John Week 6

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I am Ben Fleming, joined by. Is this what we agreed to last time? [00:00:22] Speaker B: Evan Earwicker. Hi. [00:00:24] Speaker A: And Lindsey Parnell. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Hello. [00:00:26] Speaker A: That worked. Good job. Yeah, thanks. You know, I remember just seconds before, but just under the wire. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Ben, you're dressed like a sea captain today. I like it. [00:00:38] Speaker A: It's a good look. Wait, sea captains don't say R. That's pirates. What does sea captain say? [00:00:42] Speaker B: Sea captains say thar she blows. That's a pirate too. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Well, that's the whalers, right? [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I wouldn't say. You're not dressed like a whaler. Yeah. Justin's laughing. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Is it the beard or the hat or the jacket that does it more? [00:01:00] Speaker B: It's the blue of the jacket and the cream color of the hat. Yeah, it's strong. [00:01:04] Speaker A: I've kind of unintentionally just fallen in love with like three blue denim to semi denim jackets in my life, and I wear them almost in perpetuity if it's cold enough. [00:01:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:13] Speaker A: I've just kind of accepted it, which. [00:01:15] Speaker B: I. I've been wearing blue denim less because of that. And then on last Sunday, I wore it and we were dressed exactly the same. Black pants, white sneakers, blue denim. Doing a baby dedication together on the stage. So you moved to the other side of the family. [00:01:30] Speaker A: I appreciated that I should have changed my jacket and I didn't. I even mentioned it in huddle and then I just ended up hanging out in the atrium and I didn't really notice it. I guess I don't notice it because I'm not necessarily with you the whole time. But then we did the baby dedication. [00:01:46] Speaker B: Together, standing on this terrible idea. Yeah. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Right next to each other. Co senior pastors. And then Lindsay's wearing what we wore, but she's doing it today. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, look at this. It's the denim. [00:01:57] Speaker C: Did you guys have a turtleneck underneath? [00:01:59] Speaker B: No. [00:02:00] Speaker C: He's giving fourth grade. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Elementary teacher. Well. Or sea captain in the 90s. Didn't they wear turtleneck? [00:02:05] Speaker B: No. [00:02:06] Speaker A: Didn't they wear turtlenecks? [00:02:08] Speaker B: Probably the North Atlantic sea captain. Sure. It's cold up there. That's right. [00:02:14] Speaker A: Not very warm. Waterproof, though. Those. Those turtlenecks. I can't tell you the last time I wore a turtleneck. Although there is a picture of me with a flat top haircut, a black long sleeve turtleneck, and a necklace with a just a washer on the end of it. Like. Yeah, you know, nuts, bolts, and washers. And I'm like, leaning back on something, and I don't even know if it was like, picture day. That picture's around. I'm not sure why I took it, but it's there. [00:02:46] Speaker B: So, Lindsey, are turtlenecks for men but not, like, high fashion? Because I'm sure, you know, if you're a man who is very fashionable, you can rock anything. For the average man who just puts on a turtleneck, is that in or out in 2026? [00:03:00] Speaker C: I think it depends on the age. If you're older, it's the sweetest thing. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Yes. If you're. [00:03:06] Speaker C: If you're sweet older. [00:03:08] Speaker B: Over 60. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:10] Speaker C: 60S plus. Anything younger, it's giving, like, retro 70s. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Vibes, like, and that's, like, trying too hard. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:19] Speaker C: I just. It's not cool. [00:03:21] Speaker A: We'll see. I think we just said the same thing. [00:03:25] Speaker B: I'm trying to think on our. On our cheer staff, who could pull off whatever they want. I kind of feel like Sam Niembro, who's editing this podcast, what a great call. Could probably pull. Pull a turtleneck off, and we'd be like, yeah, it works. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think that's right. Yeah, for sure. I mean, almost all of fashion comes down to either attitude or fitness. Right? Like, I see a good looking guy and they can wear. And they even, you know, you see, like, ads, and there's stores that you walk into, and they have these models that are gorgeous. And I'm like, yeah, you wear anything, man. And, like, of course you look fantastic. There's like, four things I can wear until I reach a higher level of fitness. Like, that's just where we're at right now, so. [00:04:10] Speaker B: Good. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Don't trick me with your trends. It's all about having abs, man. And then you wear whatever. [00:04:16] Speaker B: That's fair enough. Anyway, you're gonna transition off of that. Yeah. No. [00:04:21] Speaker A: Gosh dang it. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Fashion and fitness, oddly, is not my areas of expertise. So we're gonna keep moving. [00:04:27] Speaker A: I love it when finally someone says something where the other two of us just go, all right, that was so good. Yeah. [00:04:35] Speaker B: We talk about John Williams. I'm all in. We talk about sports. You're all in. I was hoping with fashion, you would be more vocal here. [00:04:42] Speaker C: Men's fashion, I don't know. [00:04:44] Speaker B: Well, we're not gonna launch with, like, let's talk about women's fashion. [00:04:47] Speaker C: Like, yeah, that'd be weird. [00:04:48] Speaker A: Yeah. So does the turtleneck thing not count for men and women, that dynamic that you're talking about? [00:04:54] Speaker C: No. I think women should rock turtlenecks. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:56] Speaker C: They're wonderful. [00:04:57] Speaker A: I don't. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't think men's and women's fashion. You ever just say, like, oh, yeah, this is in for everybody. [00:05:04] Speaker C: Yes. [00:05:06] Speaker B: But again, I don't know what I'm talking about. So let's talk about Johnny Takes. [00:05:10] Speaker A: That's. Take time. [00:05:12] Speaker B: What week is this? What did we talk about this past weekend? [00:05:14] Speaker C: What week is this? [00:05:15] Speaker A: You preached. [00:05:16] Speaker B: I preached out of John 8 and 9. About spiritual blindness. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you feel, first of all, about eight and nine? I mean, two chapters worth. Can you talk about the process? [00:05:27] Speaker B: Actually, it was 7, 8 and 9. It's so much. This was the week where I started to question how we broke up our 16 weeks in John, really, for two reasons. One, where we're at. In seven, eight and nine, Jesus is back in the temple, back to confronting the religious leaders. And they're angry again about Sabbath rules, which is exactly what I preached on two weeks before. And we talked about this. But it did feel like we're hitting the same territory thematically again. And then just the amount of ground to have to cover because Jesus is back in the temple. He does this dramatic, come to me rivers of living water, promise of the Holy Spirit. Then it's the added on John 8 where he defends the woman accused of adultery, sends her accusers away, and then he comes back in, has the eye and the light of the world discourse, followed by healing of the blind man born blind. So that's a lot of territory. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:27] Speaker B: And I feel like it was too much for one sermon to kind of dance around all that stuff. [00:06:31] Speaker A: I mean, that was like, the idea, though, right? Is that we're like, well, we'll put seven, eight, nine together. Because there's some repeat themes here that it just feels natural to skip, maybe. So it wasn't like 7, 8, 9. It was like, here's a large portion of this chunk that we feel comfortable leaving out. Yeah. Because of how we've done things already. [00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And the way I went about it just. I didn't preach the woman accused of adultery. We've talked about a lot of sermons that we've preached on that passage. [00:06:56] Speaker A: I think it's in reference in three sermons. [00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was the reason for that. Not because I wanted to avoid it, but because there's so much other stuff to cover. And really became a theme of Jesus at the feast of Tabernacles, once again, in probably the perfect setting, inserting himself as the real presence of God that they're celebrating that was back with Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness. Jesus is in so many ways saying, yeah, that real presence of God, it's me now. I mean, and the implications that are huge. [00:07:30] Speaker A: It feels like it's still a powerful thing. I could imagine a world in which, though, like that metaphor and that language, specifically for the people who Jesus is talking to, it just feels so much bigger and more scandalous for some, or impactful or powerful for some. Does that kind of track. There's some things in here that I'm reading and I go, I know this is a huge thing to say in such a massive moment, and I'm almost a little envious of the Jewish people that he's with because I don't know that I naturally, like, feel the weight as much as his audience would have at the time. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I tried to spend more time really setting the scene, because we don't understand how, you know, culturally and generationally, I mean, all this stuff like these Jewish festivals and the story of Moses, like this is like, core to who they are as a people. And so when Jesus is messing with that, no wonder they want to kill him. And no wonder some think he's the Messiah, and no wonder some worship him. And no wonder, because it's that big of a deal. And so it's completely lost on us, the impact of these words. And so I think it does service to what Jesus and John are portraying in the story to say this is why it's such a big deal rather than just jumping to, Jesus is the light of the world. So if you feel like you're in darkness, Jesus is light. Very true. And that is the application that we went to. But let's take a moment and see what John is actually showing us, because if we were there, this would be scandalous and earth shattering and challenge national identity and challenge everything we know about who God is. And. And we can miss that. [00:09:14] Speaker A: And part of the art of preaching all the time is to shed some light, no pun intended, on some of these things that we can't naturally connect with in Scripture, like maybe a lot of people did. And that happens, I think, every single week we teach. But it feels so stark in these moments. Even what I preached, the feeding, the 5,000, I'm the bread of life, the bread that came from heaven. And, you know, people at the time. Did he just call himself Bread? That's crazy, man. Can you believe it? You know, and we're just like, yeah, bread's fine, you know, Our bread's good, or ooh, sparrow's nice, you know, let's go get some baked good. You know, the relationship even that we have with bread, even though it's everywhere still currently in our culture, it's just not the same. It's not stories about manna that we've grown up on. It's not all these things. And so, yeah, I thought you did a really good job of trying to make those connections, make us feel and understand a little bit more than just singing this little light of mine. Although you did sing. What was it like? Draw me close to you. What did you. [00:10:11] Speaker B: Open the eyes. [00:10:12] Speaker A: Open the eyes. Oh, my gosh. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was only the first service. [00:10:17] Speaker A: You only talked about that in the first service? [00:10:19] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot going on in my mind. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, dude. [00:10:23] Speaker B: Not everything got in. [00:10:24] Speaker A: I was at the 8:15 and the 11, and I guess it just slipped past me. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The story for those not at the 8:15, it's a story we told a lot amongst our friends. Our friend Casey Parnell, who was here for many, many, many years, was in a service at Westside, and the pastor had him pair up in twos, stare at each other nose to nose, and take turns singing the popular Paul Baloche song, Open the eyes of My Heart at each other's faces. The way Casey describes the awkwardness of that moment as, you know, some other young adult kid is staring at him nose to nose. Open the eyes of my heart Lord. Just amazing. The awkwardness of that. [00:11:09] Speaker A: That would be one of those moments, and I bet all of us have had these as. As worship leaders at one point or another where you're so glad to be in the band. [00:11:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Like something's happening. Their pastor's leading in a way, and you're like, oh, I don't have to do that. Boy, I'm glad he's leaving us up here for this. I don't want to participate. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Public confessionals, going around the circle and open the eyes of my heart, that's when you don't want to be on them. [00:11:31] Speaker A: I'm so glad I get to be a drummer and create ambiance right now. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Lindsey, when you're leading worship, are there moments when you, like, you're witnessing how the crowd is interacting with, like, a moment that we're missing? Do you ever those thoughts like, oh, he really shouldn't have said that. Or because of how you're seeing what's going on in the room and we're just oblivious to it? [00:11:53] Speaker C: Yes, I Think Lindsay's a Several come to mind right now? No, not every week. Not every week. I am in shock, though, at how you guys are so focused to where, I don't know, say, a large man could come walking through the front of the auditorium, and Evan doesn't notice. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Guilty. [00:12:16] Speaker A: I am amazed. [00:12:17] Speaker C: The focus is unreal. I don't know how you do it. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that was an interesting one. We had a gentleman that was trying to get the attention of the whole church by standing in the front while I'm preaching. And huge guy. What? Six, Six, Six, six, six. Big, Big guy. And he walked right in the front as I'm wrapping up a sermon, and it's like trying to draw the attention of the crowd to himself. I'm up there preaching, and because he came in at the end, it's about the time when ushers start moving around for communion. And so in my mind, I'm just like, oh, he must be a new giant usher, a new greeter who's getting ready to distribute communion for us. Turns out, no. He was trying to take over the church, and I had no idea. And I think you saw him. Yeah. You went and. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:04] Speaker B: Took him out. [00:13:04] Speaker A: Yeah, me and, like, six other guys, which was amazing. I ended up getting up next to him, like, talking to him. And then after this situation, it was funny. Like, the service ended, and, like, six guys stood up and were looking at me like, good job. We had your back. Or, you know, here we are. One of them was your husband, Eric. I think he came over from where he was sitting. There was all kinds of people. It was pretty funny. [00:13:28] Speaker B: And I have this pastoral fantasy of something. Some weirdo doing something in a service and asserting my authority from the stage, you know, and being like, excuse me, sir, not in God's house. You know, you have these imaginations of how you would, you know, really show up for the church. And then something like this happens, and I'm like, what? There was somebody in here, and, like, 10 guys are wrestling on the floor, and I'm. I'm just like. So anyway, First Corinthians. [00:13:57] Speaker A: Communion went great, guys. [00:13:58] Speaker B: That was awesome. That's absurd. [00:14:00] Speaker A: I wouldn't do anything different. [00:14:01] Speaker B: I failed. Not out of a lack of courage, but complete unawareness of situational awareness. Yeah. [00:14:08] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there is a lot of focus required. So I had you. I got your back. I was right there. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Maybe that's what we need to get training on is just situational awareness. Like, do you know what's going on in the room right now? You're looking at it, but you're not processing it. [00:14:19] Speaker A: Well, that's the thing. When I'm teaching, usually I'm really not looking at anybody. Sometimes I'll have people be like, I saw you looking at me while you're preaching. I was like, I didn't even know you were in this service. I think I was looking in your area. I wasn't looking in your eyes. [00:14:31] Speaker B: This happens less for me now, but for a while, I would find myself locking on to a person. If they're sitting under the light or something, my gaze would naturally go to them over and over and over. So if you're that person, you're like, what is his problem? Why is he singling me out and I'm not looking at the person? It's just, you know, you kind of have your routine and you get stuck on somebody. [00:14:56] Speaker A: If you're sitting under a light and you're being an active listener. Oh, yeah. My eyes will probably go in your direction because there's a little. I can feel the positivity over there. Yeah, I want a little bit more of that. There was a reaction. Speaking of crowd reactions to the discussion about the miracle and Jesus spits in the dirt or what do you think he did? You think he spits in his hands and then he picks up the dirt and then makes mud? Do you think he spits in the dirt and then picks it up? [00:15:21] Speaker B: John says he spit in the dirt. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Spits in the dirt, I guess. But is the dirt in anyway? Not important. This is the stuff I think about, though. Weird miracle. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:31] Speaker A: And I love that you acknowledge that and was like, this is. We've seen you do this all kinds of different ways, Jesus. So why this and why now? And even thinking about the experience of a blind man listening to what's going on around him, maybe first the discussion of, was he born this way or was it the sins of his parents? And the idea that that would be the discussion instead of, hey, there's a guy who probably needs some healing. We've got a healer with us. How cool is that? You talked about the participation in his own healing by having to go and wash his eyes. That was the kicker. Such an interesting take to me that I hadn't fully considered it unlocks some of these theological questions and probably creates some more at the same time. Can you go into greater depth of why that's important, the participation in your own miracle? [00:16:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And actually, in retrospect, I think if I was going to preach the sermon again, I'd probably spend a lot More time on the mechanics of why is Jesus doing this? Like this one, I think Jesus is constantly avoiding people, turning his miracle work into a formula, right? Well, Jesus does this and then this happens, and so he breaks out of that. He's always healing a different way. But this idea, in light of this conversation about the spiritual blindness of the religious leaders around him and spiritual blindness in general, that the Messiah is promised to come and break as the Son of righteousness that rises with healing in its wings, it speaks to this idea of, just because truth and light show up in a place doesn't mean you can see, right? And so he heals the blind man. We presume he heals the blind man in the moment when this mud goes on the eyes, but he still can't see until he walks it out. And compare that to the religious leaders who are blind. The light of the world is in the room, which means they could be operating with open eyes now, but they're not willing to walk in obedience enough to be washed to do what this blind man does. So I think it, again, is this illustration of the point of what Jesus is saying. And also it's an invitation that when we are confronted with the light, when we are confronted with truth, when we are healed, when we are experiencing an encounter with Jesus, we're not passive participants in that. We don't just sit by and say, okay, cool, is it done now? Am I good? Jesus invites us. It's the, you're healed, you're freed, you're forgiven. Go and send no more. It's, your eyes are open now. Go wash in the pool of siloam. And how we respond to that oftentimes is what dictates whether we walk in the miracle or whether we slide right back into the same old spot, which is either spiritual blindness or whatever spiritual darkness that we find ourselves in in the first place. And so it requires, I think, obedience and a willingness to say yes to Jesus, not just a passively, like, cool, I got it. Yeah. [00:18:29] Speaker A: And that leads to one of the great things I think anyone says about Jesus in all of Scripture, in that he's then confronted by religious leaders. Essentially, is this. Is it the sinner that is healing you or has healed you? And his response is so wonderful, I don't know if he's a sinner or not, but I was blind, and now I see, like, unbelievable stuff. And as you were talking about it on Sunday, how I experienced this because we're so deep in the game of faith in Christianity, and obviously for good reason, how we Talk about discipleship strategies, teaching teachings, teaching methods, and all of that is so good. And I also wonder how many people that we maybe are talking to and we're sharing this level of depth that we think we have may look at us and go, I have no idea about what track I'm on or how things. All I know is that I was blind and now I see. And what a sweet and beautiful approach to faith and discipleship. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And the flip side is, I think evangelism by education, you know, where it's like, well, if we just get people to understand everything, then they will come to faith. And again and again, we find that it's actually the encounter with Jesus that saves people. And what you learn about God then is the rest of your life, not the start of your faith. Being fully capturing and understanding and getting all of the T's crossed and the I's dotted before you say, okay, yep, it all checks out. Now. I'm going to put my faith in Jesus. The Jesus of the gospel just shows up out of nowhere, encounters people, radically transforms their lives. They have no idea what's going on. And then they get to decide, like, oh, man, I really want to follow this guy. I really want to find out more about him. I. I don't know anything about him, but I'm not sitting there begging anymore. I'm here and I can see. I think that's if I want anything for an evangelistic bent of our community, it's like, let's lead with that. We've been touched by Christ and that's done something. That's where we start. Not. Let me explain to you what you need to know so you can make an educated decision about your faith. Maybe that works for some people, but I think there's a transformative, effective encounter Jesus that blows it out of the water. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it's wise to resist the prescriptive nature of what road you could walk down there. Yeah, I think maybe that does work for some people. There's this intellectual gravity pull for some. I also wonder if this also speaks to the simplicity of. What if we stopped and evaluated simply how it feels to be in a service at Westside Church and even take out the words that we're using, the vocabulary. And that feeds into part of it, too. What's it like to even just be in the space or for people personally? What's it like when someone comes over to your house and we're so worried about a lot of these details and those are important, but I wonder if there's a way to think about church in the way of somebody may walk in and go, I'm not exactly sure what's happening, but I feel loved here, welcomed here. I feel there's something that kind of idea. I feel different after I walked out of here as opposed to how I walked in here, because that's a transformative thing too, that Jesus doesn't stop to give him the massive education and maybe he wasn't as interested as some other people would be, but leaves completely and dramatically transformed. [00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, there are ways to do that in excess that are emotionally manipulative, you know, where it's all about the feel and. And there's an intellectual dishonesty where we just kind of like stick our head in the sands and don't try to engage any kind of intellect or understand any good theology. And it's just, what do I feel today? And I think we've talked about this with our Pentecostal charismatic roots that can go real wacky. And so we're not saying, shut off your brain and come follow Jesus. We're saying, don't substitute an encounter with a living God through Jesus. Don't substitute that for head knowledge only. You know, experience him. Don't just learn about him. And I think, you know, if you attend a service here very quickly, we're not those kinds of people that you want to lead into this wildly emotional only kind of experience. And so I think. I think we do have a voice in that because being part of a Pentecostal tradition, but we're also leaning into some contemplative and some ancient things that hopefully not just bring balance, but lead us to that intentionality. I think it takes to swim in these waters of experiential Christianity. Right? [00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot there. And it's so easy to feel like you can just walk down one road and it's so tempting to just be kind of mono. This is how we're going to experience God and this is how we're going to talk about it. And this is how everybody's going to experience it. The exact same time is rarely the case. And I don't know, I'm just so curious how the future of the church goes with. We talked about it a little bit yesterday with mystics, and we've. Steve was saying this, and we've talked about it, I think in pockets over the last five or six years of sometime in the near future. Everybody that's following after Jesus will be a mystic. Brian Zahn describes the mystic as this experiential. Not somebody that can describe a peach to you, but someone who has tasted a peach and will tell you about that experience. And all this plays into the conversation of what does exactly that look like? And the word mystic is kind of scary and feelings are not what it's all about. But I feeling is good and it's nice. And I hope people feel the presence of God or feel like they had that encounter in its simplicity, you know, like, I don't know. What do you think? Mystical. Why were you talking about mystics yesterday, Lindsay? How'd that come up? [00:24:41] Speaker C: The context was series and sermon planning for the next year. And we have some of our ministry leaders and pastoral staff in this meeting. And we all pray and put up our. Hopefully our good ideas. And I threw up mystics because more and more I find that I learn a lot from looking back, which sounds however that sounds. But mystics always really resonate with me because I am a charismatic Christian and it is an experiential lived faith. I've read a lot of the mystics and I think their writing is beautiful. And what it creates in me is a hunger, a hunger to experience God. Not for the sake of experience or a feeling or an emotion, but because it's transformative and it's proof of goodness and faithfulness. And I think it gives some of our head, knowledge, legs, a little bit. Like, sure, we can argue about theology all day, but you can't fight me on the Holy Spirit, you know, speaking to me or, you know, whatever it might be. Like, you can't argue with that kind of a thing. So, yeah, I don't know. I think we can just. We can learn a lot from the people that came before us. And the mystics are a pivotal piece of our history as Christians. [00:26:09] Speaker A: And this blind man, a mystic, right, who would probably tell you, you guys can talk about the skin of the peach all you want and what the fibers are made up of on the outside. That's the fu. And I. That was fantastic. And I ate it and I want more. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And it points to the need for guardrails when you embrace a more mystic openness to like, we actually are going to embrace the mystery of the Holy Spirit rather than try to make him formulaic. Because as we've seen in the Book of Acts, everybody who tried to like, put the Holy Spirit in a box, it did not go well. Right? Simon the Sorcerer or Indiana Jones. Indiana Jones or not? [00:26:50] Speaker A: Last Crusade, Raiders of Last Night don't literally, don't put it in A box bad idea. [00:26:56] Speaker B: But it does require good leadership and good theology because of what you just said, Lindsay, when someone encountered Jesus, and it kind of has the ability to shut down a conversation or a disagreement. So if you don't have good theology in the waters, then anyone can say whatever wacky way off thing or manipulative or controlling thing and say, well, God told me. You can't fight that because God told me. And so that's why we need both. We need good theology mixed with the mystery of Christ in our midst. You miss either, and you go off in looney Tunes land in charismata, where everything's mystical and everybody gets to decide what Jesus is, which is horrible. Or you go into this intellectual only I don't need to experience Jesus because I understand him already. And this is what I was preaching against so strongly on Sunday. Well, I don't know if it's strong or not, but I felt strongly about it was, stop thinking you have it figured out. This is only the, you know, I quoted out of the Book of Job. All we've seen. These are mere glimpses. And so to think that, no, we've got it all figured out because we went to, you know, two years of. Of Bible college. Like, no, yeah, that's not it. You got to keep going. You got to keep learning. You got to keep changing way to. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Bring the balance to the conversation. [00:28:17] Speaker B: So there's my balance conversation. [00:28:20] Speaker A: Because it is true. And even I clocked what you were saying, too, Lindsay. Like, you can't argue with me over. And that's what the blind man's doing. Right? There's probably an interpretation of what he's saying that's kind of like, forget you guys who are trying to confront me about whoever healed me. You can argue with me on this. I was blind, and now I'm not. So do whatever you want with that. And so you're not. And yes, and we've also all seen the God told me garbage that is so pervasive and so much of especially charismatic Christianity and, wow, that'll mess up people and entire movements and churches. And that's not some words either. This haunts me every time I preach is that it's so hard to tie up a bow on so many things without these little qualifiers like this. I agree with everything Lindsay just said. And then when you're preaching, it's like. But also, you know, we got to be balanced. Be careful, everyone. So the podcast is good. I guess we can. We can talk through those things. [00:29:21] Speaker B: Well, and I. I would fight that preaching requires careful nuance. And I don't mean that, like, everything has to be wishy washy because, you know, there's angles and you got to satisfy everyone and make everyone happy. Not saying that at all. I'm saying this. Everything's black and white. Everything's binary. It's either this or it's that. We'll just lead you down to a real extremist kind of faith in whatever direction you're going, whether it's a certain stream or strain of theology, whether it's politics, whether, whatever. You're just going to go so hard and, and guess what? People who agree with you on those real black and white things will follow you and you'll get a big following. And so it's intoxicating. But look at the teachings of Jesus. Yeah, he can be black and white, but oftentimes he's speaking in these ways that everyone's like, what are you trying to say, man? Just try to say it. And he's like, okay, I'll just say it real clearly. The kingdom of heaven is like. And then he goes off into this metaphor and you're like, okay, well, that didn't help. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Oh, good, right. So everyone leaves and they don't know what he meant. The disciples come back embarrassed and like, all right, so what did that really mean? We appreciate you orating for a little while, but we're still just as lost as ever. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah. So I don't know. You want to follow the Jesus of the Gospels, Just buckle up for some unsatisfying answers. You know, everybody just wants, just tell me what to do, just tell me what to think. And it's like, well, yeah, follow Jesus is the answer. And if you're looking for certainty along the way, he might give it to you, he might not. [00:31:02] Speaker A: It's just so comforting, right? It's so comforting to have a tribe and a way and a lack of nuance and a black and white, and that's how empires are built and tribes are made since the beginning of history. It's just so much easier to fall in line and then believe hardcore on this thing. But that is the problem that Jesus creates. And really, you can make the argument that's why he's crucified, because he doesn't end up on anybody's good list by the end. The Romans are irritated by him because it's like, man, this guy's just kind of creating fuss for us all the time. We're sick of it. The Jews hate him because he's not Jewish enough for them, and he's not standing up for the temple. And so eventually he's left with, you know, we say the third way all the time. There's another way. Outside of the right and left of politics, there's a third way. He's left with whatever way. You know, maybe he's sixth or seventh in the middle of the culture that he's in where he's just not connected to anybody, and that gets him killed. And I think people need to understand that there's going to be moments in their own faith in Christianity where this real sticking with Jesus or at least having the patience to try to listen to the Holy Spirit or be prayerful about it or live differently. It's going to make you feel really lonely sometimes. And that's part of it. That's our own little desert experience that we all have. That's not like the desert fathers and mothers, the same kind of a thing. But we all, I think, have that wandering around in the wilderness part that actually is like a feature of faith and not a bug. [00:32:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think anytime you hear Jesus say my father, he's almost espousing a third way. I feel like to me, when I'm reading the teachings of Jesus, his response is, whenever he says, my father is or my father, I do what my father is, he's almost saying like, yeah, I'm not going to be a zealot for you. I'm not going to be a shill for Rome, and I'm not going to be a supporter of the religious order among the Jews, because my father is, and that he explains what God is up to. And I feel like we have to lead in the same way if we're doing it right. Hey, but what do you feel about this issue? And your answer? I'm going to know, are you right or are you left? Are you for this group or for that group? And I think we just have to figure out how to. How to be regular enough. Not occasional, but regular enough in the Jesus response of like, yeah, I don't know about that, but I do know about this. This is what God is doing. And I know this is what God is. And it's easier said than done when we're sitting on a podcast by ourselves. But this is the real stuff, right? [00:33:33] Speaker A: It's real pastoring. Yeah. When people want answers on specific issues from us for things, I think we sit in a place because of the church that we're attempting to build and the people that we know, where we know the nuances of the 20 different stories that we could think of in relation to your hot button topic that you want a yes or no on, and maybe even if it came down to it for us personally, our conviction that we do have a yes or no answer on it and we also know how to get to that yes or no has been very difficult and complex or case by case. And that just sounds wishy washy to some people. And I think I used to be in a camp that was like, no, you gotta just make a decision. And then you even do open up scripture and go, sometimes it just sounds like Jesus. That thing that seems wishy washy is really prayerful and discerning and full of wisdom. And I've been referencing it a ton. I'll do it one more time. Jesus with the coin and should we pay taxes to Caesar? And what a terrible, unsatisfying answer for everybody in attendance. What a bummer. He didn't pick a stinking side, man. Should we pay or not? Give unto Caesar. What is Caesar's stinking pastor, man? That Jesus we're following is not very clear. And apparently he's weak. That's the conclusion, right? The wishy washy or prayerful or thoughtful with wisdom is weak. And that's how we gotta avoid that in Christianity. [00:34:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I would say that for those that thought Jesus was too weak in his answers, the proof was in what he did. I mean, the proof is in that the zealot and the tax collector are in his crew and he's leading them. And the proof is in how he stands before Pontius Pilate and refuses to become defensive and try to get out. I mean, it's in his actions and in the fruit of the ministry of Christ that we see the strength of Christ. It's not in his. His stances on Rome. It's not in his stances on the Jewish, you know. Well, he does say things that make the Jewish leaders really mad about his stance on the temple. So even that, like he's throwing stuff out. And I just think every time we want to nail Jesus down on, oh, that's the formula, well, he kind of breaks it. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah, man, that's a tough. In my own faith journey anyway, when I finally got comfortable with that nuance, Christianity opened up and got more beautiful. And that's. If there's one thing I hope for, for people that have been Christians for a while, I hope they have that experience. Not my experience, but that feeling of this is hard. And I don't. This isn't an answer to all the questions on the test, it's not a score sheet. It's more difficult than that. And Christianity just gets so much better from that point on, I think. And it's ironic because it feels like that was the thing that some people in my life were trying to avoid for me in my adolescence of like, no, no, no, no, no, no, don't fall into that. You ever hear the don't be so open minded that your brain falls out? [00:36:35] Speaker B: Right. [00:36:37] Speaker A: Maybe there's some truth to that, but it's not open mindedness. It's this, oh my gosh, there's this experience and there's this prayerful discernment that I should seek after that is part of following Jesus. It's just so wonderful. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And a little exercise I do personally to try to stay somewhat out of the outrage of just day to day, what's going on, what am I mad about today on any given thing is to imagine, like, if I lived 100 more years looking back on this, what would I still care about? Well, those things probably matter more. The story of the day may not matter so much. And so to have a perspective that cares deeply for people and also doesn't assume that every single thing that we hear about deserves our full attention, our full outrage, our full response. But some things will come and go and that's how this life works. And we got to cling to Jesus and care deeply for people the way. [00:37:43] Speaker A: Those are the words of a patient person. Evan, I don't know that that's me, but I appreciate that you have that. So naturally. No, you're totally right. [00:37:52] Speaker B: It sounds good. I don't actually do it, but doesn't it sound nice? That's a podcast. [00:37:57] Speaker A: That's what this is about. Stuff that sounds nice. Not that we can relate to all of it, but stuff that sounds nice. You both are far more patient than me and I appreciate some of the dynamic that we have in meetings is that I just kind of get grumpy and go off on stuff and you both go, mm, mm, okay, there's some good in what you just said. And let me show you what that. And then I. And then we move forward as a. [00:38:20] Speaker B: Team and smart and maybe that's good, you know, if that's true, I don't know that it's as true as you're making it sound, but, you know, for anybody that is in our church, that feels like, oh, oh my gosh, why are you saying that? Why are you doing that? Then you can lead them into like a more patient approach. [00:38:38] Speaker A: I do. I represent them. [00:38:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:40] Speaker A: And it's certainly I. That as an exaggeration of what happens, I do feel that I like to be able to communicate my knee jerk reactions and quick thoughts and emotions, even at times and frustrations. And I feel like we've got a team that certainly isn't dismissive or anything, but impatience holds those passions and things that have certainly belong in the conversation but should not dominate it either. And we have that. I feel lucky to have that. Yeah. That's my confession to you, too. I feel lucky to have you guys. [00:39:11] Speaker B: That's really sweet. Yeah. [00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:15] Speaker B: It's a reminder, I think, every day when we're together. Not just you and I, Ben, but the team on Sundays, like all the wonderful people that volunteer their time and like, man, you can get really wacky in isolation. And we can all imagine our worst impulses just being allowed to go crazy if we were on our own and just thinking about God and life and family and politics and all that stuff without anybody around you, how dark that would get. And so to be in community, I think we talk about community and maybe it becomes white noise. Like, yeah. What does that even mean? Well, it means that we don't lose our minds and just give over to our worst impulses. Right. Because we have each other. [00:39:59] Speaker A: There's been so many times since we've become senior pastors where I'm like, I think I would have been fired or let go or chased away if I would have been by myself. There's been several meetings or even just conversations that we've had where I've gone into it being so sure of myself, and I've walked out, at least being very unsure of myself, if not completely turning around and seeing things from another perspective. Not in a bad way. I never feel like an idiot or shamed or whatever, but I do feel this deep relief of like, oh, my gosh, thank goodness someone else is thinking of that, because I didn't even cross my mind. That was not the approach that we were going to take. It's good. It's. It's a big relief. [00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Likewise. I often think Ben would have gotten fired many times if we didn't have shared leadership. [00:40:40] Speaker A: I bet you have thought that that was the only way Steve was going to let me into a senior pastoral in foursquare is if. If I had a partner. [00:40:50] Speaker B: You and me both, man. You and me both. [00:40:53] Speaker A: It's so great. And Lindsay's just like, I could do this better than both of you. [00:40:57] Speaker B: I don't need any help Stop it. [00:40:59] Speaker A: I'm just kidding. [00:41:00] Speaker B: We're running the risk of veering back into self congratulatory. [00:41:03] Speaker A: I was already thinking of Alyssa, actually, right after I said the first thing, so I'm just thankful for you guys. I was like, alyssa is going to love this. [00:41:09] Speaker B: I don't know if she makes it this far into our podcast episodes, but if she is, she's rolling her eyes so hard at us. [00:41:15] Speaker A: I've noticed that Apple Podcasts has started using AI to divide up the sections of the podcast. I'm so curious what ours looks like. [00:41:26] Speaker B: What are they gonna label these conversations? [00:41:27] Speaker A: Did you guys enjoy the super bowl, by the way? Was that fun? [00:41:30] Speaker C: I did. [00:41:31] Speaker A: Let's go. [00:41:32] Speaker C: I know. I was so surprised. Well, apparently that was a really dumb game to enjoy because it was quite slow and sleepy, apparently, but I found it quite entertaining. [00:41:40] Speaker B: Great. [00:41:41] Speaker C: Yes, I really enjoyed it. We watched the whole thing start to finish. Don't even get me started on that halftime show. It made my life. [00:41:49] Speaker A: Your life. [00:41:51] Speaker C: I love Bad Bunny so much. [00:41:52] Speaker A: You thought it was the best one ever. [00:41:54] Speaker C: I haven't seen all of them, but, man, I love it. It was so joyful, so celebratory. Oh, man. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Did anyone have, like, family members that hate Bad Bunny and watched like, the. The alternate Kid Rock thing? [00:42:08] Speaker C: Can we plead the fifth? [00:42:09] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. You have family that watched it? [00:42:12] Speaker A: I do. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Okay. [00:42:13] Speaker A: What was their. [00:42:13] Speaker B: What was their take? We won't say who. Which family. [00:42:17] Speaker C: I wasn't told fully because the person telling me knew my receipts response would be one of irritation and not graciousness. So I don't know. I don't know what they thought. [00:42:29] Speaker A: I just always find it so funny. I. I'm a football fan. My whole life it's been like, yeah, there's a half drum show and so. And so's performing. I'm gonna go shoot hoops. You know, like, and. But never anti. Whatever. It was just like, oh, this isn't my thing. And the fact that it just gets so much. [00:42:42] Speaker B: Such a flash point, such a. Like a cultural, political flashpoint. [00:42:46] Speaker A: I was like, we're gonna argue about this. We're gonna argue about this. It is what it is. I would argue. I mean, I thought it was the energy, the sheer energy. People would be like, oh, I wish it was in English. I'm like, I think you could just feel the energy was off the charts. The Bruno Mars did the 2013 Super bowl, and the energy was insane. That guy is such a perfect showman. And I feel like Bruno Mars isn't in the Headlines as much anymore. But that's the only one that I would think of. And a lot of people would say Prince's. Prince did purple rain and it started raining like a decade ago. Something like that. And that was pretty epic. But. Yeah. [00:43:30] Speaker B: Which is crazy because he's been dead for like 12 years. [00:43:32] Speaker A: It was like four years ago. Prince had this. [00:43:36] Speaker B: That's what was so impressive. [00:43:37] Speaker A: And I kept saying, am I the only one seeing this? Yeah. Was it. [00:43:41] Speaker B: It was a fever dream that Ben had once. [00:43:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:43] Speaker A: That might have been like 2012. Yeah, something like that. Michael Jackson one was huge 25 years ago. [00:43:51] Speaker B: Anyway. Yeah. Anyway. I always think, like, I don't know that I look to the super bowl halftime artist to inform anything about, like, my worldview. [00:44:00] Speaker C: 100%. [00:44:02] Speaker B: This becomes such a thing is fascinating. [00:44:05] Speaker A: Or that the NFL is making a statement. Like, they're literally like, how many social media followers does this guy have? Cool halftime showing. Get him in there. Oh, he's got a global, amazing. Get him in there. They don't care. They're trying to make money, man. [00:44:18] Speaker B: That's wild. But Ben, I felt like you would have been proud of me because watching the game, I've seen enough football this season even to know how slow and awful the game was to watch. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Nice job. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah. I was like, I get this. I get that the defense is just crushing and in a way that's making this game a slog. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it was. It was that I was watching. And of course, as a Seahawks fan, I was. I was elated and having a blast the whole time, but very aware of, like, this is not a game that Everybody's gonna love. 12 to nothing for field goals. Jason Myers is like climbing the charts for odds to be the mvp, the kicker. You know, like, everybody loves this storyline. And of course, I didn't care. Make it as boring as possible. [00:45:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Just make sure the Patriots lose bad. [00:45:06] Speaker A: Yeah. And they did. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Oh, okay. So how does. How does the Patriots quarterback survive this? [00:45:13] Speaker A: Such a good question. So he was second in voting for MVP this last year. He missed being the MVP of the league by one vote, which I thought was crazy. The story behind them is that they've played the easiest schedule all the way through the year in history. And then they even got to play a backup quarterback in the semifinal game, which is unheard of and a very nice perk for them. And so he has gone from sure thing, 22, 23 year old kid. He's amazing. Oh, my gosh. Drake may too. Oh, really fast. And so I kind of feel Bad for him. It's such a brutal world, man, where one game you make the super bowl and now everybody's like, yeah, I don't. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Know about this guy. I mean, hard to watch, right? How badly it went for him. [00:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah, like, yeah, rough. He played a really good Seahawks have a legit good defense. But, yeah, how you come back? I think it'll be a massive. If you guys watch any football early next year, everybody will be talking about this. What's his response for the first four weeks? Does he play any good? [00:46:11] Speaker B: Is he dead? [00:46:11] Speaker A: Is he not? People want quarterbacks to be heroes or dead in the water so fast in football, it's scary. I don't know if I'd ever want my kid to be a big time quarterback. Nothing harder in sports, I don't think. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Yeah. That's why I'm not encouraging my kids to become pro ballers. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Jack wants it. Evan, he wants it. Why would you deny him that? Training. [00:46:33] Speaker B: Okay. You coach him, you get him, you get them there. Ben, I don't know how to coach quarterbacks. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Pitchers, that's all I got. Softball? Any softball happen this spring? Justin and I, our kids are on the same team. Really? [00:46:44] Speaker B: This year? Little League. Oh, that's fun. Yeah. So you guys will be all the same games together? Are you coaching it? [00:46:49] Speaker A: I'm the coach. [00:46:50] Speaker B: Nice. Yeah. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Forest has no idea what he's in for. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Oh, man. That's going to create complex feelings for him and how he views church based on how you coach him. [00:47:03] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Yeah. We'll have to talk about this next time. All right.