I am Moana

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: And I'm Evan Earwicker. Hi, Ben. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Good posture, Evan. [00:00:20] Speaker B: I know we had to start over because I was slumping so much before we started, and then I just popped up. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Were you sad and then got happy, or were you, like, a little sleepy and then got energized because we started the take? [00:00:34] Speaker B: That's a good question. I think we have a monitor in here, and I can see how badly I was slouching. [00:00:39] Speaker A: Just going deeply inward. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah. My eyes were barely above the table. So. [00:00:45] Speaker A: We've been singing a lot of Disney songs around here today. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Why Notre Dame? Kind of quality to that that you were channeling, perhaps. That's a musical. Yeah. Lunchback. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Is it? [00:00:55] Speaker A: Gotta be. [00:00:55] Speaker C: It is. [00:00:56] Speaker B: It's a book by. What's his name? [00:01:00] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:02] Speaker A: John Williams. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Very famous French author. [00:01:06] Speaker A: I don't know any of the music from that, though. Why do I not remember the music? Was the music not as good? [00:01:11] Speaker C: It was kind of a dark one. It was a little scary. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Great movie. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Was it made into a musical after the book and then the Disney movie? [00:01:19] Speaker A: Oh, maybe, huh? Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker B: Cause I know it was a book. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker A: I don't know. A great movie. Good memories of it. Don't remember the music, which is kind of the opposite. Sometimes. I feel like you always remember the music from the Disney movies. [00:01:31] Speaker B: Wow. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Maybe you don't love the movie necessarily. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Moana one, of course. With Lin Manuel Miranda. Super catchy, the music. And then they went to do a TV show based on it that eventually became Moana 2, I guess. Oh, and the music just isn't the same. Not as catchy. [00:01:53] Speaker A: Yeah. My daughter's been listening to the music in the truck, and I. Yeah, I. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Can'T remember any of it. [00:01:56] Speaker A: I've been a little critical of it. Yeah. I can't remember any of it right. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Now either, but Moana one, We know the way. Sing it, Lindsay. You're a worship pastor. [00:02:07] Speaker C: I don't know that one. [00:02:08] Speaker B: You don't know? [00:02:08] Speaker A: I know the way. I am Moana. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, There it is. [00:02:12] Speaker C: Yeah, that one. [00:02:13] Speaker B: That's great. [00:02:14] Speaker A: I know the way. You guys are singing the same song, right? Isn't that. [00:02:20] Speaker B: No. Is it? [00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. I am Moana. [00:02:26] Speaker C: No, I think mine's the. [00:02:31] Speaker B: Oh, that to the wa. I'm not sure. [00:02:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And then there's the island. Gives us what we need. [00:02:39] Speaker A: That's my Favorite one leaves. Yeah, that's right. We stay. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:44] Speaker A: We're safe and we're well provided. [00:02:47] Speaker B: And then they go into the crab world. And that's my least favorite part of Moana1. [00:02:51] Speaker A: That's my least favorite part. And then it's not great. [00:02:54] Speaker B: It's the half of the New Zealand comedy duo Flight of the Conchords. Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:02] Speaker A: It is funny and creative in a vacuum. I didn't need it in that movie. For some reason, it always feels like it pulls you way out of whatever world that they've been in. It's a clever bit. And the music is catchy and fun and interesting, but it just didn't belong. You should care about my movie, Take seven. [00:03:24] Speaker B: I do. I'm so with you. Oh, my goodness. [00:03:27] Speaker A: You just started slouching the more. [00:03:29] Speaker B: No, my posture is like a ruler. You could put a ruler down my back. You gotta keep up with that camera right now. Is that a thing people would do in schools in, like, the 1800s? [00:03:39] Speaker A: You had to touch the top of. [00:03:40] Speaker B: The wall with the ruler. Yeah. Like a yardstick. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. [00:03:43] Speaker B: To prove your. My dad saw this video online about how to improve your posture. And you stand with your heels and your shoulder blades and your head up against a wall, and then you pretend you're climbing an invisible rope. And supposedly that's supposed to reset your posture. So you do that every morning. And you'd look like me just with this great posture. [00:04:05] Speaker A: Has anybody ever reset their postures at all? [00:04:07] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't think it's a thing. [00:04:10] Speaker A: You gaining some muscle or something? [00:04:12] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:04:13] Speaker A: This is how we digress After Easter, Right. [00:04:16] Speaker B: This is. [00:04:16] Speaker A: We're in this, like, little. Last week was, we're supposed to record a podcast, but now we're a week late because everyone was kind of in and out of the office a little bit. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a little bit of a frog after Easter, right? [00:04:29] Speaker A: It is, man. Christmas. Everybody gets the week off after Christmas Eve, so there's kind of this big. Yay. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah. You get a Christmas break. [00:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And then you go to Christmas, and Easter is like, that was awesome. Good job. Oh, my gosh. You're tired. Yeah. Go get lunch. See it 9. We'll be in the end. [00:04:44] Speaker B: And we're back for another. Yeah, it's true. And I was definitely feeling it all week. And now we're into this new series in Ephesians. We're leading small groups through it. It's a hard pivot. We'll Say that. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah. It's good, though. Good for the church, I think, to have this big celebratory moment that is surrounding the essence of our faith and then be thrust into an opportunity for community, which is what we're doing with Westside One. People can get into groups, jump into the conversation together in houses or in Bible studies, and then kind of do that church thing that is a result of the Resurrection. It's. It's work for us in the church world, but it's. Right. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like a picture. Right. Of what the implications, I guess, of the resurrection are because Jesus comes out of the tomb and what would have been just a scattered group of disappointed people becomes a new. The new humanity, the new community that Jesus intended to start. And so we're kind of following in those footsteps. Maybe we should have waited till Pentecost, I guess, to launch these groups if we were really going with the timeline. But I like this idea of the Resurrection isn't the end, it's the beginning of all things. And so for us as a church, as a community, we don't see. And the staff, we don't see Easter as the finish line. Like, oh, we got through it great. Now we're just going to wait till next year, Wait till Christmas? No, this is actually the beginning of all things spiritually. [00:06:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Church and community is the answer to the question that they all have after the resurrection of Jesus. Well, what do we do now? Because we're not all going to follow around the rabbi. That's not necessarily with us anymore. And so they begin to do the service into the community. But really the biggest answer to the question of what happens now is church. It's community. It's togetherness and walking out. Understanding the character of Christ forever in those contexts is the most important thing. And that's increasingly hard. I think we all know that and we say it all the time. But you are battling against this individualistic Western culture that we exist in, too. And so us regularly teaching that is supposed to help push back that tide that says, no, it's all about my own wants and needs and whatever serves me. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's the work of the Holy Spirit that you referenced in Ephesians 1, that that is part of the inheritance of Christ. Christ that we share in is the spirit of God that did fall on the church and turned them from a scared group of followers waiting for what they didn't know was going to happen into this bold, empowered, out on the streets kind of community. That was a testament to the way of Jesus and also welcoming in a way that just wasn't common. It wasn't part of their religious ethic to, you know, open their arms to outsiders. This is all brand new. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:33] Speaker B: And that's part of what Paul is doing in Ephesians, right, Is saying this was always the plan. This was always the plan of God, was to open the ironclad gates that were closed for so long and say, actually, everybody's in on this. And this is. This is the story of the church. And so we're. We're kind of mimicking that. A scale model, I guess, of saying, what would it look like for us to have that kind of a rebirth into a new kind of community, even though we're a church that's been around a long time and doing all this stuff. We know all this stuff, but how do we approach it with that newness? [00:08:05] Speaker A: Yeah, you want to play. Even though we've been a church that's been established for a long time, that resiliency, especially of the early church, that took on all those different iterations that you kind of alluded to, there's Jesus comes back, and then the disciples run out with boldness into the streets. And then more followers are created. And then because of the response of the government, you then have underground churches and communities that are collected, collecting the early editions of the gospels and telling the stories the disciples are telling, but kind of doing so quietly and then distributing copies of these scrolls and letters around to others. And the church does exactly what it needs to in the moment in order to continue to survive. It's incredibly resilient. It doesn't just run out into the streets, and Peter preaches, and then all of a sudden, there's just this pure, massive explosion that happens. There's everything. There's movement, there's public teaching, there's quiet, there's hiding, there's persecution. All of is in the soup, and the church is resilient through all of it. Which, of course, gives me a lot of optimism for the church going forward when we're really pessimistic about the church a lot and attendance is down and people are feeling this way. I feel optimistic because of the witness of the early church. If you can make it through that, it seems like we can make it through this. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And even some of the reports coming out about this resurgence in church communities happening, that kind of pushes against that narrative of, you know, church is dead in the west, and we're seeing that. We're seeing signs of life and growth everywhere we look. And so there is this excitement of, oh, maybe Jesus is alive, maybe he is at work in our midst, and maybe it is a new thing and a fresh work that he wants to do. And I am curious for you because you went to Ephesus, you went to these churches in the region that Paul was writing to most, now all now in ruins. Any insights there on our tendency to want to just mimic the early church as opposed to maybe appreciating what happened there and then contextualizing it to where we are today? [00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good point, because the biggest thing, I've said it a lot, going to Ephesus, you're almost just reminded of, like, oh, yeah, this is a real place with real people that were in it, that were trying their best to understand how to do this. And it's not some crazy, massive, extravagant city. Ephesus is beautiful, especially because it's ancient, but it's not. It doesn't have these characteristics that completely blow your mind like a modern city would in a lot of different ways. But, yeah, the insights are, again, Paul is creating a resilient church because he is teaching them to be exactly what they need to be at that moment in time in history for what the culture is facing. And he's making progress in some ways that don't look quite, necessarily quite as progressive to us. I referenced this last week, the idea that Paul is extremely progressive in his language around, and we are all, we're sons of God. And on the surface you can look at it and go, gosh, this is very like male heavy and stuff. But the idea that Paul is pulling everybody in and saying, okay, fine, the context of our culture says that male children are the king, essentially, or the princes of the family, and they are the only ones to grab onto this inheritance. Fine, then we're all sons. Then we're all going to call each other that, because that's the picture that I'm trying to create for you in this church. So Paul allows the context to help move his narrative of how, who Jesus is the character of Christ. And that's what makes his writing so powerful, in my opinion, is that he's connecting these dots between Jesus and then exactly. The culture of Ephesus or these churches that he's writing letters to. [00:11:45] Speaker B: And we wish he would do more, probably. I don't love that. We're going to get to in chapter four and five, where he talks about how slaves should, you know, respect their masters with fear and trembling. I wish he would just say, and masters, you need to free your slaves and abolish this awful affront to the character of Jesus. He doesn't do that here. And yet, even though he is maybe assuming as a man of his time that the institution of slavery is inevitable, we know it's not. Now, he didn't know this, so he's speaking into these things and not always challenging. Everything that we now know should be challenged. And yet in other places in Galatians, he says, now there's no slave or free. There's no male or female, there's no Greek or Jew. We're all under Christ. And so it's both of these things where he's being subversive in ways and then not subversive in others. And how do we wrestle with that? [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah, he's not a 2025 abolitionist. His language can't just be moved immediately into those places. But he is, to give him credit, he is blowing the mind of the people in the culture again by saying something like, fine, then we're all considered sons. We all have this inheritance in God, and that crosses racial lines. It's the Jew and the Gentile that he is connecting the dots to and opening the arms of Christ too, as well as male and female. He's doing a ton of the cultural work. And yes, as a modern day preacher, I want to be. I don't want to have to go to these sections of Scripture and go, okay, well, Paul probably today wouldn't be a big fan of slavery. I know it looks like he's okay with it right now, and here's maybe why. It's frustrating and it's hard to deal with because we're teaching an ancient text to a modern people who none of whom would say slavery is okay. But he is doing the work at the time, a lot of heavy lifting for the early church. [00:13:38] Speaker B: And the community is modeling things that were incredibly progressive. Yes, I think when you say progressive, some people think that's a bad word and some people think it's a really good word. And I know you don't mean it like in a politically progressive way, but it is progress. Yeah, it's pushing. It's pushing past the status quo. And the community itself is doing that. That Paul is writing to. When you have wealthy landowners sitting next to their slaves, hearing the teaching of the apostles, women leading in these churches, all of that pushes back against the status quo in ways that we couldn't grasp today. And so I always find it helpful to say, what is that shocking push that would jar us in our comfy 21st century churches? Out of our comfort zone today. Because I think the person of Jesus always will push us out of things that we just assume are normal and how the way is. And it didn't work then because Paul is pushing people. Hey, I know you want to be segregated. I know you want Greeks over there and the Jews over here. Nope, can't do that. And so he's pushing, he's pushing, he's pushing. He just maybe isn't pushing in ways that we now look back and say, oh, but you should have also pushed there. And yet we have the responsibility now to say, where is the scripture actually pushing us out of our comfort zones? [00:15:02] Speaker A: Yeah, he's a huge positive stepping stone in progress in a lot of these ways. Which is why I use the word progressive. Yes, sorry, Trigger words for some. [00:15:11] Speaker B: I just, I'm imagining that person that's like, oh, that's amazing how progressive Paul was. And then the other person is like, he was progressive. Wait, so he was a bad guy, you know, like that. [00:15:21] Speaker A: I know. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Because people hear those words so differently. [00:15:23] Speaker A: In our language has been common here. I mean, progressive in the purest form of. He did something that made progress. [00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a very regressive, in a way, regressive religious society that was very much, you know, women have a place and it's the property of the husband or the father. Slaves, completely. You know, cool. That's great. And everyone had their social order. The church is coming in and blowing a lot of that up in a way that even for like a Greek society, which was at the time very much forward, moving and thinking, still love to hold onto these really oppressive ways. Right. [00:16:03] Speaker A: And you really see this expressed in Paul's letter to Philemon. Right. And Colossians has a little tiny piece of this story as well. But Onesimus is a slave that has done something wrong to Philemon. And then there's all these laws and all these permissions now that are given to Philemon in order to exact justice against him. And Paul jumps into the fray and says, no, there's a better way. There's a Jesus way and how we're supposed to function in the church. And so, yeah, again, progress, new things, new ways of thinking in light of the gospel. And that is going back to what you said. That's our job today as Christians is in our own context, to think about sometimes problems or cultural things, social things with a different light than maybe one in two parties are saying or one or two groups are saying and fighting over. And we say, no, we're going to See this in a way that Jesus would have us see it and do that work. That's a deep, difficult work to do, that doesn't just look and say, well, this is the way that's always been done. And so this is the way that it always will be. Instead, this really Holy Spirit move that we have to submit ourselves to and try to understand the will of God in that. [00:17:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And that understanding is a big theme in Ephesians 1. Understanding the knowledge of Christ and also understanding our role in it. You talked about this yesterday. The perspective of understanding how God's story and our stories intertwine and intersect and getting that perspective on kind of this. I think you said the bird's eye view of the Christian faith and our part in it is what Paul is doing right off the bat for the Ephesian Church. And actually, I think it was all the churches in the area. He's not writing in the earliest manuscripts. He's not just writing to Ephesians, but all of the ones in Asia Minor, Turkey. [00:17:49] Speaker A: Asia Minor. [00:17:51] Speaker B: And so it's this plea of Paul saying, hey, don't get so insular in your faith that you think this is all about here and now and you and just your community. There's a bigger picture here of what God is doing and what he's been doing. And we lack perspective a lot of times in our world, of course, because it's all about our own progress and our own way and our own success, and we can lose sight of the bigger picture that God is. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And he ends up finishing with this idea of when you gain this perspective and this bird's eye view, what you should come away with is a confident hope in what Jesus has done and then how that translates to the rest of our lives. But perspective, that bird's eye view overall, is so important because I think it calms us down. It takes us out of this urgency of this specific moment. Perfect example is what I would love to say we've heard over the last couple years, probably heard over the last several hundred years, where people say, Christianity is dead, faith is dead, the church is dead, the church is no longer going to exist, and whatever. And when you pull back and get the perspective and go, well, the early church went through this, and here's a long lineage of people that have been through all kinds of things, whether it was spiritually or socially, and the church continues to survive, it makes it through. And so it pulls us out of this, like, well, if we don't do this right now, then it's all over. And we will have let God down. So he tries to reassure them of that, but also to see that our story fits into the greater story of God. And while we want to become obsessed with our own success, we get to be a part of a larger tapestry. Just a color, a blip, a thread inside of that tapestry that makes it so beautiful and its value and important. And you would miss it if it were gone. And yet it gives me a lot of reassurance of like, yeah, I'm not gonna ruin this all by myself. My badness. [00:19:42] Speaker B: It's a relief. [00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a huge relief. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And when you let yourself off the hook to be the end all. And I think especially as church leaders, when we stop thinking like, it's up to me to be the flagship for any good thing that will ever come out of the church, we've got to encapsulate all of that. No, maybe we have a role to play in the larger tapestry. And so we don't have to be all things. We don't have to do all the programs. We don't have to, you know, we can be uniquely what we are called to be in our community, in our context. And if we do that obediently, maybe we don't do X, Y and Z that the other church down the road or across the country does. And that's okay. You know, we don't have to be the next fill in the blank of your big megachurch or whatever it may be. And I have no ill will towards megachurches. I think sometimes it's popular, like, pile on megachurches. Are we a megachurch? I think historically we've skirted the edge of megachurch. I think it's like 3,000 people on a weekend or something, I think. So maybe at our biggest back in the 90s, there was times where we considered that nothing against megachurches, but also on the flip side, they're also not the model that everyone should aspire to. So we all fit this, this role. I think within the larger story of what Jesus is doing in the world. [00:21:00] Speaker A: Pastors fall for this the worst. My next sermon is going to be the thing that changes everything and fixes one of the best things. Another staff member, kind of a mentor, I guess, for a little while. And my last church in Klamath was Roger Stevens. And he. I was talking about a message that I feel like I was mediocre or whatever. And he said, you really got to start thinking about teaching in like year long spans. Like what's the, the Guideline or the markers that you're making across a whole year. And then you can stop and try to analyze all those bits and pieces. You'll kill yourself week to week and Sunday to Sunday, feeling like you hit every single note exactly right. You said the right thing, and then you got the right response. Because again, what we're trying to do in community and in perspective is create this larger experience that is beyond getting people to a certain emotional state every. [00:21:52] Speaker B: Week or something like that, or training people that next week's gonna. I'm gonna one up myself, funnier jokes, you know, better. Better stories, more crying at the end. It's gonna be just, you watch. And what an exhausting, you know, burning candle on both ends. And you'll burn out. The church will burn out, and you'll burn out as the preacher. Right. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Teachers get. They have to be edgy then and then edgy and edgy and edgy until eventually, I guess, you fall off the edge. You can only cut off so much of that to make some kind of a wow impact. Until sometimes you're just preaching in the middle of Exodus. Right. Didn't we do that? [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yeah, we did. [00:22:29] Speaker A: There's a couple messages where you're like, this is important to the part of the story. It's tough to preach and teach, and I don't know how anybody will be wowed by it, but it fits into the larger story, so it should be told. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Speaking of edgy, you quoted Harry Potter books yesterday. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah. So many comments on that. I taught a message about Ephesians and blessings that God has given us. And my feedback immediately following was, oh, my gosh, I'm so glad or I'm so scared of you quoting Dumbledore. And I miss my kids. I got a lot of parents because I shared a story about Joel facetiming me and crying on Saturday. I had a lot of parents being like, I haven't seen my kids in X amount of time. And I missed that. And that was the two areas of feedback. Not a lot of Ephesians, but a lot of talk about Dumbledore. That's amazing. [00:23:22] Speaker B: It's so interesting. And we talked about this after the second service of. When Harry Potter first came out in the late 90s. There was such an uproar from evangelicals about, this is like trying to get witchcraft into our kids. And it turns out they're beautiful stories about love and sacrifice and friendship and good over evil. No one had read them. The evangelicals hadn't read them. They just knew it was about witchcraft. And you referenced the 11. You said, you know, we really like some of our wizards, so we love our Gandalf. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Gandalf is great. [00:23:56] Speaker B: Yeah. But not Dumbledore. And it's so funny how we make these distinctions based on, you know, I think C.S. [00:24:02] Speaker A: Lewis has some wizards, too. [00:24:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:04] Speaker A: It's so funny, man. Dumbledore is great. And that quote, and this gets back to that confident hope. The quote that I use from Dumbledore was something of the fact that, like Voldemort or the evil bad guy simply cannot understand someone giving up their life for someone else. And that is where, like, the power, right? It's. It's considered magic in that context. That's where the magic comes in, that protects you. But that's the story of Jesus, the evil can. I love that idea of evil even being confused or confounded by that. That evil understands so much and can manipulate the world, and it just malfunctions next to sacrifice for someone else. That's a really beautiful thought. [00:24:46] Speaker B: Yeah. It reminds me of. Is it in First Corinthians where Paul's talking about the power of the cross and how, you know, all the principalities were humiliated as the cross triumphed over them, you know, and I think maybe it's in the message where he talks about, you know, them being paraded through the streets, you know, in shame. It's like, what. But what the cross was intended to do to Jesus is what, in the end, self sacrifice and the mercy Jesus showed on the cross through his own death actually did to evil itself, did to death itself, that the one who was supposed to be humiliated and shamed and was on the cross now, through his resurrection, shames the principalities and powers and death itself. And it is this great reversal, right, that is at the heart of what we talked about on Easter. And. And of course, moving into Ephesians is just. We have to remind ourselves again and again. And maybe that's what our job is through Ephesians is what a great work Christ has done for us to now be joined with him, to now be sons and daughters. And you talked a lot about this, of having our identity shaped first by our sonship, by our daughtership. Is daughtership a word? [00:25:58] Speaker A: I know. [00:25:59] Speaker B: I look at you, Lindsay. You're a daughter of God. [00:26:04] Speaker C: You must know. Sure. We'll go with yes, it is a word. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Sonship, daughtership. [00:26:09] Speaker A: He looked at you because you're the producer, right? [00:26:11] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:11] Speaker A: That's why not. Because you're a woman. [00:26:13] Speaker B: You can Google right now. I don't have a Computer. So the least interesting thing to Google is daughtership, a word. [00:26:23] Speaker A: The underlying kind of the subtext of all of Paul's work speaks to what you're talking about. And this, it's kind of like the base to a music track or the synth or something like that. Paul talks about all these things and shares all this great theology and says things like, now there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Paul's a murderer killing Christians. And now he's talking to people who are probably connected to folks who he. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Has killed or they're formally prisoned or imprisoned at least. [00:26:54] Speaker A: And he's looking at them and he is talking about the joy that is found in Christ and the fact that, that there is no condemnation, that we've been set free. And what a audacious place to come to for him. That if I'm him I would probably be filled with guilt and I wouldn't want to say those things. But then also to have the boldness to say even for me is what he is. I've chosen to do that in a lot of the Ephesians reading that I'm doing is that he's saying, even for me there is freedom in this, and even for me there is all of the blessings that the soul could ever desire and in Christ Jesus. And that should give us some hope that we can all arrive there. He did the worst things that you can do and is still finding this new freedom in Jesus. It's a powerful thing that just. It exists in all of those letters and not always talked about by him, sometimes by Paul, but not always. [00:27:47] Speaker B: And I don't know if he models it perfectly because he isn't a perfect person. He's not Jesus, he's Paul. But there's an awareness when he talks about the things I want to do, I don't do, and the things I want to do, I don't, I can't do. And who will save me from this body of death? And I'm the chief of sin, you know, and all this. And so there is a self awareness not only of his past, but of his current struggles, you know, and famously when he's wrestling with this thorn in his flesh. And three times he said, please, please God, take this away. And then the Spirit of God responds, my grace is sufficient for you. My power is made perfect in weakness. So Paul is like actively wrestling with his own weakness in real time. And I don't know if we're always comfortable with that, especially as leaders. It feels like at some point we should be graduated from that struggle and certainly from the public struggle. And Paul models a different way. I think some of the best leaders that we've sat under and follow are the ones that also are comfortable in the struggle currently. Because it's one thing to talk about back in the day, you know, bless God, I got a good testimony now. But to admit the struggle in real time. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:06] Speaker B: Wow. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah. He's working it out right in front of us. Paul is. Which is. Yeah, you're right. If this were happening in the modern day, you would go, hey, long sabbatical for you. Stop talking. Stop talking for a little while. Don't process this in front of her. Everyone go. Consider it thinking about, maybe write about it, and then we'll put you on the teaching circuit five years from now and you can talk about how things were back then. Yeah. He gives you a model for how to process it in a lot of ways in real time. Lindsay, I feel like you have an answer for daughtership. Is daughtership over out there? [00:29:37] Speaker C: It is indeed a word. [00:29:39] Speaker A: No way. Great to know you get to use that this week. That'll be awesome. [00:29:43] Speaker C: It doesn't roll off the tongue. [00:29:45] Speaker A: Daughtership. [00:29:45] Speaker C: I think that's. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Yeah, daughtership. Daughtership. Oh, it sounds. Is the Icelandic, the Nordic. They have all the daughters, the umlauts. You've heard this? [00:29:58] Speaker C: I've not heard this. [00:29:59] Speaker B: No, I'm looking at it. [00:30:00] Speaker A: A lot of the last names. I really only learned this because I did CrossFit for so long. And a lot of the best female crossfit athletes are like, Katrin, David's daughter. That's their last name is D A V I D S D O T T R. Oh, daughter. Daughter. Daughter, yeah. Or Sigmund's daughter. That's another one. There's another big CrossFit you guys tracking. Is this making sense to you? [00:30:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I just dozed off. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Icelandic CrossFit women. And this will all be so niche. [00:30:32] Speaker B: I placed an order from IKEA this morning, so I'm kind of tracking. [00:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Nordic furniture. [00:30:38] Speaker B: Yeah. The email, the email confirmation. I just got this a few minutes ago, and it said Hey, H E J as the greeting, so. [00:30:47] Speaker A: Really? [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:48] Speaker A: Is that trying to make that feel like you're getting an authentic experience? [00:30:52] Speaker B: I think it might be the Swedish way to say hey. [00:30:55] Speaker C: Shall I Google that as well? [00:30:56] Speaker B: Yes, please do. H E J he J. Hey, hey, hey, hey. [00:31:03] Speaker C: I think our common sense could say. Yeah, that's probably what it means. [00:31:07] Speaker B: Yes. [00:31:07] Speaker C: It's a way to say hi or hello. [00:31:09] Speaker B: Oh, there you Go. Yeah. [00:31:11] Speaker A: Anyway, very nice. Was anything else in Swedish? [00:31:13] Speaker B: I didn't read the rest. Okay, I just saw the. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Heck, I hope they really. Hey, have you been to Sweden? [00:31:18] Speaker B: No. [00:31:19] Speaker A: No. [00:31:20] Speaker B: There's cheap tickets. Redmond to Stockholm, 600 for October. [00:31:23] Speaker A: How did you see that? [00:31:25] Speaker B: I just know these things. [00:31:26] Speaker A: Sure. [00:31:29] Speaker B: Look it up, you'll find that it's true. [00:31:31] Speaker A: Redmond. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Redmond to Stockholm in October. [00:31:35] Speaker A: I just know these things. Like, it's a joke. Guys, how many times in a meeting is something said? And Evan's like, I know that. Or I have an answer to that. [00:31:43] Speaker C: Too many. [00:31:44] Speaker A: And everyone's like, of course you know that. Not like a know it all. [00:31:47] Speaker B: Nobody wants to be the know it all. I'm sorry, you guys. [00:31:49] Speaker A: I'll shout. You're not a know it all. You just know so many things, and it's. [00:31:54] Speaker B: I just know it all. No, the reason I know this, my wife wants to go to Stockholm because we have a lot of, you know, like, our ancestors are from Sweden. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:32:10] Speaker B: Which you can tell by looking at the complexion of my daughter, if you're ever wondering. That poor girl, she is so pale. But, yeah, so we'd love to go to Stockholm. So she has an alert out, you know. Okay, what's your favorite. Where do you search for flights? This is a helpful tip for anybody listening. [00:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I do it. I mean, I get on and then I just search basically over the course of a year in different months, and then I will plan vacations around the cheapest flights as opposed to kind of the opposite direction. I don't wait for the alerts to come around. Scotch. Cheap flights. Is that still a thing? People still do that? [00:32:45] Speaker C: I think so. [00:32:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. [00:32:47] Speaker A: It works. I know. I think that's how Brent does it. [00:32:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:51] Speaker A: Brent finds cheap flights. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. He's been on that for a long time. Yeah. [00:32:54] Speaker A: Anyway, leave it to the earwickers. Finding the best deals, best times. [00:32:58] Speaker B: You get to know your stuff. We know it all. [00:33:02] Speaker A: You guys know so much. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Last thing I want to talk about from your message before we go. You talked about the security in our being a son or daughter of God. And this is another thing where, if you're new to church, you probably didn't think anything of it, but if you've been raised in church, this idea of, oh, there's nothing I can do to lose my being a daughter or son of God is hard, tough for some people. It kind of has this ring of, like, once saved, always saved. You just sign on the dotted line, and then you can go live. However, what was the heart behind what you taught, which is in Ephesians, of this security that we have as those who are now the sons and daughters of God, that isn't just one day you're in, one day you're out. You didn't perform well. You talked about your own kids. You don't inspect their bedrooms and see if their beds are made before you decide. [00:33:58] Speaker A: See if they're still Fleming. [00:33:59] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll see how you do tomorrow if this is going to stick. So talk about that. [00:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think you, you find people in the Christian faith a lot of times evaluating themselves on a day to day basis of how well they're doing or if they're still in. A lot of this comes out in the discourse about the will of God. I'm really trying to discover the will of God for my life, which means I'm trying to hit this specific mark. I'm trying to get on the train exactly where God is telling me to and then get off at the correct stuff. Like that way of living is so unsustainable in the Christian faith. And it sounds kind of interesting and exciting. I think when you're between the ages of like 14 and 25, that it's kind of this grand adventure of treasure hunting in the Christian faith. But really what it translates to is some days I can be on the right track and other days I can completely fall off and be abandoned by the whole thing. And it's such a dangerous way to live. If you stay in the church or in the faith, a lot of times it comes with a lot of shame. And then a lot of times you end up leaving the church anyway because you feel like you can't hold a certain kind of standard that allows you to remain in the community. And so those people especially leave and they leave very quietly and full of a lot of shame, feeling that kind of distance. And so I wanted to offer an opportunity, as Paul does, I think in this passage of scripture, to say, no, we're really secure in this. Like, and like a good parent would. We're not wondering what your temperament's going to be like in the morning and then decide whether to give you a ride to school or not. Like, we're in this together always. And it's unlike any other relationship that we could have. And I referenced, you know, I could quit my job, I could get divorced in my marriage, and we could stop calling each other husband and wife. A lot of these things could change. But the biology of how it works is that I am the father to Joel and Jovi forever. And that's how it works. They can stop talking to me. I'm still their dad. I could never see them again. Again, I'm still their dad. And all those things would be heartbreaking, of course, and not the way that we want to live. But it doesn't change the fact that they're a son or a daughter. And that's why Paul is using that language, I think. He's not just talking about a different kind of covenant in this world. He's talking about the biological connection of a son and a daughter to their father or mother is the same as this loving connection between God and us, that you can't break it and separate it. Which, again, I'm sure in the context people are wondering all the time, am I still in? Am I in the kingdom of God? Have I received eternal life? And people ask Jesus that all along the way because of this fear. Right? [00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And it seems that even the question maybe is unhelpful because what it would drive us to is to say, okay, I'm in. So I'm good. I actually don't need to pursue Christ. I don't need to follow because I'm in Ticket to Heaven. Great. Or it causes us to say, I'm out. Oh no, what do I have to do to get back on God's good side? And. And so much of Paul's writings is to remind us like, no, it's by grace, not works. And so if our trust is in Christ, it's in his work that has saved us. And even the fact that we're in that conversation says something about our following after his way, to where this whole question of am I in or out? Doesn't really lead to any productive, healthy path to reengage with Christ. Right. Because if we're asking that question about ourselves, it's probably not applicable. And if we're asking about somebody else, why are we so concerned? Why don't we just encourage everyone to reach for Jesus and see what they find and trust that God is at work in their lives? So maybe that's my takeaway from yesterday, was there's these big theological questions, practically, maybe it's unhelpful to even be asking those questions of where's the line, in and out. It's more of a question of is our trust in Jesus and his work full stop. Right? [00:37:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Tim Keller talks about it. He says, he says, you shouldn't be looking for this crazy pivotal moment where all of a sudden everything changes so that's unhealthy. But you should have a point where you say, I'm in this and I want to follow after Jesus and I'm in on the family of God. It's not going to behavior modificate every single thing right away, but you should offer yourself a moment just to say, yeah, I'm jumping in and I'm following after Jesus. And then allow that relationship between a father and a child to take it away from there. It's as simple as that. And I think the church has created over the course of history, in some cases this. Well, we kind of want you to wonder, because then you have to be attached to us. You have to come and perform the liturgy and the rituals in order to make sure that you're still in. And so you're going to participate with us. That gives us a certain amount of power. But I would go the opposite direction in saying the sense of security, of saying, it's already done, you're in. It's good, Father God. Then in a healthy relationship, it compels you to more relationship. Right. I love my kids. They're Fleming's forever. They're my son's daughters forever. I want to go on a car ride with you now. I want to do another one. And then I want to go get Chick Fil A and then I want to get Dairy Queen, and then I want to hit baseballs. And it comes as a result of this security. It's just a part of it. You can't resist it in a good relationship. [00:39:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And that sonship, daughtership, which is a word. It does. It leads to further relationship. And I think that is the point. And if we're sitting on the outside wanting to have just a strictly theological, intellectual conversation about salvation, I think there's places for that. But when it comes to our relationship with Christ, so much healthier to start from a place where he's done all the work and made his way to us, rather than thinking like, whew, I finally scratched and clawed my way and performed well enough and became moral enough to get on God's good side. Already you've lost the point. [00:40:06] Speaker A: Right? [00:40:06] Speaker B: Already you've missed what the cross is all about and what, what, what Paul. [00:40:10] Speaker A: Is trying to and who has ever performed or competed themselves to a point where they find security anyway. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:16] Speaker A: You know, the greatest thinkers and athletes who achieve so much, I don't know a single one of them that got to a point in their life and they said, whew, okay, done competing. I'm Satisfied. My soul is now fulfilled. You know, Michael Jordan, the greatest competitor I think, that we ever have is still just, like, on the golf course every week, trying to bet money and make money and compete. It's this ingrained thing. I have to show again that I'm worthy of whatever I have already received and then go try to get more. That's where Jesus is countercultural and not even cultural, but just counter our own natural human tendency to say, no, it's already done. [00:40:57] Speaker B: It's finished. You're with me. Do you think Michael Jordan ever just calculates what he's made in Air Jordan royalties and just bets that amount during the. You know, that's what I would do. I'd be like, okay, well, I'm up. But 4 million for this round. I mean, he put all that on your. [00:41:13] Speaker A: He's. You guys watch the Last Dance documentary? You guys watch that? It came out during the pandemic, and it was kind of a. Everyone was. It seemed like everyone was watching it because there were no sports and there was no. Nothing new coming out. Fascinating documentary following around Jordan through his career, but it really focuses on the last year. And he's gambling security guards how close they can throw a quarter to the wall, you know, and whoever's closest then wins the money, you know, and, you know, the security guards beating him and gives him this little face. I heard another story today about Michael Jordan playing dominoes and betting, you know, Anyway, that guy just can't. It's not even about the money he's betting. It's the extreme alpha, dominant competitiveness that I gotta believe makes him kind of hard to be around, actually. [00:42:06] Speaker B: Isn't it kind of cruel when you have the kind of wealth he does? And then you see a security guard like, hey, I'll bet you $10,000 on this. That security guard has no business participating in that. He's probably giving him money. [00:42:18] Speaker A: I hope so. [00:42:18] Speaker B: My gosh, it reminds me of. I told my son he had just started playing chess. I'm like, okay, Jack, I'll play chess. And whoever wins, if you win, I'll give you $100. And it was such a mean thing. Cause I knew you'd beat him. I'd beat him because he barely knew how to play, but he's grinding. And then afterwards, he got so sad. I'm like, I'm sorry, Jack. And he said, you know, to adults, a hundred dollars is nothing, but to kids, it's everything. And he starts sobbing. I realized, yeah, I'm the Michael Jordan. [00:42:51] Speaker A: Jack is amazing to Kids, it's everything. Lindsay, I gotta feel. I feel like you're not gambling with your kids. Kids. [00:42:59] Speaker C: No, no, I'm not. They are extremely competitive. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Really. [00:43:07] Speaker C: So Eric and I used to race home from church because we always take two cars. Cuz I have to be here super early. And so I'd take one kid, he'd take another, and we'd race home. And whoever loses is just destroyed. Like, my children just. They can't. So even now, the thought of a race to Luca, she's like, no, we can't. I won't race. So they get to. They're too close to it. They're too competitive. Can't do it. [00:43:30] Speaker A: I love that. She's just like, no, I'm not going. [00:43:32] Speaker C: She refuses. [00:43:32] Speaker A: I'm so competitive. I won't compete. [00:43:34] Speaker C: She doesn't even want to think about the possibility of losing. [00:43:37] Speaker B: Wow. [00:43:37] Speaker C: Because maybe it's losing to her little sister. That might be more what it is, but she can't do it. [00:43:44] Speaker A: I think that. I see that with Joel and Joe. Joel is a huge competitor and wants to play. And then if he loses, he's not happy, but he handles it fine. Jovi and I will be playing. Sorry. Or something. A board game. And then Joel will be like, I want to play. And she'll be like, oh, I'm leaving. We'll see you. I will not participate in this. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Wow. [00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:04] Speaker B: Brings up real stuff. [00:44:05] Speaker A: She's so competitive. [00:44:07] Speaker B: Competition. Well, I think the encouragement today then is don't get your kids hooked on gambling at a young age. Harry Potter's cool now. Everyone's good with it. [00:44:17] Speaker A: We're gonna go shoot some quarters in the hallway right now. That's what. [00:44:20] Speaker B: And watch the last dance. Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Yeah. You guys watch the last dance. Let me know what you think. [00:44:24] Speaker B: All right. I haven't. I didn't see it. So, anyway. All right, we'll be back the next five weeks as we work through the book of Ephesians with the whole church. And we're glad to have you guys along as we talk through Paul's letter to the Ephesians. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Join a Westside One group. Jump in. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Westsidechurch.org 1. It'll be great. And we'll see you next week on behind the Message.