Good Friday

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the Message. In this podcast we take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Evan Earwicker and we're here for a special Holy Week episode of behind the Message. And before we get into talking about Good Friday specifically, I noticed you're drinking out of a Christmas mug. Are you having a hot cocoa today, Ben? [00:00:31] Speaker A: I just like the shape of it, you know. Yeah, yeah. I would have a hot cocoa though. [00:00:35] Speaker B: That shape looks terrible. Is that chips on the top? Is it all chips? [00:00:38] Speaker A: It's definitely chipped on the top. Yeah. For the viewer on YouTube right there. [00:00:42] Speaker B: That'S a garbage mug. I would never put up with that. I'm very specific on Dream from the other side. [00:00:47] Speaker A: The chips bother you? You wouldn't use a. [00:00:50] Speaker B: No. [00:00:50] Speaker A: Like what if they're not like sharp? [00:00:53] Speaker B: They're. [00:00:53] Speaker A: They're not sharp. Do you wonder what's in them? [00:00:56] Speaker B: I don't know. The lip at the top coming out. I just, I can't do it. [00:01:02] Speaker A: You're right. That's not ideal. The diner mug. As you have the scissors coffee diner mug, this is the ideal mug. [00:01:07] Speaker B: This is a nice mug. It's a little heavy for me though. Like the thickness of the wall. I like a. What is it? It's like a ceramic but a little thinner. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:01:16] Speaker B: A little curve to it. [00:01:18] Speaker A: I like that thickness. Heavy mug. That's what I want, a heavy, heavy mug. Heavy pants. [00:01:24] Speaker B: But you sacrifice volume for it though. [00:01:25] Speaker A: I do. [00:01:26] Speaker B: I know you give up a lot of space. [00:01:28] Speaker A: I think 40% of my coffee drinking experience is how I get to hold it though. [00:01:33] Speaker B: That's true. [00:01:33] Speaker A: You know, I like 8 ounce cups. Cause you can hold it between your thumb and your pinky like a paper cup. And then I like hold that mug. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Show me how you hold your mug. [00:01:42] Speaker A: Like this. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Okay. So you're a finger under the handle. I'm grabbing the whole cup if I can. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Oh, are you? [00:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And then two handed. If you're watching on the video, you can see it lends itself. Well if it's cold. Cause you can hold it with both hands. Yes. Yeah. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Do you get it up to your nose? A little steam on your nose. [00:02:02] Speaker B: No, that's weird. [00:02:04] Speaker A: Oh, I've gone too far. It's me, I've gone too far. I do love a good mug though. It is the right weight. Yeah, yeah. Regardless of how heavy or light you like it. When you feel the right way. Oh, what an experience. [00:02:17] Speaker B: All the diners in town, speaking of Diner mugs have slowly been going out. Just a feature of the economy probably. But I know like my dad's kind of demographic, my father in law, you know, that's the thing they would do is go to diners for breakfast with their friends. And now they're getting run out of all these places because they're, you know, going under. Were you a diner guy ever? [00:02:42] Speaker A: I mean, I like the idea. Breakfast for sure. I've got some core memories. Heavily involved with breakfast with my grandpa, my mom's dad, who would take me out for breakfast whenever I'd see him. And then he'd go take me shopping to buy baseball hat or whatever, something like that. And yeah, like he would call them hotcakes and links. We're gonna go out for some hotcakes and links. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:06] Speaker A: And it was always in a diner or some kind of little Beaverton spot. Yeah. So, yeah, diners. And then I thought Denny's was pretty cool after I got my driver's license, as one does, especially in the small. [00:03:21] Speaker B: Town southern Oregon, Denny's was the first to go here. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Really? [00:03:25] Speaker B: So you had Denny's and then IHOP went out recently. You heard about that. Someone unfortunately drove their truck into the sign of the IHOP and it knocked the sign over, but they were about to go under anyway, so they didn't fix it. And then like two weeks later they announced they were closing down. And so the sign just stayed there, broken. And it was like the saddest statement about the state of IHOP in our town. IHOP went out. Sherry's went out with huge debts, like 800,000 in owed. Sherry's is out back payments. Yeah, I didn't know that. All over the Northwest they're out. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Okay. That's crazy. Sherry's pie. So when you were in Glendale, like I was 25 minutes from the nearest big city, which was Grants Pass. Those were finger quotes for the listener. That was the thing you did. We either drove to Wolf Creek, which was an even smaller town but had a 24 hour gas station. We get energy drinks and beef jerky. Or you continue on to Grants Pass and you get pie from Sherry's. And that was kind of the Glendale kid circuit. And if you were wealthy, you got Dutch Bros on the way out too. That was part of the idea. If you were one of the wealthy. [00:04:36] Speaker B: Kids, you have to counteract the sleepiness of the pie with an energy drink. Or a Dutch Bros. Right. [00:04:42] Speaker A: A big strawberry rhubarb deserves an annihilator from Dutch Bros. For sure. [00:04:47] Speaker B: We were Talking about it this morning. Everyone's old when they're in high school. You know, your Dutch Bros Drink of choice and these sugary things. And they would serve them in a paper cup, which again, comes full circle. Cold drinks, hot drinks, all out of a paper cup. Who drinks a cold drink out of a paper cup? [00:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah, the cup's just slowly kind of melting into itself. Right. As you go on softening. And that was a great part of the experience too. Speaking of the ASMR of it all, Lindsey, did you have a Dutch Bros. Drink? Were you. [00:05:17] Speaker C: We didn't have a Dutch Bros. In Albuquerque. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Oh, Albuquerque. [00:05:20] Speaker B: That's a northwest brand. Yeah. [00:05:23] Speaker C: But I enjoyed. And the occasional Starbucks. [00:05:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:26] Speaker C: As a senior in high school of 16 ounce. Or a. What is it? It's not a tall. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Tall's the small. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Grande. [00:05:33] Speaker C: Grande. Thank you. Vanilla latte with two sweet and loaves. You guys. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Sick. [00:05:39] Speaker C: It's like, I don't like coffee, clearly. But I want to be a part of this culture, so I'm gonna. [00:05:46] Speaker A: You wanna hold the cup? [00:05:47] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanna hold the cup. [00:05:48] Speaker A: I don't know. You didn't go like big frappe kind of a thing, though. [00:05:52] Speaker C: I think those are too expensive. Although, God, who knows? Maybe it was the same after it was all said and done, but I wanted the. You know. Yeah. Just want to be part of the culture. Yeah. The vibe. [00:06:02] Speaker A: High school college was like giant freezes of. At Dutch Bros. It was a freeze or a frappe blended. Which I will admit, for a drink, still very tasty. For two. Instant death. Too much sugar and cream. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Oh, but those are the days. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Those were the days. [00:06:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, all of us over 40, we can't be drinking those drinks every day anymore. [00:06:26] Speaker A: No. But a lot of caffeine on Holy Week. Right. This is a busy one for us. Here we go. [00:06:31] Speaker B: It's true. Holy Week's a big deal for obviously Christians everywhere here in leadership, in church, of course, we're looking at. We do Stations of the Cross, Good Friday service. Always very meaningful. And then Easter Sunday, which is a big deal. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Let me ask you guys a question a little bit more personally. You guys have been following Jesus for a while. Been in church, working for a church for a long time. We've done this several times. Right. The story could very easily fade or become maybe feels like it would be less important or at least less shocking or impressive. And like you said, we do Stations of the Cross and we have all these services and we kind of know what Good Friday is going to. And Supposed to feel like, and we know what Easter Sunday is going to and supposed to feel like. Do you ever find yourself needing to be like, I gotta get excited about this story again, or, I need to feel this way or think this way or get myself into this mood? Is that part of the process of Holy Week for you? [00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I know for the last few years, you gotta kinda come to grips with seasons of life where you don't have to rely on, like, emotional elevation to feel like something matters. And I think that's maturity. Like, maturing in faith is to realize, like, yeah, when you're first starting out, there's a certain infatuation or emotional response to everything. That's really a gift, I think. And then as we mature in our faith, I do think it's actually a sign of depth. I hope to be able to say, I don't necessarily emotionally just feel all the feels, and yet I know something is true and real and I can participate in it. And then that's probably where I'm at is today. I'm not giddy about the fact that Easter is coming. Probably emotionally less heightened about Easter than maybe when I was 21. But I think that comes with life. And hopefully that doesn't come with the sense of, I'm jaded now or I'm cynical or I'm numb to all this. I don't think that's it. What about you? [00:08:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm with you. I think there was a time where I felt the need of. I've been through the rhythm and the rotation of this enough where I'm a little. I don't know, not impressed, I guess. And, yeah, I need to talk myself back into that. I think I'm finding the beauty along the way in all of it. And it. Yeah, it doesn't come with these huge spikes of emotion or anything like that. It comes with this really sweet, like, knowing. And you and I talked about this with Lindsay and Brandt, or with Brandt. Lindsay wasn't there yesterday. We talked about this. For some reason, it doesn't feel like Easter has to be this huge, ginormous party at the end of a certain season anymore. And as I read scripture, certainly there must have been great celebrating when Jesus returned and the disciples saw him and all that. But a lot of stories that we get are like a walk and then a breakfast on the beach. And actually, right now, in this season of life, for me, what Easter feels like is this really refreshing, hopeful. You can almost hear the water lapping up on the Shore during breakfast at the beach. Kind of an experience with Jesus, like this sweet, gentle confidence that is very. Certainly, there's celebration in the middle of that, but it doesn't necessarily feel like a party with confetti, I guess, is how I feel. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And for each of the disciples in the narrative, a lot of confusion. They're terrified. It says Thomas is doubting. The disciples on the road to Emmaus are unaware and then overwhelmed. But it's all very confusing. They've all walked through intense crisis and trauma, you know, through Jesus arrest and then his crucifixion. And so to process all that, this is not a homecoming parade after Jesus is resurrected. For the disciples, they are just. Their minds are swirling about what all of this means, you know, and for Easter Sunday for us, I think there's a pressure to make it feel like a dance party, which for good reason. We're celebrating resurrection and life over death. And I think we also have to create room for there to be a sense of, I don't know, bringing our whole selves and wrestling in real time with people who are saying, what does this mean, if I really believe this, that life triumphs over death, that there's hope? When I thought there was nothing left for me, that isn't always one response. That isn't always just dancing up and down and laughing together. Maybe that is it. But also, I think it's deep relief, or it can be a lot of different things. And so I hope we create room for that in our practice of going through Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and Easter Sunday. This is something that we have to have hit us a little bit less than just manufacturing a hypey moment. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I guess if I could sum it up, it's this confidence of almost Jesus putting his arm around us and saying, hey, we're going to make it. We're going to do this. And it's as simple as that. This quiet confidence that there's so much ahead and so many unknowns and we're going to make it. And I don't know if there's anything, again, maybe the season of my life that's better than that for me right now, that does almost make me emotional or make me have some kind of bravery and courage that I don't know that I've had otherwise. And that's the cool part of the season for me. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And to find ourselves in these gospel stories and trying to say, what would that feel like for him to say it's going to be okay for him to walk in the room and if you remember, I think it's in Luke where he appears in the room where the disciples are gathering. And I'm sure they're talking like, what is going on? Is it true? Is it not true? Is he alive? Is he dead? And then he appears among them. And the first thing he says, be afraid. And he says, receive the Holy Spirit. And it's these tones that happen after the resurrection that tell us it's okay to not understand all of what is happening and yet to receive something from Jesus that looks like peace, banishing our fear and receiving the Holy Spirit. Those are the gifts that the resurrection provides. And if we reduce it down to just like. Are you guys pumped Jesus is here? I think we missed the real gift. [00:13:21] Speaker A: You just spoiled how Lynn's gonna start the Easter service on Sunday. Are you guys pumped? Was her first line. I think it's in planning center right now. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Air horns. Yeah. If you're listening out there, you work at a church and you're considering air horns, don't. [00:13:39] Speaker A: Have you done it? No. Okay, good. Yeah. Drew the line there. Beach balls were part of it. Yeah, I think we talked about that. But not air horns. [00:13:47] Speaker B: No. [00:13:48] Speaker A: When you consider the story of some of these disciples, and we talked about Peter and his denial of ever knowing Jesus this last week, what you're talking about, these simple, do not be afraid. Receive the Holy Spirit. Let's move forward with courage. Those people, I'm sure everyone but the Peters of the world, who we know for sure, have gone through such trauma and fear. What an incredible moment to sit and be welcomed back in. I'm not back in because I don't think Jesus ever sent any of them out, but to have that confidence that they're with Jesus, that he still loves them, that this hasn't gone anywhere. That's my greatest hope for the church, is that those who feel on that outside or margined or marginalized or maybe not quite what they once were, not quite what they hope to be. I hope people can find that moment for them. And I just. I don't know. I feel like that rarely comes in that big celebration kind of experience. And it comes with that gentleness of an arm around the shoulder. And I think people are going to experience that here this Easter. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And to. To move through Jesus death as a congregation now is to remember that we will get to points that feel like, oh, this is it. This is the end. We're hopeless. There's no way out of this. And the promise of Jesus is death doesn't win. When it seems like we're out and done. It's not because there's redemption and hope and resurrection. And then we're set. Like, the disciples are on a course that isn't free of trouble and pain. Like, most of these guys are going to go to their death in a few short years for the sake of their belief in Jesus. So even after the resurrection, he doesn't promise, like, and now everything's going to be really pleasant for the rest of your lives. That's not true. And yet there is this overriding confidence that, like Keanu, Monte Cristo, remember that movie where he's like, in the toast, he's like, do your worst or whatever. There's a sense of do your worst. Because we've seen that life wins and Christ has risen. And so whatever we face now, it doesn't have that sense of terminal despair because Christ has risen. And so all of these things have to, I think, show up in our approach and our processing of what the resurrection means. It's not denialism, right. It's not like, ah, we're going to close our eyes to all the hard parts of life or the terrors of the world. No. It's looking at those full in the face and say, do your worst. Christ is risen. Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: You have a take on this, Lindsay. [00:16:42] Speaker C: I agree. I agree with all that is being said. And as you guys are talking, I'm thinking about what it would feel like to have a very dear friend die and then come back to life. Like, if you put yourself in that situation, like actually imagine it, go there, like, feel the grief you would feel, and then allow yourself to walk through what that would be like. You know, of course we're limited because that's not the normal experience for the average Joe. But to encounter Jesus after watching him die, holy smokes, like, that's a game changer. And even thinking on that now, it changes the way I view Christ. It changes the way I view Easter, it changes the way I view my faith. To meditate on that as a real thing that happened and to kind of put yourself in the disciples shoes, I think can be really impactful moving forward. [00:17:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. [00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And after the resurrection, they've watched their friend die, their leader, their rabbi, and then when he appears to them, clearly he's changed, he's different. Because, you know, whether it be on the beach where the disciples say, or the accountant John says, and they didn't ask him, but they knew it was him. Well, it wouldn't say that unless there was something about him that caused them maybe to at first wonder or wrote to Emmaus. They don't recognize him. Mary at the grave thinks he's the gardener. So there's something about Jesus in this post resurrection way that is familiar, yet unfamiliar. And you talked about this last week. I thought you pulled a brilliant quote out about on Palm Sunday. I think Philotas talked about the rich. Philotas talked about how we want Jesus to do things in the way that we've known them to be done, and we want that familiarity. And yet Jesus continually comes in something that is familiar, yet not. It's something new. What does that speak to as far as our experience in faith and how we kind of want Jesus to do something maybe that worked before or that we're familiar with, and yet he comes and does something new. [00:19:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I love. I mean, first of all, the. The fallibility of humanity on Palm Sunday and even the fact that people are coming and they're waving these palm branches at Jesus is a lot of a tip of the cap to a leader named Judas from 150 years back that saved the Jewish people from their oppressors. And so there is this, like, I think what Rich Velota said was save us, but in a way that we are familiar with, we do. We are very rarely interested in allowing Jesus to not only have our lives, but then to do what he would want with them. And that's where Jesus is trying to. It's where his whole story and leadership of the disciples really comes to this moment where he looks at Peter and says, and I'm going to die. This is how it's going to go. It's everything to do to stop this. No, we've got to be a part of resistance and we've got to lead it in a different way because we've seen this done before. Jesus, let me, Peter, help you understand how this goes now. And it doesn't end up with you dying at the hands of the Roman government. It ends up with you wielding a sword and leading an army. And it's just so interesting how we always have to continue to shave off this bit of us of, yes, I'm giving everything that I have to Jesus and then I'm trusting him to do this exactly how I hoped he would. And Easter is not that I've said a lot, really, with humor or an attempt to humor on Sundays. Like, there's so many ways that Jesus has done things that I would not have done it. The inefficiency of rising from the dead and then going on walks and having breakfast at the beach is ridiculous. Show up at the temple, show up in the middle of the city, grab a megaphone, grab a microphone, proclaim your greatness and your resurrection to the whole world around you. And yet he doesn't do so. And so I forget the original question that you asked, but that is such a big part of the Easter experience for us that we have to remember that celebrating the resurrection of Jesus is also another invitation to actually give ourselves over to him, to do what he would want with our lives. [00:21:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that surrendering piece is how we follow him through Passion Week, right? Because he, in the story at the Last Supper, he's washing his disciples feet, he's using all this language, talking about pouring out his life and his death. And then he goes to the garden and it's this, not my will be done, but yours. He's poured out like a drink offering. He's in anguish. And then through what we're celebrating now, Good Friday heads to the cross. And it's just the quintessential display of selflessness and emptying all of yourself for the sake of others. And of course, this is the bedrock of Christian faith, right? In practice is how do we follow Jesus into this cross shaped life, this cruciform life, in a way that also costs us so much to do that. And yet to think that we can still hold on to like, and I'm also going to do this my way, it doesn't work. Right? And I think that's what we face on Good Friday is realizing that we're going to have to collide with this. The cross and us are going to have to collide if we want to follow Jesus. There's no other way. And what happens there at the cross will determine everything. [00:22:50] Speaker A: You and I have gotten a lot out of starting a Good Friday service over the last few years here we make the comment at the end of every one like, wow, that was really good. Or even like, we're kind of good at this, at walking into this moment, specifically on Good Friday. What has that service, you think done for us as a church and for you personally? [00:23:13] Speaker B: For me, it has reminded us year after year now that we don't get to Easter Sunday without the cross. Right? And so these pieces of sacrifice and sorrow and death are the path that we take if we follow Jesus towards resurrection. And it doesn't discount the power and the joy of resurrection. It enhances it, it deepens it. It's this mystery, right through death and letting go, we can receive and take on the life that comes on the other side of it. And so to walk the church through that with our Good Friday service, I think points to that over and over again. And it also is an opportunity to challenge some, I think, misconceptions about the nature of the cross. And specifically this idea of an angry, bloodthirsty God taking out all of his rage on Jesus instead to help point again and again for the church and to the church on these nights that Good Friday does not represent, you know, angry sword wielding God, just fed up. It represents a God so full of love that he'd stop at nothing to absorb all of the violence and the sin and the darkness of the world so that he can be made right with those he loves. And Jesus is the picture of God. Right. He says this right before he goes to the cross. He says, if you've seen me, Philip, you've seen the Father. And then he goes to the cross. And so if you take that truth all the way to him on the cross, we don't have an angry God taking his vengeance out on Jesus. We have Jesus showing us what God does, which is entering into sacrifice for the sake of us, and who are we that he would do this. And so breaking down some of those misconceptions and to help us enter into Easter Sunday with this idea of a loving God rather than an angry God, I think is one of the jobs we have on a Good Friday. [00:25:17] Speaker A: We have really liked that angry God thing though. And that's done what created a lot of success for the church through fear mongering about who God would be. And it's such an interesting thing that we've glommed onto in a way to hold on to that fear motivation in order to modify behavior, I guess is the best excuse that I can come up with it. Because as you said, Jesus says it, going up to the cross, I am the image of this invisible God. I am God and to love and to care for us in such a way that totally changed that whole dynamic as you just described. [00:25:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think there's some undoing baked into our history, whether it be Puritans as the original colonies led by a very pretty harsh religious understanding of God. And then you fast forward into Great Awakening and Jonathan Edwards, famously, sinners in the hands of an angry God. And people are climbing up on their chairs afraid that they're going to fall into hell because God's so mad. This is kind of, as Americans, this is baked into our origins of Christianity in our country. And so, and there's Obviously, it's not all bad. There's good and bad. But I think there is a general bent towards this idea that God's mad at me. And just to help people understand that the bent of the Gospels is Jesus displaying the perfect love of God poured out, hopefully as a relief. I hope people, even Sunday will come in. And I feel such a relief that maybe God's not mad at them and maybe all this is about God getting to them and finding them where they're at. Brian Zahn has a great quote I quoted this last year. But the crucifixion is not the ultimate attempt to change God's mind about us. The cross is the ultimate attempt to change our mind about God. God is not like Caiaphas seeking a sacrifice. God is not like Pilate requiring an execution. God is like Jesus, absorbing sin and forgiving sinners. And if I can pray any prayer for our church, where they would catch through Good Friday and Easter Sunday is that that God is like Jesus and look at what he's done. And he finds us. He finds us on the other side. He finds us on the beach. He finds us on the road to Emmaus. [00:27:44] Speaker A: You know, that's really good. What a worthy goal for your message on Easter. That's great. The. The bit of Good Friday that I have come to love is the elements of silence. We quietly leave the worship center at the end of the service. There's moments of meditation and maybe not total silence, but real quiet. We're not rushing through a service in which we have everything timed out very specifically. There's something about the Saturday feeling of all the crowds have gone, the violence is over, and it's so terribly awkward in that in between time. I can recall a few times, like, leaving the fair, the county fair, really late at night after it was pretty much closed. And all of a sudden you look at this thing that was all lit up and full of activity and people buzzing around and all the noise, and it's quiet. It almost creates this sense of unease in this place that I felt very safe at for the last several hours. All of a sudden, I wonder about that. And I think it's this way with our faith. There's an expression of our faith in here of we almost don't know what to do with our hands during Saturday, during the real quiet, if we allow ourselves to enter into the story that way. It is an awkward Saturday in which we say, I'm not sure I have enough faith, or I know what's going to happen, or I'm not totally confident that actually Sunday is going to come and it will be the moment that I always thought it would be. We believe this in the story of Jesus, but we don't always believe it for the thing in ourselves. And sometimes Saturday lasts for decades in our lives. Right. Where we just don't know if anything's actually in there in the first place, in that tomb, about to come back to life. And practicing that with people is so important. [00:29:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think about on Saturday, the disciples are evidently making plans or going to head home. Right. They've come to Jerusalem for Passover and this festival, and it's very festive and pilgrims are coming from everywhere and all this. And then it goes so badly. And think about, like, that roller coaster from coming into Hosanna with Jesus into the city, and then through the weekend, just how devastated they are. And they're going home. And Jesus, his body is going to stay here in Jerusalem, in the city, and they're going to go home without him. Like the depths of sadness there on Saturday. And then for Jesus, the first thing he says to the women is, I'm going to meet them there, back home, like go to Galilee. I'm going to meet them there where we were always together. There's just such a kindness in what Jesus is offering them, which is to meet up in that place where things feel right again. And I don't know, Jerusalem represented, like, the big stage and the big temple and all the stuff. And in the middle of their grief and trauma and all this, Jesus offers them the chance to, like, let's go back home and I'm going to talk to you there. And there's just such kindness in that for this story and all these things. When you slowly start unpeeling these little details in the narrative, you just realize how human this experience was. And yet this crazy miracle happens, and it invades the ordinary. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Yeah. The little detail of Joseph Arimathea taking Jesus off the cross and walking however far to the tomb. The human reality of Joseph is potentially wrestling with one of two ideas or both. I'm carrying God right now, a lifeless God, or I'm carrying the body of someone that clearly is not God. And how much brain space that would occupy during this walk of. And then just even the physical, the practicality of it. Joseph probably got tired on the walk. What do you do? You sit down and you got Jesus leaning on you. Like, this is such a rotten, raw, messy, dirty, funky, weird, beautiful experience that Joseph is having to walk through, to carry his hopes and dreams, essentially, because it says that he was a follower of Jesus. He had invested so much into this man being the Messiah. And to actually be carrying his body and asking the questions all at the same time is a fascinating thing that I actually think is more relatable to all of us than we'd like to believe. The amount of time we have to carry around our dead hopes and dreams is a lot. We do that a lot as a part of the human experience. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The disciples in Luke 24 say, we had hoped he was the one. And so there's just this reality sinks in, like, I guess it wasn't. I love that picture of Joseph carrying the body of Christ as his hopes and dreams and. And having to say goodbye to that. And. Yeah, what a mystery to have a faith that believes life conquers death, and yet still, as part of that process, says yes to the death happening and saying goodbye to things, you know, because I think that is the way that redemption hits us. It gets to us. Life gets to us, is that we have to say goodbye on that Saturday, you know, and if you just say, I think Sunday's coming, so I'm gonna close my eyes and wait this out, I don't know. I don't think that's how it works. I think we have to be the disciples realizing, like, oh, my hope is dead and gone. That thing is not gonna work out. And then we enter into Sunday, and I don't want to skip over it, you know? [00:33:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That quiet, sitting around together talking and sharing stories about Jesus. And then I imagine a disciple taking a big, deep breath and going, well, I guess he wasn't. And we thought he was. So what now? I love that, what you talked about. Well, do we go home now? We came all the way to Jerusalem. What happens next? The little logistics, the real life that is coming into play in the middle of losing hope is, yeah, wow. [00:34:05] Speaker B: And think about it like they're walking. They would have been walking the road to Galilee with thousands of other people also leaving the city after the festival is over. And they would have been known not because only they were with Jesus in Jerusalem, but because they were probably walking towards Galilee with Galileans who knew them. And that awkwardness is there too. [00:34:27] Speaker A: Right? [00:34:28] Speaker B: And I don't know, it sounds like many of them were still in the city, but you wonder, like, are they gearing up mentally? Like, now we gotta walk back to Galilee with all of our high school friends for sure. And they saw all this go down. It's dangerous. They still feel under threat from the authorities, they just want to hide out, but all these things are coming into play. And then rumors start. The tomb is empty. Whoa. There's so much going on in the story. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Yeah. We've been had, right? [00:34:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:59] Speaker A: There's not many things worse for me than, oh, my gosh, I've been had. And now everyone knows it, and they're looking at me and wondering if they should say something or shouldn't say something, which is exactly where they're at right now. The level of embarrassment, I think, is a very real thing. Not only to give years of your life into this, but then to be so publicly known that you failed for a certain amount of time is, ugh, so awkward and horrific. [00:35:28] Speaker B: And the empty tomb interrupts all of this. It interrupts feelings of embarrassment and regret and loss and failure and abandonment and confusion and doubt. Like Jesus in the room interrupts all that. I think maybe that's our hope, right? Is that all the normal yucky human experience, that somehow Jesus alive interrupts those processes, interrupts our shame, interrupts our embarrassment about what we did wrong and right. And, you know all that. Yeah. [00:36:08] Speaker A: And interrupts the mounting shame that they were probably putting on themselves. You wonder if a few disciples were like, I knew Judas was this way, I could have stopped this earlier. [00:36:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:18] Speaker A: Maybe if I would have done xyz, this wouldn't have actually happened because of whatever. And you start to have the regrets. It's a little bit like having a heightened moment, like a first date or something, and then going home and being like, oh, did I actually say that piece? Did we talk about that? And did I laugh at that? Or did I not laugh at that? And to go through every little detail wondering how something could have been improved or better. And I would imagine that's a part of this scenario, too. We could have saved him. We could have done this. Or if I would have just never followed him, it would have saved me a lot of grief in the meantime time. And we do that in faith all the time. It's not just the difficulty and the shame of something not turning out how you'd hoped, but then it's the shame of I could have actually prevented this a long time ago, and I can't believe that I allowed myself to do xyz. [00:37:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I would imagine from how Peter is described, no one is feeling that more than him. You know, when he's on the boat and they see Jesus on the shore, just the amount of what he's processing has to be so intense to the point where then he strips naked, dives in the water and swims. Right. It's that level of intensity that Peter has. Because to be relieved of those levels of shame and guilt is something else. It's something else. And so, yeah, I hope. I hope any of us that are feeling under the weight of shame especially have that aha moment like Peter had where you see Jesus and it's like, oh, he is alive. [00:37:57] Speaker A: Peter. What a guy. What a journey for that dude. Highly emotional, reactionary. He's got to be a really loud guy, right? Peter's a pretty loud person, I gotta believe. [00:38:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of the older brother figure in the group, you know, feels that. Is it. Who's the brother in the Weasleys in Harry Potter that. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Oh, the twins. [00:38:18] Speaker B: No, the older brother. He's like the prefect. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, gosh. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Is it Percy? [00:38:23] Speaker A: Percy. [00:38:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Great poll. Yeah. That's what I think of, like, he's like, I'm older than all these guys. I'll get it. I got this. Jesus, you know, I'll be your junior leader. And he gets it wrong over and over and over again. [00:38:39] Speaker A: I'm a big believer. There's got to be a couple other disciples like Peter. And there's got to be a good handful that were like, Thomas, too. It's just that somehow in the writings, they're like, oh, just put Thomas's name on there. It was just. Just him. It wasn't the three of us over here that were talking trash about how we never should have believed Jesus in the first place. [00:38:55] Speaker B: And then sweet John is just there, just taking it all in. [00:38:59] Speaker A: Oh, John had to be annoying, didn't he? You guys think John's annoying? [00:39:03] Speaker B: I've never thought of John as annoying. I think that's not cool for a lot of people. [00:39:09] Speaker A: The guy who comes to the table and says, I am the one that Jesus. I gotta believe the group is looking at him like, come on, man. Yeah, but, you know, it's probably a blasphemous projection. [00:39:20] Speaker B: I'm thinking in any group of kids, you have the different personalities. There's always that sweet kid who just, you know, he's just a sweetheart through and through. I think of that as John. I don't think of him as, like, the annoying. [00:39:31] Speaker A: Okay, that's good. That's positive. [00:39:32] Speaker B: You know, the Bible, Joseph, you know, in the Old Testament, he was like, oh, I'm the greatest among you. Bow to me soon. You know, all that. I don't think that's. I don't think that's John. Yeah. I don't think that's John. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair. Maybe Joseph. [00:39:45] Speaker B: I think John's a sweetie pie. [00:39:46] Speaker A: Okay. I think that's good. Do you think of them like an ensemble cast in a movie? Like Goonies or the Sandlot? Is that the Disciples? They all kind of have these different attributes and fit the team and group in different ways like that. [00:40:01] Speaker B: Yeah. I would think maybe it's just because of, like, seeing Godspell the musical or something. You always think of how it's been portrayed or the, you know, Da Vinci's Last Supper. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Mm. I don't know. This is where we get to decide which disciple is Chunk, you know? [00:40:17] Speaker B: Oh, Bartholomew. 100%. [00:40:22] Speaker A: I can't remember any of the other names I know. Yeah. Sean Astin. That's not the character name, but that's the actor name. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Yeah. What was his name in Goonies? [00:40:32] Speaker A: It's a great question, Lindsey. Are you a big Goonies fan? [00:40:35] Speaker C: I love the Goonies. I'm going to Google his name right now. [00:40:38] Speaker A: I can't remember any of the names either. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Mikey. [00:40:43] Speaker A: Mikey. Oh, wow. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Okay. [00:40:44] Speaker C: Mikey. [00:40:45] Speaker B: Mouth. Yeah. [00:40:47] Speaker C: Data or Data? What do they. How do they. I don't know. You say it different. [00:40:52] Speaker A: Called them Data. [00:40:53] Speaker B: Right. Dada. [00:40:54] Speaker A: Dada. That's the kid from Indiana Jones. [00:40:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Half. Half, Half, Short. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Half, short, Round. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Short, Round, Short, round, half short. I know. Short was in there. Great actor. And he won an Oscar last year. For what? [00:41:10] Speaker A: I heard that. [00:41:11] Speaker C: I don't remember. [00:41:12] Speaker B: Everyone everywhere, all at once. [00:41:14] Speaker A: I think it's KE Huy Quan Kee Hui Kwan. [00:41:18] Speaker B: What did he win an Oscar for? [00:41:21] Speaker A: I don't know. It was a huge deal, though. [00:41:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:23] Speaker A: Josh Brolin, man. [00:41:25] Speaker B: Josh Brolin was the older brother. [00:41:27] Speaker C: Mm. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Brand. [00:41:28] Speaker B: Yeah, he's the older brother. [00:41:29] Speaker C: Brand. What a name. [00:41:33] Speaker A: That is an interesting name. Mouth, Chunk. Mikey. Andy. Steph. Data. Sloth. It is Data, right? Or Data. How do you say the actual word? [00:41:44] Speaker C: I say Data. [00:41:45] Speaker A: Do you? [00:41:46] Speaker C: Yeah. But I think they called him Data. [00:41:48] Speaker B: In Star Trek. It was Data. [00:41:52] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:52] Speaker B: Famously. I don't know. On Goodyear, I can't remember. [00:41:55] Speaker A: I think Data's the word, though. Would you say Data for, like. Like, stats or whatever it is? [00:42:00] Speaker C: I would. [00:42:01] Speaker A: You would? [00:42:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:02] Speaker A: I wonder what the. Maybe there's not a correct pronunciation, huh? [00:42:06] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Love the Goonies, though. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:09] Speaker A: Still a little creepy, actually. When I rewatch it back, it's scarier than I give it credit for. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know if it holds up as well as others. It's obviously a cult classic, for sure. But some of those old 80s movies, even now, if you had never seen them, you'd be like, that's a great movie. I feel like Goonies only. Holy's riding on the nostalgia. I could be wrong. Don't come at me. [00:42:31] Speaker A: Why does it hold up? It's the graphics. Or the graphics. You mean the graphics, but like the. [00:42:38] Speaker B: Oh, I don't know. Have you watched it recently, Lindsey? [00:42:42] Speaker C: I don't know. I feel like it was on TV in a hotel room I stayed in recently. You might be right, though, because if you come in blind, the. What is it? The not creature, but kind of creature they keep in the basement. [00:42:55] Speaker B: Sloth. [00:42:56] Speaker C: Like, yeah. Coming in line, I'd be like, what? What in the world? And like the weird relationship the mom has with the sons. Borderline inappropriate. Like, what? This was a kid in the 80s. [00:43:11] Speaker A: It's probably past borderline inappropriate. [00:43:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Yeah, you're right. We come in like this, we automatically ignore all the problematic pieces because we. [00:43:19] Speaker C: Love it so much. But I think. Yeah. [00:43:21] Speaker B: Anybody been to the Goonies house? [00:43:23] Speaker A: No, I've never been in Astoria. Yeah, I haven't been out there. [00:43:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Kindergarten Cop also filmed there. [00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Why Astoria? Does anybody know? [00:43:34] Speaker B: Is it tax credits? Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker A: The Ring would wonder. The Ring. [00:43:37] Speaker C: The Ring was in a. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Found in us or filmed in Astoria as well as the Twilight films. [00:43:44] Speaker A: What? Yeah, there's got to be some kind of tax credit in there. [00:43:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:48] Speaker A: Interesting. Goonies. What else from that era? Hook. [00:43:52] Speaker B: I only recently learned, not filmed in Astoria. [00:43:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I learned recently. The Hook is like, panned by critics at the time. [00:44:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Does not have. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Great. [00:44:02] Speaker A: I love that movie so much. [00:44:05] Speaker B: That was one. It was on repeat in my house. It was like the Lion King and Hook just over and over and over again. We love that movie. But, yeah, I've heard a critique of that era, too. Of especially Spielberg was guilty of this. Of, like, the dads shouldn't work. And so any dads who have a job or a career, it's always pitted against, like, either you're a family guy or you have a career. You cannot have both. And so it's like punishing dads for, like, going to work instead of just, I don't know, playing with their kids. [00:44:35] Speaker A: That one went hard on it. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:37] Speaker A: He sends someone down with a video camera to videotape his sons at bats at Little League so that he can watch them back later. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Which one's your son? [00:44:46] Speaker A: Son gets mad and becomes best friends with a pirate captain. That makes perfect sense. [00:44:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Because he loves baseball, that Captain Hook. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:54] Speaker A: Very important. [00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Run Home Jack. When Jack, my son Jack was a baby, we stumbled. We were down in Newport Beach, California, and stumbled upon an outdoor showing of Hook on a lawn. And it was beautiful and just very formative memory with me and Jack watching, you know, Run Home Jack scene with my baby, also Jack. [00:45:20] Speaker A: That's sweet and beautiful. I love that. [00:45:22] Speaker B: It was. Yeah. [00:45:23] Speaker A: Hook's a good time, man. What a great little era of movies. [00:45:26] Speaker B: And to bring it full circle, John Williams composed the score. We're back. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Wow. That's right. John Williams. What else? [00:45:34] Speaker B: We talked about John Williams so much, so much on this podcast. [00:45:38] Speaker A: I haven't referenced Scooby Doo in a long time. That's true. Scooby Doo. John Williams, though, has made a reappearance. Yeah. It's just surprising that what he's in. Right, Exactly. The exercise that we just did. Oh, yeah, he did that one. Oh, yeah, he did that one. Because you talk about the huge films, but then these things that seem a little smaller. [00:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah. He scored Gilligan's Island. [00:45:57] Speaker A: Really? [00:45:58] Speaker B: Yes. Absurd. Fiddler on the Roof. He scored Fiddler on the Roof, the movie. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Wow. [00:46:03] Speaker B: He's just everywhere. Yeah. [00:46:05] Speaker A: How do you know this? [00:46:06] Speaker B: Watch the documentary. [00:46:07] Speaker A: Oh, there is a John Williams documentary. [00:46:09] Speaker B: I think it's Disney plus. [00:46:11] Speaker A: Okay. We've probably talked about that too. [00:46:12] Speaker B: I need to get away. We're losing our audience. People are tuning out. [00:46:15] Speaker A: No, they're still listening. This is what they came for. [00:46:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:18] Speaker A: John Williams this week. The donk last week. I've had great one on one interactions with people talking about last week's episode, by the way, so good job. [00:46:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Justin, did you enjoy last week's conversation about the donk? [00:46:32] Speaker A: He loved it. [00:46:33] Speaker B: Donkey. Yeah. Yeah. [00:46:35] Speaker A: That's why I agree. [00:46:36] Speaker B: That's why you come to these things. You never know what we're going to say. [00:46:39] Speaker A: Hit that button, Evan. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Okay. Ben's been waiting for me to cue the end for about four minutes. [00:46:47] Speaker A: You know me, I could sit here and listen to a discussion about John Williams for a long time. [00:46:51] Speaker B: This outro is not composed by John Williams, but thank you for joining us for these 16 weeks of the Gospel of Mark and through Lent. We're really looking forward to Sunday, Easter Sunday with everyone together. And we hope you have a great end to Holy Week. [00:47:09] Speaker A: They're saying ham, great ham and a great spiral ham. Pastor Evan says it's ham, preferably honey ham.