, like, the Forensic Files and stuff came later and they were on, like, Court tv. [00:48:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:16] Speaker A: You know, but what was. [00:48:17] Speaker B: This was all, like, prime time. This was prime time crime. [00:48:21] Speaker A: Yeah. You watch Mad about you. You watched Seinfeld, and then you watched, like, Unsolved. [00:48:26] Speaker C: Dateline. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Dateline. That's a big one. [00:48:29] Speaker C: 60 minutes. I was at 20 minutes. 60 minutes. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Dateline was always the more scandalous. Right. 60 minutes, just like interviews. [00:48:35] Speaker C: I don't remember, but traumatizing nonetheless. [00:48:38] Speaker A: We'll start with Olivia Reverie. [00:48:39] Speaker C: Start there. [00:48:42] Speaker B: Pretty sad for what, I don't know, the name of the album. Sour. What.