Good and Beautiful

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Evan Earwicker. And it's been a couple weeks, More than a couple weeks. A couple months, I think since we were here last. [00:00:24] Speaker A: It's been a couple months. [00:00:25] Speaker B: I don't know, Lindsay. [00:00:26] Speaker C: You know, it's been a couple months. July was our last one. I know. We're the worst. [00:00:30] Speaker A: What's happened since? [00:00:31] Speaker B: It's summer. It's summer. It's hard to get us all in the same room on these weeks, you know, but here we are. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Yeah, we're all settling back in for the fall. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:41] Speaker A: You guys have vacations coming up. Anybody leaving? [00:00:45] Speaker B: No. [00:00:45] Speaker C: No, I don't think so. [00:00:46] Speaker B: No. No. No. Well, I'm going with our team to Turkey in a few weeks. [00:00:51] Speaker A: I'm gone for district conference a couple days, but. Yeah, no, like, we're pretty much. We're just locked in til Christmas now. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:00:58] Speaker C: Till after Easter. Really? [00:01:00] Speaker B: Till after Easter? [00:01:02] Speaker A: It is one big long season, right? That's how it feels every year when Christmas is done, I feel like Easter is immediately happening every time. [00:01:13] Speaker B: And with the kids now back in school, like, you don't take a vacation the week after they start. Right? Did your kids any tears starting school this week? [00:01:21] Speaker C: Only from me. [00:01:22] Speaker B: Oh, fair enough. [00:01:24] Speaker C: Rosie started kindergarten. Who doesn't cry? Yeah, I had to, like, leave her room very quickly, and I was like, quick, a bathroom. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Find a bathroom. I know you cry in front of. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Your kids a lot. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, I cry all the time. So. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I do not. Shocker. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Spoiler alert. [00:01:45] Speaker A: I bet Alyssa does. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:48] Speaker A: She's more of a feeler than you. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:51] Speaker A: I cry more than Rebecca in front of the kids. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Really? [00:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:01:54] Speaker B: I mean, the ER nurse thing for so many years has to really harden you emotionally. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, she's. She's really good at, like, just. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Yeah, we. [00:02:06] Speaker A: I joke with her because the few times our kids have gotten hurt, and by hurt, I mean, like, Jovi split her chin open, you know, so it wasn't like, just a band aid, but it was. She panicked. She hated it, freaked out. I had to handle it. And I was like, really? What is wrong with you? You're in literally the story she's told. You guys are the worst of the worst of the worst of the worst. And, yeah, so there's these different little pockets of how she compartmentalizes things that I still haven't, like, cracked the code on. There's no necessarily, like, not necessarily a rhythm, but, yeah, she can control those emotions better than anybody. I cried pretty hard at Freaky Friday. Freakier Friday. We actually ended up watching it with the Parnells, which was funny. [00:02:50] Speaker C: I cried, too. [00:02:51] Speaker A: O. They played the right music toward the end, and there was, like, this mom daughter moment, and I was like, oh, no, no. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Lindsay Lohan, Jamie Curtis, they got us. [00:03:01] Speaker A: Joel looks up at me, you know, and he was kind of like, huh. I wonder why you're feeling so many things right now. [00:03:09] Speaker B: That's amazing. Yeah. [00:03:11] Speaker A: You cry at movies? [00:03:13] Speaker B: No. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Do you cry? [00:03:14] Speaker B: Not much. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:16] Speaker B: How much? [00:03:16] Speaker A: When's the next time you're gonna cry, then? [00:03:18] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:03:19] Speaker A: I feel like, you know, because it only happens so often. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Oh, man, that'd be something big, like. [00:03:26] Speaker A: Clara's graduation from high school. [00:03:28] Speaker B: I don't even know if that would do it right. Maybe her wedding. [00:03:30] Speaker A: Okay, there you go. [00:03:31] Speaker B: That makes me sound like a monster. I'm not a monster. [00:03:34] Speaker A: I don't think so. I don't think that means you can't connect emotionally. [00:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:45] Speaker C: Or maybe. [00:03:45] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I'm totally not a sociopath. It's fine. I totally empathize. Oh, my goodness. I feel. I do feel, and. But just to the point of, like, tears rolling down my face is so rare. [00:04:00] Speaker A: Sure. Well, what are we defining as crying? Like, tears have to come out. [00:04:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. What are we defining as crying? [00:04:07] Speaker C: I would think tears. [00:04:08] Speaker B: Tears. [00:04:09] Speaker C: To cry without tears. That's weird. Is that possible? [00:04:13] Speaker A: But, like, your eyes well up, right? [00:04:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Where you feel the emotion and, like, you feel the catch in your throat. [00:04:18] Speaker C: I would say, oh, that's not crying. [00:04:20] Speaker B: Because I'll experience that. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Fairly frequently. [00:04:23] Speaker C: Sure. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Okay. To, like, the point of, like, sobbing. Wait a minute. Tears rolling down like you were in Freakier Friday. I wasn't heaving. [00:04:36] Speaker A: It was a very much more romantic cry in that. I mean, I'm not a stranger to the heaving cry, for sure. [00:04:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that happens. [00:04:44] Speaker A: But that was. I was a little bit more controlled in McMenamins, you know? [00:04:48] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. And in pastoral ministry, Ben, do you feel like what Rebecca feels with er, where obviously she cares about patients? Sure. But there's a compartmentalization. Do you ever feel that when you're doing pastoral ministry, where it's like, you're empathizing and you're there, but also it's not like you're entering fully into the crisis or the moment? And what's healthy? What's like the healthy level of feeling. But not. Yeah. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Where I've gotten to. Because these are some of my favorite things. I don't know if I mentioned on here before, I really enjoy doing memorial services. And that can sound weird and creepy on the surface, but really, it's. I've come to understand and value so deeply the mourning and grieving process. And so I think where I find the healthy balance is. Yeah. Empathizing with people in the room with what you're talking about. It reminds me of inviting people in to talk through the service and how we're going to honor their loved ones. And I'm deeply empathetic. And I'm also conscious of the honor that I have of helping bring people and be a part of this beautiful process that is like the life and death moment. Right. And so that's how I. I compartmentalize and keep a good distance. Very much participating in, but understanding what my job is and not my job. And like. But I've got to stay strong. I don't feel that way. It's my job, and I need to be under control enough to do this beautiful thing that helps everybody else reach the conclusion of the process. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:06:25] Speaker A: Is that kind of how you go through it? [00:06:27] Speaker B: And you're right. There is a job to be done as far as you're offering hope. Right. In crisis or strength, when everybody else is just falling apart. Because especially in, like, a traumatic crisis moment where you're showing up almost in that chaplain kind of role as a pastor, where it's right after a death or you get the call and you're at the hospital as someone is dying, there is a. I think there is, you know, pastorally, just a calming presence that you have to bring. If you came in and you're just, like, shaking and weeping, like, maybe that doesn't do the job of bringing this hope and this peace that we have in Christ. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm good at mourning with people. Like a friend go into the living room and they're suffering, and I can lay down on the floor next to them and suffer with them. Like, I can do that, but that's not the job. They're not asking me to approach them as a pastor. Right. Your role becomes very different in that context. Both are important and beautiful. But the pastoral response is to not answer every single question perfectly and help usher everyone into this next phase of life. And you guys, it's beautiful. Like, of all the things in our job that we do get credit for or we get seen for memorial services is not really on that list or helping people through grieving and loss. But it might be the best part of our job, or at least the most meaningful part of our job that I've ever experienced. [00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah, we're talking today about the book and the series that we've been going through these last six weeks called the Good and Beautiful God and the Good and Beautiful Life, the Good and Beautiful Community. It's a series of books written by James Brian Smith. And it's formation. It is how do we integrate both elements of our faith? Right. A deep inner life with Jesus and also an outward focused expression of that deep inner life that looks like community and looks like evangelism and looks like these pieces of welcoming others into faith. And when we talk about things like death and memorials, like we just did, everything is seasoned by this idea that when we invite the presence of Jesus into our lives and even things that should be devastating or should be hopeless, all of a sudden take on this element of beauty and goodness because Jesus is the embodiment of that. And as we, I think, Lindsay, you introduced us to the book, right? And as I was even reading the first few chapters of Good and Beautiful God early on, I was like, yeah, I think this is the whole deal. I think this is Christianity, not him or the book, but this idea that when we get to know God as Jesus talks about him, when we get to understand the character of God as Jesus revealed, what is on the other side of that is good and beautiful always. [00:09:27] Speaker A: I'm wondering if maybe the spiritual formation movement is summed up more clearly in my mind this way that a lot of self help books that you read, you'll see words like value and success and influence and increase. And these end up, if you read in between the lines are kind of the goals of the book. You want to gain these things. And there's moments in the spiritual formation world where I can feel like it's kind of self helpy. But when it's done well, I think those words instead are contentment and peace and grace. Right. Does that sound right, Lindsay, you being in the formation world? [00:10:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with that. I think one of the biggest critiques of the spiritual formation movement is because it's very internal focused, it's very self focused. But the purpose of spiritual formation is to influence the world around you. We are spiritually formed for the sake of others, not just for ourselves. And so I think when you mention qualities like contentment, joy, peace, the human soul longs so desperately for those things. And so to be a person that can regularly embody those characteristics and fruits of the spirit that people want that, you know, and so that's. That's very influential, I think, to do that as a Christian. [00:10:55] Speaker A: And so it does what you're talking about. It takes. We would say death bad. And this book and this author and Jesus would invite us to say good and beautiful. Actually, that process. Good and beautiful, hard and full of grief and good and beautiful. Right. It's all included. And that's kind of what's been hitting me most on this entire journey through this book, which, by the way, really tempted my last time teaching to it to call it the Good Bold and Beautiful series. But I didn't do that. [00:11:26] Speaker C: Just like the soap opera. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a bold and beautiful joke in here that's really easy to make, but that's kind of what's been grabbing ahold of me is, is the reclaiming, right. The redemption of life that Jesus provides. [00:11:40] Speaker B: And I think this is maybe a new concept as far as the approach to our Christian faith and our pursuit of Christ for people that come out of different streams. And I'm not here to dog on other streams of Christianity, but there are elements, whether it be Catholicism or Calvinism, that just have a much harsher view of ourselves and a harsher view of how God sees us. And I think one of our goals through this series was to help people understand what, you know, theologically our view is, is that we're created in the image of God. What he creates is good, and he is on a redemptive mission to restore that beauty because of his great love. And I even quoted, you know, the Apostle John in one John where he says, God is love. Some of these things sound overly familiar, maybe, maybe cliched or whatever, but when they become foundational truths in our approach of our entire faith, it's actually quite profound. As opposed to, God's angry at me. I need to obey so that I can be accepted. Some of these things get replaced with this view in our tradition. And I think our church and our style of teaching where we say, let's start from a different starting point where God is desperately in love with you and he will stop at nothing to get to you and to bring redemption and to tell a beautiful story with your life, that is a radically different starting point. [00:13:09] Speaker A: How revolutionary do you think that is for, like, how many people, let's say, just in our seats, that starting with the approach that God is not angry with you, he's not the Father that's looking for every opportunity to create discipline, but he's the loving Father. It's the foundational. I said those words several times. And in the middle of teaching me, like, I wonder who that means something to or how many in here. Because it does sound cliche. Does it just sound cliche? Because I'm a pastor and I've been in it in the water so much. Like, how many. What percentage of our group do you think that that was, like, relevant toward? [00:13:43] Speaker B: I think my tendency is to assume that everyone's gonna be like, yep, we've heard it all before. [00:13:49] Speaker A: I do that all the time. [00:13:50] Speaker B: But then we preach these messages and I get so many people coming up or, you know, had coffee yesterday with one of the men in our church and just reaffirming like, no, this is like eye opening and trans, not my preaching, but these concepts of how we think about ourselves and God, it's not. I don't think it is cliche. I think people need to hear this probably again and again and again for years, especially if they've come out of kind of these harsher, more authoritarian styles of understanding their faith. So I would say more than I think are the people that are receiving this and be like, wow, that actually is transformational in how I view myself and God. What do you think, Lindsay? [00:14:37] Speaker C: Yeah, I heard a preacher a really long time ago say that God's in a good mood and that God really likes you. And it feels a little, like, maybe a little bit cheesy. But that hits me different than when I hear God is desperately in love with you. And I think because we do hear that a lot in church, God loves you so much. God loves you. God loves you. But when you think, well, God actually really likes me too. And God isn't angry, like he's in a good mood, like he's stoked. And when he looks at my life, my life brings him joy. Not because I'm perfect, but because he created me, you know, and he wants me to be here and experience this life. So it still hits me different after, you know, hearing it. I grew up in church. I've been saved for most of my life. I followed Jesus for most of my life. So I think you're totally spot on, Evan. I think people need to hear this again and again and again and again. And, yeah, it's just. It can feel cliche. And we need to reframe these truths in a new and fresh way so people can continue to grasp that, yeah, God actually really likes us. [00:15:44] Speaker A: One of my biggest deficiencies as a teacher is my huge fear of cliche. And I want to embrace pieces of that. And some of it is the game of how often we do this. And even just for your own mind, after a while, you're like, I want to make it sound different. I want it to feel different. I want it to hit different. Right. But the other side of that is I do. I avoid stuff. Even saying these phrases that were directly from the book and feeling this need on the platform to be like, I got to get past this as quickly as possible. That's fine. Good. It'll be the foundational. But let's get into the meat. Right? But that's the meat. That's the thing. And a big danger, let's say, not even just for a teacher in the Christian space, but for a Christian themselves, of course, to not get bored or tired of the thing that literally makes us and to figure out maybe some different ways to see it and some camera angles to understand a little bit more. And that creates interest, but it is what it is in the end. And preaching that with repetition is the way. [00:16:40] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And some of the negative feedback we get from maybe longtime Christians that have heard this before a lot is kind of like, yeah, we get it. We get it about the grace of God and God's love for everybody, but when are we going to get to. And then fill in the blank on behavior modification, basically? When are we going to get to the. [00:17:02] Speaker A: Or politics. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, the real stuff. Because we get it. And I just think. To think that we're going to move past internalizing the mercy of Christ and the grace of God and the love of God to get to the real stuff is missing the point. Because if we really sit in. In those foundational pieces of the nature of God, we're going to find that we actually need to sit long. You know, it's like. And some of our, you know, people that we really look up to and the guys that are listed a lot in. In James Brian Smith's work for Rich Mullins and Dallas Willard, and on and on the list goes. These aren't guys that, like, got it about the love of God and sitting with Jesus and then moved on to the real stuff. It's when you make your whole faith and your whole life about these things that the well gets deeper. And so maybe our job as preachers is to not have it become background noise that we just keep regurgitating the same thing, but that we're doing the hard work of bringing fresh life to what is going to be the message to the end of our days. Right. Yeah. [00:18:12] Speaker A: Because that is like the hard thing. But maybe that's what we're learning through the good and beautiful. It's the most beautiful thing, all at the same time. It's one story that we're preaching overall that has one ending and that is the grace and the love of God. And there's not many, you know, let's say directors in film or something like that that are working with something like that. Right. They're very different endings and very different beginnings. And they try to structure this with interesting and different kind of characters. And certainly a lot of that exists within the realm of scripture. But how often we do it over and over and over again. Yeah, it's, it's. And maybe that's where churches get weird, or maybe I won't even say that. Maybe that's where I've gotten weird before, is I gotta find, you know, what those same emails would say as the meat. Where's the real meat in here? Because the love of God can't be the meat of it, right? And that's where stuff gets off course and that's where it can get narcissistic or that's where it can get really poor. Theology even is because we kind of get bored with that and we're looking for something better or bigger. [00:19:14] Speaker B: And here's the example. This is, you know, the Apostle John versus Judas Iscariot. It really is because both are with Jesus, both are watching, both are listening, both are hearing the teachings, seeing what he's doing, and the conclusion they come to can't be further apart. Where John at the end of his days, sits down and says, God is love. And Judas says, why can't we use the money that was wasted on worship Jesus to help and feed the poor or to do this and that? [00:19:43] Speaker A: And can I ascribe value to Jesus in what he got? Right? [00:19:48] Speaker B: And one is transactional and one is deeply relational. And if we ever come to the point where we would look at the life of John and be like, okay, got it, John. Now when can you start acting more like Judas? We've obviously missed the point, but that's the natural, I think draw is always towards Judas, towards this idea of like, okay, great, yeah, we get it. Can we get to more of a transactional thing that makes sense on paper? Yeah. [00:20:11] Speaker A: Is that the business of church then that kind of represents that relationship? Because a business at different moments may remake themselves, right? They've got a brand new product that they've just rolled out and they've completely rebranded the entire thing altogether. And now come and see and purchase and engage with this brand new thing that can shape and change your life. And the church, when bought into that, of wow, we've got this new ideology that we've added and we've adjusted this and that. It can be attractional. Right. You can build a church at least for a time on something like that as a business standpoint, but it fails to capture what our goal is as Christ followers. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think we saw kind of the attractional church models really in their heyday, mid-90s, late-90s, built a lot of big churches. You know, we were in that wave here at our church, and I think that has a place in a season. But we've also seen a lot of those millennials who grew up in that season walk away. And a report came out just yesterday that there are more Gen Z engaged in faith and in churches today than all the other generations combined currently in churches. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Fascinating. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Fascinating. There's this resurgence among Gen Z, and in a time where I would say, by and large, we're not just embracing an attractional model in churches, I think there has been a shift. And so what a strange thing. And maybe it is a reaction to a world that is constantly feeding. Excuse me, feeding new and shiny and algorithmic entertainment. Switch back towards, like, what about the ancient things, you know, what about ancient wisdom and faith and insights and relationships and all those things that is somehow compelling to a younger generation. Fascinating. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Though I hope that some of that too is the millennial sobriety in faith. Maybe of maybe. Because I got to believe that millennials are leading a lot of these Gen zers. Would that be right? Certainly not across the board, but I gotta believe that there's a lot of them. Hopefully that's the reclaiming out of bitterness of the millennial generation then into something that's life giving, that can lead a younger generation. [00:22:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:32] Speaker A: So we're not parenting Gen Z. [00:22:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:34] Speaker A: We're parenting Gen Alpha. You have Gen Z. Claire has Gen. [00:22:39] Speaker B: Z. I think Claire's Alpha. So this would be like, I guess so my wife is like the year where it switched from Gen X to Gen Z. She was born in 82. 80, 81. So that's kind of the line. Right. And so I suppose there are some millennials who are raising Gen Z, but mostly Alpha. [00:23:04] Speaker A: Who's making these rules? Because the millennial is. Is huge. Right. Isn't that a big space amount of years? They're not all equally split apart. Right? [00:23:13] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:23:15] Speaker C: I don't know either. There's Elder Millennials. I've heard this term geriatric. [00:23:20] Speaker B: Geriatric. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Who were born in like, 75. [00:23:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:23:26] Speaker A: Doesn't it go that far? [00:23:27] Speaker B: No, it goes to 81. No, 81 is the. The cutoff. And then you're into Gen X, really? Yeah, that's what I heard. [00:23:37] Speaker A: I think. I feel like I'm making this up as we go along. It's all vibes. I don't know. You feel like all that to. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Article that did the. It's Christianity Day. We'll put this in the show notes. But Gen Z now leads in a church attendance compared to all the other generations combined. So really, really fascinating stuff. And we're experiencing that. I would say we see that here locally, there is a hunger for faith amongst Gen Alpha and Gen Z, and it's beautiful. [00:24:08] Speaker A: Yeah. My optimistic take would be that two generations came out of it pretty bitter. Right. The Gen X has a pretty rough relationship with especially Christianity and millennials. And I'm. My optimistic hope is that that was redeemed somewhere along the way. And these younger generations are even learning from that group that has done what we're talking about in this conversation, gotten back to the basics of it somewhere along the road. And that's kind of a beautiful story arc of all of it. It almost gives you something to do with that bitterness, right. That maybe an optimistic look of bitterness is that it can motivate into something wonderful and beautiful. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And we're not writing off millennials either. I mean, we're both millennials, Ben. Yeah. All three of us. And as we lead the church, we find a lot of millennial families are joining us and, you know, with young kids and so definitely high hopes across the board for what God's doing, but just encouraging as we see younger and younger generations and people walking into the doors of church and reconnecting and getting baptized. [00:25:14] Speaker A: Josh Cordell at our church doing an incredible job of being on call essentially for baptisms. It is fun to see this. You know, I always hate the word revival, but what's happened here at Westside feels like a version of that to me. You know, and I'm not going to be shy to. To say the movement is happening, that feels real, genuine. It doesn't feel overly marketed. It just feels like it's happening, which is a big marker of revival to me. [00:25:42] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:25:43] Speaker A: Did any of these strike you guys more than others? You know, we went through the introduction about how this is an invitation that God provides to us, not a mandate. The good life. Can people really change Where Christ is formed in us, in community, practicing the way of love made for more. Any of these specific, like we've talked about so far, Camera angles or perspectives or buckets? Any of those speak to you more? [00:26:08] Speaker B: Well, since I can't really remember the first four or the first three, I'd love to talk about your two weeks. Lindsay, you spoke. And I want to talk about this a lot, actually, because you spoke for the first time on a Sunday morning. And something that we've been looking forward to the day when you would say yes to this for a long time, did just an excellent job walking us through what it looks like in this, this kind of new community that Christ forms among us and the need for each other. But walk us through. Like, what was your process to getting to say, yeah, I think I will say yes to preach. And then what was it like preparing for that and then. And then speaking? [00:26:46] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. Well, like you said, I said no for a really long time. I don't love public speaking. I think I'm very much aware of the weight that a person speaking on a Sunday morning carries. And I have never really been interested in that. I'd rather just stay in my lane. But I just finished up a master's program in May of this year, and part of that program I attended in person residencies. At my very last one, I just heard the Holy Spirit so clearly tell me, like, this is actually next. Like, you need to say yes to this. And there's a lot of really cool things that happen around my yes. But a big one was women in ministry and the need for women in leadership specifically. I think a woman's perspective and voice is actually extremely important. And to be asked is an honor. It's a weighty, weighty thing to carry. But I just couldn't. I couldn't say no anymore. So had the conversation with both of you kind of right after I came back from my residency. I was put on the schedule pretty freaking quickly after that. Yeah. But having. I had a lot of time to prepare, which I appreciated. And my master's program, which was all about spiritual formation, really lended itself very well to studying for this message. Community specifically. Like, I just learned a ton about how paramount that is to our formation and our faith. So I'm really thankful. I knew all the authors to go to. I knew the books. I could pull a lot from what I had been studying for the past two years. And then speaking. I was so nervous, you guys. I could feel my heart beat the entire morning, like, in my fingertips. And what else? Yeah, it was. It was very. There was a lot of adrenaline, but I'm pleased. I'm pleased with how it went. Yeah. I'll keep saying yes to it, so. Yeah. [00:28:54] Speaker B: Yeah, was. I know. For me, I don't know if it'll ever stop. The 815 feels like you're really working out the material in real time and then adjusting. Did you experience that? [00:29:06] Speaker C: I'm not as skilled at that as you two. I was pretty glued to my notes the whole morning. But I did find, like, I made a silly joke that was kind of off the cuff, and it got a pretty good laugh, you guys. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna keep that. [00:29:20] Speaker A: I was so happy when I heard you made that up on the spot. [00:29:22] Speaker C: I did. It just came to me. It was a Destiny's Child joke which might have been lost a little bit at the age 15, but it got enough of a laugh. [00:29:29] Speaker A: I was not. It was shocked. Shockingly not. You got very much enough of a response in the 8:15, for sure. [00:29:35] Speaker B: And I made a Blues Brothers joke this Sunday that got zero laughs. [00:29:39] Speaker C: I didn't get it. [00:29:40] Speaker B: So stupid. [00:29:41] Speaker C: I'm sorry. I just didn't get it. [00:29:42] Speaker B: My references. [00:29:43] Speaker A: You were really hard on yourself this weekend. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Terrible. So well done. The Destiny's Child I thought was excellent. [00:29:50] Speaker C: Yeah, Destiny's Child. But, yeah, I think also going into it, I just didn't know what to expect because I've never done it before. I've spoken to youth or young adults. Like, I've done that before, like, preparing, speaking and stuff. But, yeah, Sunday's just kind of a different animal. So now I know what to expect. I don't think the. The adrenaline rush will be quite as severe next time. [00:30:12] Speaker A: What's the. What's the weight that you're talking about? [00:30:15] Speaker C: What's the weight for you? I think people are looking to you as the authority on what we're speaking about. And while maybe that's true to an extent, the reality is, like, we're all working this out, too, in real time. You know, we're studying as best we can. We're preparing as best we can. But, you know, I. I made a joke about how I didn't want to, like, hang out with people or something, and Eric was like, community for community, you know, like, so quick to be like, you just preached on this, and even now you don't. It's hot. You know, we're. We're working this stuff out, too. And so I feel that tension, like my lived faith and experience versus the ideal that I'm preaching on a Sunday, and there's a gap between the two for everyone, I think, that speaks. And to say that there's not. I don't believe you. I think you're a liar. So I feel that. And, yeah, I want to do well. I want to speak well. I want to do my church proud and all that. So I feel that way as well. Kind of a. Not performance, but a little bit. I want to do a good job. So I feel that also. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I wasn't there. I would never be present when you speak. No, I'm kidding. We had vacation scheduled, so not being there, it felt strange to have you speaking for the first time. And I was like, yeah, have fun. Bye. [00:31:41] Speaker C: Good luck. [00:31:42] Speaker B: But I heard reports back from people that were there before. I listened to it, and I purposely didn't ask anybody, like, how did she do? I just wanted to see if it would come up. And it did. And just such glowing reviews about your speaking skill, your poise, your content, all of that. So I was just so pleased to hear that it went so well. And then when I listened, I was like, I wouldn't even have any notes for this. And I have notes for you all the time. [00:32:07] Speaker A: All the time. Every time, actually. Every time. Which I actually really love that. Yeah, we talked about that before Lindsay went up. I was like, do you want feedback as we go? And you were like, yeah, of course. And then you finished the 8:15. And I was like, I just can't. Anything I have would be making it up. It was so professional and on point, and a professional can sound bad. It wasn't that at all. It was very engaging and loving of the community and meaningful. Yeah, I was so. That's another word that doesn't work, but I can't think of a better. I was just so proud. I was proud of you. I was proud of our church for where we're at, and it was a cool. All at once. I wanted to be like, no, you guys, this is who we are, and this is not a big deal. We're not gonna announce Lindsay as a speaker. We're not gonna do all these things. And I'm sitting there, I'm like, this is so cool. This is such a big deal. And I got, like, another wave of what I've experienced in our time of shared leadership. There's so often Evan will say something from the platform that I go. I would never say that. I'm so glad Evan and I do this together. And you said so many. Everything from the joke, the Destiny's Child joke to your perspective on community. I was like, lindsay does this and says things in so many ways that I would never. And of course, I would never. And what a relief to not have to try for Ben to be a combination of Lindsay and Evan and then every preacher I've ever loved before. You know, like, it's such a great spot and what a great addition that preaching brought. Not just that series, but, you know, many more times in the future, Lindsay, you're gonna get booked pretty fast again. I have a feeling a few times over. [00:33:45] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. [00:33:46] Speaker B: I'm also proud of our church. I think in years or decades past, anytime a woman would be preaching on a Sunday, we would hear you. And I, Ben, would hear backlash or you would be confronted with backlash. [00:34:00] Speaker C: I was prepared. I was prepared for it. [00:34:02] Speaker B: I didn't receive any. Zero. And I think that's a reflection of where we are as a church and just the maturing of where we're at as church. So speaking to that, being proud of our church, and it shouldn't be a thing. We shouldn't have to be like, I'm so proud that they didn't. But it is yell and critique because a woman was preaching. But that is very real in so many churches. [00:34:25] Speaker C: Yes, it is. [00:34:27] Speaker B: And so. And I wasn't even bracing for it because I feel like we've come so far as a church, but it just confirmed it. Zero. No emails, no comments, Anything but positive. [00:34:38] Speaker A: I got a lot more. Why haven't you guys let her speak before? [00:34:42] Speaker B: Correct. [00:34:42] Speaker A: That was the critique I got. [00:34:44] Speaker C: They assume you've been holding me back. They do. I'm like, oh, God, please don't ask me to speak. Please help. [00:34:51] Speaker A: Until that meeting we had, like, six months ago, I feel like you were like, we really need a woman up on the stage. And I was like, oh, I know one. I think she'd be great. So funny. It was really great. [00:35:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Great job, Lindsay. [00:35:04] Speaker C: Thank you, guys. [00:35:05] Speaker B: And then, Ben, you shared a really memorable metaphor the next week about the foot washing. I think I heard about that. I wasn't there on that week either, and I heard about that before I got back. Just this idea. You were at a wedding. [00:35:18] Speaker A: I left that one feeling like there was a lot more that could have been said that would have been good. I kind of want another shot at that one. But starting with the premise, the metaphor of, yeah, I was at a wedding. A lot of people do foot washing now as a part of the ceremony, which is great. And by the way, I do want to make it clear. I don't want to disparage that as a piece of the wedding. That's not what I was saying. But a groom washing a bride's feet at a wedding, in a Western wedding, her feet are so clean already. They've never been cleaner. The nails are perfect, you know, and the same with the guy, right? Like, those feet are clean. And the church can so easily fall in the trap of, like, this ceremonial love and care that ends up being. Words, ceremony and symbolism are super important. We don't throw those things away. But they have to be the beginning of something bigger and greater and deeper. And that is the opportunity to really wash the dirt off of the people around us and community that we are trying to care for. And that takes a certain level of guts and willingness and money and resources to really do it. To really wash the feet, you gotta dedicate somebody to it. Jesus apparently dedicated an evening to it of wrapping the towel around his waist and 12 disciples. You guys, 24ft, man. That's a lot of nasty feet. And, yeah, that was kind of the gist of it. That was. We have to. It was a little bit more of a warning than I thought it was going to be of. Like, we could be a church that really exists in ceremony and symbolism, and it will not wash a single ounce of dirt off of the folks around us. And that's a scary place to be. [00:36:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And if we're not saying yes to that outward mission of Christ that we're called to be a part of. I spent a lot of time this weekend talking about this. Then we have this kind of ingrown, individualized consumer, what can I get out of Jesus for myself? Approach and misses the whole point, you know? And so we're invited, right, to wash the feet that aren't clean. We're invited to be sent out as Jesus said to his disciples. As the Father sent me, I send you. It's a great commission. And it's the early church moving out across the world to fulfill that great commission and to be witnesses in Jerusalem and Judea and the ends of the earth. It's all these things that if we excise that from our Christian faith, all we have is like this yucky, me focused refusal to let anyone else in on the good thing I got. And I think it's just wholesale. Should be rejected. Yeah. You know? Yeah, man. [00:38:02] Speaker A: And even as I was saying it, I was so challenged by it because, gosh, do we like to wash feet that are already clean. It just. It's so nice. It fits into the schedule really well. It's really predictable. And you know, we talked about we don't be self congratulatory, but I was again proud of our church. The other day. You and I had a meeting that was kind of businessy with somebody in the community. And at the end they wrapped up just being nice and saying, what are you guys working on? And I was like. I kind of stared at them for a moment. And you were like, well, we're doing the safe parking thing. There's three units out there for. And I was like, I love it. That was our response. [00:38:36] Speaker B: I'm so glad. [00:38:38] Speaker A: I'm so happy that that's. That's where we've been putting a ton of our energy recently. And partnering with somebody in the community and then doing something that feels like watching real feet with real dirt. And that is, I believe, where we're at. We gotta continue to hold ourselves that line. And that takes a lot of work. But what a good feeling to have that that really is who our church has become and will continue to be. [00:39:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. Next, we're moving into a series. We got the idea from Rich Velodis out in New York City. And we're kind of. We're not using his content, but we're piggybacking on the idea and we're back to school season. So we're going to do a Sunday school series. And this will be fun because we can revisit some of those classic, especially Old Testament, you know, David and Goliath and what are some of the other ones we're doing in this? [00:39:28] Speaker A: Daniel. Lion's den. [00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:30] Speaker C: Rahab. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Widow's oil with Elisha and. [00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:36] Speaker A: Noah's Ark. Are we doing Noah's Ark? [00:39:38] Speaker B: I can't remember where we landed. [00:39:40] Speaker A: That one was. [00:39:40] Speaker C: I don't remember. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Anyway. [00:39:42] Speaker C: I don't remember. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fun. It's just a fun. Like I said, we do this all the time. And this actually feels like we're running to a different camera on the set of the same movie and looking at things through another different perspective. And it's fun. It's exciting. [00:39:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And helping people to not feel like they just kind of have to throw out the Old Testament because it's. There's problematic views in there. Whether that's the genocide of Joshua taking over Canaan or it is Noah's Ark and the wiping out of all humanity. All these things. I think with a humble and hopefully insightful approach to these stories, we can find real good stuff and not Just have to say, ah, let's ignore that, because that is crazy. [00:40:32] Speaker A: And humility is really how you have to approach it. Right. And I think we'll have that mixed bag again. Right. Of challenge. You'll have some people that are going to be challenged to be humble in the middle of it because we have this concrete idea of what these stories are and where they belong. And I think a more honest reading of it doesn't dumb down the power of it or creating an opportunity for understanding God, but it might mess with your preconceived notions about how it is. And then you have the other side of that aisle that's like, we're going to say, open up. We're going to do Daniel the lion's Den or Noah's Ark. And they're going to be like, please don't make me believe that every animal came by twos and got on that thing. Like, please don't make me do it. I can't do it. I won't go back. Both people are going to be sitting in the seats, I would imagine. And that'll be part of the fun of the challenge. [00:41:21] Speaker B: And I hope that the church can hear this, that the best reading in the Old Testament is where you get to the end of it. And you're saying, we need Jesus. We need Jesus because without. Without a new covenant, we can't do this. And I think when you try to put the weight of what Jesus has done in the new covenant on the old covenant, that's where you get so much dissonance. And so let's look for where Jesus signs point to Jesus in the Old Testament. But it is so clear that if this is all there is, we're gonna miss God by a mile. [00:41:59] Speaker A: You should say that. Are you gonna say that? [00:42:01] Speaker B: We just recorded it so I can take it and quote myself. Put it up in green on your notes. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Is this exciting to you, Lindsay? [00:42:10] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:42:11] Speaker A: Pretty into the idea. [00:42:12] Speaker C: I love it. I think it's great. I grew up with a fairly literal understanding of a lot of these stories. And I just think it's never bad to examine the way we're reading scripture and run it through some filters and talk about it in community and make sure, you know, like, to be more fluid with it is, I think, important with the way we are holding it, not with what scripture is. I think that's really important. So, yeah, I'm super excited. And we are doing Noah's Ark. [00:42:43] Speaker A: We are. [00:42:45] Speaker C: I just looked. Yes. [00:42:46] Speaker A: That's great. [00:42:47] Speaker B: Okay. So I think we should continue doing episodes through this series if we can. [00:42:52] Speaker C: That's the plan. [00:42:52] Speaker B: Great. Did we get a felt board? [00:42:54] Speaker C: We got a felt board. It's not called that. What's it called? [00:42:58] Speaker B: It's called a flannel graph. Flannel graph or a flannelgram. Flannel. Flannel graph. [00:43:04] Speaker C: Flannel graph. [00:43:04] Speaker A: That's definitely right. Why am I saying fillboard? [00:43:07] Speaker C: I said felt board. [00:43:08] Speaker B: It's felt. I mean, it is felt. [00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:09] Speaker C: On a board. [00:43:10] Speaker A: But flannel graph is what I grew up saying or knowing. [00:43:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Puppet shows. [00:43:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:18] Speaker C: No. [00:43:19] Speaker A: What was your church called? What was it? What was your kids church called? Ours was Power Church. [00:43:25] Speaker C: Oh, that was your kids church. [00:43:27] Speaker A: That was the kids. [00:43:27] Speaker C: Not the name of your church. [00:43:28] Speaker A: That was the kids ministry. [00:43:30] Speaker C: I think ours is just children's church. [00:43:33] Speaker B: It was children's church. And then another church I was at was Kids. Really boring stuff. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Wow. You guys. [00:43:37] Speaker B: Youth groups, though. We had Revival Town with an E at the end because of Delirious, the band. So Townie. [00:43:45] Speaker A: Still love Delirious, man. Yeah, those guys are still with me. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Martin Smith, he's. He's an older gentleman now, and I think he's a real deal. I do. I like Martin. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's great. That's good. [00:43:57] Speaker B: And then we had Evolution. Okay. With the tagline. With the tagline. He's changing everything. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Nice. Was it revolution? Because love is spelled backwards right in Revolution. Did you highlight? [00:44:10] Speaker B: No, we never thought that far. [00:44:13] Speaker C: I thought you said evolution. [00:44:14] Speaker B: No, it's evolution. [00:44:15] Speaker C: Oh, Evie, I thought you said Revel. Revolution. [00:44:19] Speaker B: No, Evolution. Like he's changing everything. We're evolving. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh, yours was Evolution. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Evolution. [00:44:23] Speaker A: I mean, love is still in there. [00:44:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:25] Speaker A: But I thought you said Revolution. I'm sorry. [00:44:27] Speaker B: No, my bad. [00:44:29] Speaker A: Okay. 180. [00:44:31] Speaker B: Classically classic. [00:44:32] Speaker A: Everyone was a part of a 180. [00:44:33] Speaker C: At which I read as 090 for a long time. What a branding miss. Yes. The spelling was so weird. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Oh, 90. Yeah. Out of tul. Tulsa, Oklahoma. We were a franchise here for a lot of years. [00:44:48] Speaker A: Yeah, it was a franchise. Right. 180 was like. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Paid a big fee to, like, use their branding. Yeah. I think they are. Originally was like an ongoing, like, licensing fee, but that went away pretty quick. [00:44:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that would. The Klamath Youth group that I was at at Klamath Christian center was a 180 also and was changing right around the time that I got in there. Just KCC Youth. I think after a little while. [00:45:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm proud to say I. I switched it from 180 to Westside youth. You did? In my time, yes. We had a. So stupid. We had a little drone with a string attached to it, and we had replaced. We had this lit signboard that's still down there. And we'd replaced the 180 with Westside Youth and then covered it with a cloth and a string with a remote control drone and did this big, like. And now the big reveal. [00:45:38] Speaker A: You did. [00:45:38] Speaker B: And this little. This little RC drone. This is early days. So the drone wasn't great. It, like, gently tugged on the string, and then the most anticlimactic experience, the cloth falls. And it's like west side used. And the kids are like, okay. Is that it? [00:45:54] Speaker A: I'm a little surprised they weren't jazzed. [00:45:56] Speaker B: That was a generation. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Were you there, Lindsay? [00:45:59] Speaker C: I don't remember that. [00:46:00] Speaker B: You would remember. Or not. It was so stupid. [00:46:04] Speaker A: That's crazy, man. It was. I love that board down there. [00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah. The marquee. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Cool. The marquee's great. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Yeah. It used to be fully neon all the way around it. Everything was neon. Like a true. You know, like. Like outdoor marquee, but that got broken out by. By stray balls. Yeah. Years and years. [00:46:24] Speaker A: That's a cool thing, though. [00:46:25] Speaker B: It is. [00:46:25] Speaker A: That was really cool. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. [00:46:28] Speaker A: Branding of youth groups. [00:46:30] Speaker B: Good stuff. All right. Good conversation today. We'll be back. I think maybe after next week, we'll start the Sunday school series. Yeah. [00:46:39] Speaker C: Week after next week. [00:46:40] Speaker B: Do that. A lot of good content there. Yeah. [00:46:41] Speaker A: It's not this to explore. [00:46:43] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Mike Meeks is going to be back preaching this weekend. Looking forward to him. He's a funny guy and a good friend. [00:46:50] Speaker A: Wild and crazy guy. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Thanks for tuning in to behind the Message. And special thanks to Justin McMahon, who's switching and running our tech today, Lindsey Parnell, for producing. [00:47:03] Speaker A: No podcast next week. [00:47:05] Speaker C: No podcast next week. [00:47:06] Speaker A: We could do, like, a special edition, maybe do the top worst songs. Oh, yeah, we could revisit that. [00:47:12] Speaker B: One of our first episodes ever. Do a revisit. All right, see you soon.