If we’re not laughing, we’re crying.

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. [00:00:17] Speaker B: Hi, Ben. Oh, sorry. [00:00:20] Speaker A: That's Evan Earwicker, who interrupted me. And that's Lindsay Parnell. [00:00:24] Speaker C: Hello. [00:00:24] Speaker A: Yeah, Lindsay, you're being a guest today. [00:00:27] Speaker B: I just have to say. Yeah, I picked up my coffee cup. [00:00:30] Speaker C: You were doing a weird nose flare. [00:00:34] Speaker B: I don't think it's weird, but I think it's beautiful. [00:00:35] Speaker A: I think that's a product of getting older, though. I think that's just something I'm doing. I'm generally getting weirder. [00:00:42] Speaker B: It probably means you need more oxygen through your nose. [00:00:47] Speaker A: Those deep inhales that I just regularly [00:00:49] Speaker B: take throughout the day. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Yeah, probably, yeah. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Lindsay, you brought a guest here in the room? [00:00:52] Speaker C: My sister's in the room. Nobody can see her, but she's over there. Cutie pie. Yeah, she's visiting from New York, and she has to hang out with me. She doesn't have a car, so she's sitting. [00:01:03] Speaker A: She's, like, being held hostage a little bit. [00:01:08] Speaker B: That's the best when you're like, hey, you're gonna come and watch me record a podcast? Yeah. [00:01:12] Speaker A: We're not gonna give you a microphone. Just sit in the room in the dark, and that's it. So who's. Who's older? [00:01:19] Speaker C: I am. [00:01:19] Speaker A: You're the older sister? [00:01:20] Speaker C: Yep, I'm the older sister. [00:01:21] Speaker A: How many years? [00:01:22] Speaker C: Almost five. Wow. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Nice. Was Lindsay a kind older sibling? [00:01:27] Speaker C: Jane. [00:01:27] Speaker A: She was usually okay. [00:01:30] Speaker C: She was a good one. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Wow. A good one. [00:01:33] Speaker C: I did pretend like I was demon possessed one time, though, and scared the tar out of me. Did you really? I did. She was probably, like, six or seven. I'm sure I was demon possessed. [00:01:42] Speaker B: Seven. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Wow. Do you think. Or were you a little older? I think I was around that. Yeah. I was pretty mean. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Spiritual pranks. That's a hallmark of evangelical upbringing. Say, are you an Earwicker? That sounds right up their alle pranks. Hilarious. Yeah, all the things. Did you pull some rapture pranks too? I think we did. Just disappeared. I think we did. Yeah. But whenever I see you two together, I always go back to the concert that we played together in Albuquerque. What year was that? That had to be. [00:02:15] Speaker C: It was between 2010 and 2013. That's when I lived there. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, a long time ago. And the band. Yeah, the band I was in. We did our one and only tour of the southwest and ended up in Albuquerque. And you guys set up a show, and you guys performed, and then, famously, the band Tree performed. Do you remember this? [00:02:39] Speaker C: With like, 12 E's? [00:02:40] Speaker B: The. The reason I remember it, I think they. They opened for you guys, or you opened for them, anyway. They were before us, and I. I swear, they went for, like, an hour and a half. [00:02:52] Speaker C: Yes, they did. [00:02:52] Speaker B: They played and we waited and waited. And, you know, you guys had a following in Albuquerque. We definitely did not. So making people wait till, you know, three hours in to hear people they've never heard of before, it was not a good. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:08] Speaker B: A good flow to the night, Elliot. Yeah. Yeah. So funny. Nobody went out there. And do you remember this night, Jane, coming back? Yeah. Especially the Tree bit with all the E. Yeah, the. [00:03:19] Speaker C: The tree with the E's somewhere downtown. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. [00:03:23] Speaker C: I don't remember, like, an art gallery or something. [00:03:25] Speaker A: Anyway, yeah, I'm sad I missed all this bonding. I showed up just after, you know, and was never in the band. But these stories are fantastic. [00:03:33] Speaker B: It is. It is a funny quirk, though, of seeing you, Jane, whenever you come to town. That's, like, the only memory I really have of us all together. Always like Tree. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:43] Speaker B: They sure played a long time. [00:03:44] Speaker C: Yeah, they. And I don't think they're listening to this. [00:03:47] Speaker B: This Tree. [00:03:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:48] Speaker B: Oh, no, they weren't very good. They weren't very good. They weren't very good. Yeah. What would be the genre? They were, like, experimental. [00:03:56] Speaker C: Yeah. Kind of like me without you. Esque. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Oh, I was going to say me without you. [00:04:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:03] Speaker A: Did you like me without you? [00:04:04] Speaker C: I did, yeah. [00:04:05] Speaker A: I did, too. I did, yeah. Big era for me. Felt edgy. [00:04:10] Speaker C: Felt so edgy, you know, it's performative for me. [00:04:14] Speaker A: Performative. The enjoy was performative. It felt like I couldn't listen to, like. What is it? Coheed and Cambria? [00:04:22] Speaker C: How do you say? [00:04:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I felt like I couldn't. I wasn't allowed to listen to that. And me without you came along, and for some reason, I felt like it was a similar level of different. And so I engaged in. Me without you. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Do you have current performative interests that actually you don't like, but you're like, I want to be the person that likes. Yeah, fill in the blank. [00:04:44] Speaker C: Really good question, actually. [00:04:45] Speaker A: I actually think I could use a little bit more of that. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:47] Speaker A: I veer pretty far to the other side of, like, oh, that's a thing that I should like. And I'm gonna hate it just because. Because I'm an embarrassment like that. [00:04:56] Speaker B: I'm very immature. [00:04:59] Speaker A: I should have more performative likes. [00:05:03] Speaker C: I don't have any. I don't think. What about you? [00:05:09] Speaker B: I don't. Yeah, it's a good question because it probably would reveal a lot. That's a hard question because you really gotta figure out. The thing is I don't actually embrace a lot of interests, like as identity pieces. Like, I just don't. Yeah. So there's not a lot that I'm like, yeah, I'm a baseball guy like Ben. I don't, I don't care. [00:05:28] Speaker C: That would be performative. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Well, have you been tempted to become a real big baseball guy like me to. That's the thing. [00:05:35] Speaker B: Never. No, I just, I don't care. Yeah, I, I, and I think it's a personality type that like wants to have all the hobbies and all the, the interests and all the gear that go with those things. And I don't know, I've just never, I've never felt that impulse. Yeah. [00:05:53] Speaker A: So no fishing? You ski? [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker A: But you never talk about skiing ever. [00:05:59] Speaker B: And I, I've, I've been skiing most of my life. So it's not like I just picked it up in my 40s to prove something I don't know. Well, this was gonna be a really great, thoughtful conversation. Now we're all like, nope, not me. Other people are performative in their likes. [00:06:15] Speaker A: You have to think about it harder. Yeah, I don't know. [00:06:19] Speaker C: I do probably need to think about [00:06:21] Speaker B: actually is a good segue though, into what we're going into the next few weeks. We're talking about emotionally healthy relationships and, and a lot of that is like getting to an honest place with where we're really at in relationships so we can show up vulnerably. And honestly, I think even this weekend we're going to talk about the greatest commandment, which I think that really gets into our performative motives for how we show up in relationships. In community for sure. And in one on one relationships, if our motivation is wrong or performative, we want to be the kind of person that it can skew things to where we're actually being very selfish in relationships. Do you guys feel that tension in your own. Maybe start with the view of community and how faith intersects with relationships. Where we want to care for people because we want to be the kind of people that care about people. But it maybe falls short from actually doing the hard work of loving people. [00:07:22] Speaker C: I think professional ministers of any kind will always walk that line. Yeah, because we feel the burden. We know the right thing to do, we're teaching the right thing to do. And if we're not doing it what choice do we have other than to perform or pretend? You know? Like, I just feel like those lines are very easily blurred. And so a caution for people who are in any type of paid vocational ministry. Like, yeah, you have to do a deeper work to make sure it's authentic and you are caring for people, actually caring for people, you know, and not just preaching it. But, yeah, that's a tension I feel. Very much so. [00:08:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I want to disqualify myself because the professional ministry thing is where you're right, we're already. We're teaching the quote, unquote, right thing. We kind of know the. We can at least mimic the right steps in a lot of ways. But then what is real and what's honest and genuine, vulnerable and close and. But I've actually come to believe that those things aren't necessarily completely separate. Like, I think it comes up in AA a lot in the Big Book. They talk about you can't think your way into acting differently, but you can act your way into thinking differently. And I think that's true in relationships, that it often starts with this, I'm gonna do the right thing, and I'm gonna talk the right way because it's the right way to go about it. And then with enough habit and connectivity, that eventually creates a spot for vulnerability to really show up in its most genuine form. And so there is this. I don't know if it's fake it till you make it, but it's kind of related to that. [00:08:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker A: I used to feel a sense of shame around that. And then my response was, okay, I'm not going to be vulnerable in relationships, period, because I don't want to work through what I feel like is this very fake version of me on the. On the front end. And now I'm like, well, no, even if I feel that way, that's okay, because ultimately, I believe if we stay connected enough together that there's a vulnerable and beautiful place in relationship along the way. And so I guess the answer to the original question, which I can't remember exactly, is like, yeah, this is really hard. And I've had to navigate a lot of these things that even feel fraudulent in order to find the treasure that's on the inside of it. [00:09:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think going through the motions sometimes when we don't feel it maybe is different, though, than performing or, you know, projecting something that we're not. Do you think it's a difference? I think it's a distinction in motive. If my motive is actually rotten to the core and I just want to be seen even by myself as the kind of person that is whatever. As opposed to, I really want to actually, because I care about you. And maybe I don't have those feelings right now, but I'm going to do all the things that express care. That's different than being like, hey everybody, watch as I, you know, it's the, maybe the trope or the meme of like the short term missions trip and you get your photo with the orphan and then you go back home and you show everybody the photo and you're like, wow, isn't that amazing? And I don't know, I think that mechanism can be at play in our faith. But that's different than saying, I don't feel this right now, but I know that I want to become that. And I think that's actually a more noble motivation. Yeah, that's really good. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Yeah. I think where they're. They feel too close to me is like really genuine interactions and things mean a lot to me. I'm very, I'm not as often concerned with is this, is this right or wrong? I'm often concerned with like, is it, does it feel real coming from the person? And so I feel sometimes fraudulent and manipulative and maybe like my motives are incorrect right at the start because it doesn't feel quite as natural. But that is a big difference in distinction. There is a motivation where I want this connectivity on the other side, not just to manipulate or get a result or be perceived a certain way. [00:11:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And if the conservative American church has oftentimes erred in their hyper focus on conversion, where every act of love is actually a bait and switch or a way in the door to then get to conversion, which is about as selfless as one company trying to steal customers from another company. [00:11:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Maybe it's for their good because you're like, well, my cell plan is way cheaper than theirs, so you're going to benefit if you come over to my team. But the motivation actually isn't love or selfless. If that's the maybe critique on the conservative American church, on the liberal American church, maybe it's more what we're talking about. I want to be the kind of person that is known to care for the sick or the poor. I want to look at myself and feel okay with myself because I am this kind of person that also kind of severs the care for the actual human. On the other side of that. And what Jesus does is he comes in and he just, he doesn't treat people as a means to an end. And he also doesn't do it so that he can become, you know, messiah material. Right. He's doing it. He's showing up fully embodied, incarnationally in lives. And what he does there is obviously you know, the model, but he's, he's pouring himself out for the sake of that person in front of him without an agenda. And I think it's really hard to do. [00:12:49] Speaker C: Yeah, I remember I've probably asked this question in multiple settings because it's, it's never seemed very realistic to me to pour yourself with or pour yourself out to that extent. As a almost 40 something year old woman, mom of two, full time job, et cetera, et cetera. Like, that seems like too big an ask Jesus. So I've asked the question multiple settings, like, but like, what does that look like today? You know, and feel like, oh, we gotta have boundaries and you know, it's where you're what you're called to do and your giftings and your leaning. But I asked that question of you two today because even as I say that, I'm like, yeah, that's a tough ask. And I think Jesus asks that of us. What would you say to that? Because it's like, my schedule's stupid crazy and I actually do have responsibilities that don't look like caring for others in the way that Jesus did necessarily. Do you know what I mean? What would you, what would you guys say to that? [00:13:48] Speaker B: I know what it feels like in the moment and I know when I'm not doing it. I think personally that can look like how I show up for my kids. I know it's selfish showing up, but in selfish ways with my kids, it's like, hey, kids, come do what I would prefer us to do together. Or something that requires less of me. Even though I know if I was really motivated, I would actually go further and have that conversation or be more present. I know what that feels like personally, I know what that feels like. I think in pastoral work, the appointments that I could easily say no to because they're a burden or they feel like less important and so to say yes to those seemingly inconsequential things or people, I know what it feels like in the moment when I'm having that meeting with the same person for the third time this month. And I know like, this is kind of a waste of my time would be the selfish feeling, but I know that's actually love. So I don't know what it looks like this afternoon, but I know when I'm not doing it and I know when I'm in the middle of it. What about you, Ben? [00:14:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:58] Speaker A: I've heard you say this is a waste of my time in the middle of those, but I'm gonna count this as love. [00:15:04] Speaker B: So, yeah, when you vocalize it, I don't know, does that change the effectiveness of what you're doing? [00:15:09] Speaker C: Maybe a little. [00:15:11] Speaker A: I am suspicious of myself all the time in this. I was thinking about when I got here. I got hired at Westside. I started working with young adults. I would give my Monday mornings, you guys remember, I would post on Instagram like, let's get coffee. And I would go to a coffee shop, and I just sit there and whoever showed up, spend three hours with whoever would walk in the door and buy him coffee, whatever. And I was like, oh, that's a really sweet time. [00:15:33] Speaker B: I should do that again. [00:15:34] Speaker A: I was like, no, I can't do that. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Sounds really hard. [00:15:39] Speaker A: And there was a little bit like, oh, Ben, come on, man. Like, what are you doing? Like, I get caught up in my head of like, oh, senior pastor now. And like, are you a corporate guy or are you like, you know, the dumbest stuff? And then I also think, you know, I. I coach a youth baseball team of 12 boys that. And this is very connected relationally. And like, the growing up piece of that. There's a real depth to those relationships. It's not directly me pastoring, and it doesn't necessarily come from. I'm trying to convert them into Christianity. Right. Or their families or anything that. And so where that fits always feels funny to me. But overall, something you said that I've been wrestling with a lot, I am concerned about kind of the pop psychology therapy speak of boundaries and understanding. That is. And I'd say this is somebody that goes to therapy. I've talked about a lot. I am concerned that we're becoming a bunch of people that use the word boundaries in the name of. I just don't want to do anything hard or have difficult tension relationships. I don't want to experience any stress. That is 100% not the way of Jesus. And I'm not saying that's what all therapists say or whatever. I could boilerplate that, but I don't want to become that people. And we certainly can't be that church that is like, there's just a group out there that we're just uncomfortable with and we can't engage with. And so I like how you say it, Evan. I think I know it when I'm there, and I even feel it over the course of a little league baseball season or something, where I go, this is just a time suck in the afternoon. I can't believe I'm out here again and it's 30 degrees. And then there's other times where I'm like, this might be the most deep, fulfilling work I can do with my whole life is teaching Barrett how to play left field, you know, or something like that. [00:17:26] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's, it's hard. And I think it's, it's good that you bring up baseball because no one, you know, no one is demanding that you do that. It's not required. It's not part of this job. I mean, you could say any community engagement is part of the job, whatever, but it's not. We know, like, when I'm on the clock and I'm taking a pastoral meeting, that's different than volunteering to go on a field and pour my time and energy into a bunch of 12 year olds and coaching them. It's very different. And maybe that's a good gauge. When something in you. I'm not trying to diagnose you. When something in you starts to say, I can't do anything unless it's absolutely required. Maybe that's the temperature check of when am I shutting down. Alyssa and I have an ongoing argument currently happening. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Good. [00:18:16] Speaker B: Where we're trying to. [00:18:17] Speaker A: Tasty. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Where we're trying to wrestle with what is it look like? Because she brought up some of the more meaningful ministry we did back in our youth days when I think you were just coming back around or maybe you weren't here yet, back from Albuquerque [00:18:31] Speaker C: and you were a youth pastor. Yeah. [00:18:34] Speaker B: But there was, it was, it was low stakes because of the role. And it was a very open, like, you know, kids were coming to our house and it was, it was a very community feeling season for us. And Clara was just a baby, so she would just come along for everything. And, and I think for Alyssa now in our role, now with me as senior pastor, it feels like we've actually shifted away from the ability to have that kind of low stakes casual interaction that looks like community. And even when it comes to like, oh, we should engage more with the staff outside of work hours, I'm like, well, we've got like 41 people, so if you invited them, plus families, that's a full event. Like, are we going to rent a park for our casual hangout? 100 people. And to which she would say, what are you talking about? Like, you're just trying to get out of hanging out. And I'm like, so we're wrestling with this idea of how do you, in different seasons, have pure motivations, not use title or position as an excuse to isolate, but also navigate the complexities of when you are in a role and it's a larger church and you've got. How do you manage expectations and not create unhealthy while you're trying to maybe recapture the magic of years gone by? I don't know. [00:19:51] Speaker A: Well, what's. [00:19:52] Speaker B: Side with me in the argument? [00:19:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well, you jumped on the. Is it the council for the police? [00:20:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:00] Speaker A: The police station, the police department. [00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah. The police chiefs. I mean, advisory council. [00:20:04] Speaker A: So I feel pretty selfless about coaching youth baseball. Also my kids on the team. You know, would I be there without him? Probably not. You don't have a dog in the fight a bend pd. Right. Like, you just decided to show. So what's that? What was that? [00:20:18] Speaker B: Motivation? Yeah, I think that. Yeah. And it takes way less energy than coaching little league. Trust me. It's like once a month, if I can make it. But I think that was. That was an intentional decision along the same lines of saying, like, no one is asking me to do this. I'm volunteering for this. But it's important that. That I'm saying yes to things that are outside of my comfort zone. I don't. You know, I'm not the schmoozy guy that wants to show up at all the stuff to be seen. But important that I know. Yeah, I'm still leaning in. I'm still saying yes. I'm still putting myself out there. And that's not. Apart from my pastoral calling. I think it is a health check for the pastoral calling, because we've seen it where, especially like, really successful pastors that start leaning into that. Like, I'm just a conference speaker now. I roll in and I preach, and then I fly off to do my next, you know, paid gig as a speaker. And you can just start seeing as guys will insulate themselves from actual tough relationship. It becomes the most unhealthy thing while having the veneer of a really successful, thriving ministry of church. And so we just got to keep doing stuff that I think pushes against that. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Do you have balance in this, Lindsay? [00:21:37] Speaker C: You do. I volunteer my time to coach. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker C: Young children. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Tell us how good you are. [00:21:43] Speaker C: Well, you guys are talking volleyball team. [00:21:46] Speaker B: That's good. [00:21:47] Speaker A: That's. [00:21:47] Speaker B: That's vulnerable. That's the honesty we want. You're performative in your interests, and you don't help anyone outside the job. [00:21:54] Speaker C: I couldn't find a darn thing I was performative in. Thank you very much. [00:21:58] Speaker A: Yeah, Jane told us how great you were. [00:22:00] Speaker C: And yes, no, I. I hear. Here's. So the original question was, like, how do you translate that command of Jesus and his example that he set for us? To just pour yourself out constantly into our modern, current day stupid busy, all the responsibilities, all the lives. Because the reality is he was a single man, you know, wandering town to town, which I don't mean to belittle his ministry, but it just looks different for us now. And so I get overwhelmed with, like, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, you know, take care of the widow and the orphan. Like, Jesus, how do I do all this? How do I pour myself out? And so I asked that question, and both of you answered in a really beautiful way because you brought it down to your individual contexts, which is so important to do. That's what we're called to do as we read Scripture. Like, what does this look like for me? What is. What does this ask of me? And it sounds like a little bit of discomfort, but also like an internal knowing, like, I know what God's asking me to do right now. And it's not always fun, and it's not always, you know, sometimes it's uncomfortable or painful or whatever. But for me, in this season, pouring myself out looks this. This way. And I also know that I need to do it more and keep leaning into this. I've brought this up before, but Richie Velottis has said that, like, every pastor needs to come in contact with suffering people and people in pain that are in their church or outside the four walls regularly to be effective in their ministry. And I think putting yourself out in the community is a part of that. And so it's a big philosophical question, but I think at the end of the day, like, what does this look like for Lindsey Parnell in 2026? And I think it's going to look different for me than for you and for you. And there's a piece in that. And they're like, okay, this isn't so overwhelming. I can do it. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but at least I know it's realistic. [00:23:59] Speaker A: I think Rich's barometer is spot on if you're not coming in touch with suffering people. The thing that I continue to wrestle with, and I think I've gotten more comfortable with, is what is suffering for people in Bend, Oregon, one of the wealthiest areas of the. You know, and so I used. Used to really feel like, huh, like the people that I talk to and they're having a hard time, things they're having a hard time with or nothing compared to whatever you want to throw out there from a big city or a different. And I've, I've gotten out of that mindset of, I don't know, like a desire for masochism or something. This needs to be harder, this needs to be more painful, like, and to just trust that God's put people in my periphery and in my office and in conversation with me. And it can be everything from feeling like a loss of an identity because of a job that they lost that, you know, for this ultra wealthy person, or it can be divorced, the loss of a kid or whatever. Like they're. The suffering is suffering. And I'm a lot less concerned with the shape or size that it kind of approaches me with, but then feel called to pastor it. However it comes to me. That is my job. Right then in that moment is the job. And yeah, God's been faithful to continue to bring those people into my life. [00:25:17] Speaker B: So I think you're being kind to put yourself in the same category as Lindsay and I, because, you know, and I'm not just trying to congratulate you, but, you know, you've opened your house to your parents moving in at great personal and group expense in a tough season, your dad's got health challenges. You're saying yes to, you know, coaching you and Rebecca together, she's given her whole career to working in ER and now mental health. I mean, crazy, crazy sharing of burdens with hurting people. So I do feel like just some of those life choices that you guys have made have put you in that suffering zone much more aggressively. And I don't want to speak for Lindsay, but, you know, I know Jesus, there's. I do think, I do think when I see some of those things in your life and I'm like, I don't know, you're around a lot of challenges that I would be hard pressed to say. Well, this is where I encounter that level of sharing of burdens outside of my 9 to 5 job. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I appreciate that acknowledgement. And actually that's a good example of maybe the question and the pushing, the tension that we feel, because there's been many times in that. And this is the argument that Rebecca and I have is we'll do this stuff. And then I'll go, I'm not quite sure we're doing everything we can. And she'll be like, how dare you? As I'm about to Collapse over here. If you add one more thing does. It's one more coffee on the Monday morning for everybody, you know, and she helps me balance in that way. But I think that tension is there. It's not necessarily bad if we're not shaming ourselves maybe into something else. [00:26:55] Speaker B: One concept I think you've talked a lot about, Ben, is our desire to personally curate all of our spaces until everything is really dialed. And I know that's a huge lure for me is away from uncurated, uncontrolled spaces, places and relationships. I like to know what I'm getting into, whether it be a conversation or, you know, if I got to walk into a space, I feel great. As long as I know that I'm going to be in control of that space or that service or that those uncontrolled places and spaces I tend to just naturally avoid. And I think the way of Jesus will actually just like launch us full bore into those uncontrolled spaces like Jesus walked his disciples into in the Gospels. And some of the, you know, like, I think of the. The demoniac and the Gerasenes. Right? Gerasenes, yeah. Where they cross over the river and it's just like. It's insane. Like, this man is wild and naked running at them. I would imagine those young disciples are like, what did we get ourselves into? Why are we following this guy? Well, I don't know. He just walked on the water, so he's. He's probably deserves our attention. And I feel like that's the kind of the scenario we get in following Jesus should be so shocking that we have to go back to why we're following Jesus in the first place. If it's so comfortable where we're like, of course. I mean, look at this office. This is amazing. I love following Jesus. It's probably not Jesus we're following, right? [00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you square that? Because I see this in both of you. I think you both like control more than I do. Yeah, very much so. [00:28:40] Speaker B: And maybe that's what I'm getting at. Again, not to. To put you on a pedestal and. No, no, lower us, but. Yeah, I do. [00:28:46] Speaker A: But how do. How do you guys square that with both of your ability to kind of take on challenges, though? Because I've seen that in both of you. To look at a situation and go, oh, kind of sink my teeth into this and we'll figure it out and kind of wrestle it to the ground. Both of you guys have that. So how does that square up with. With that desire to have control because clearly there's something in you, too, that doesn't mind entering into the chaos and finding fixes. Maybe the big difference between us isn't that I have less desire for control than you guys do. It's that you guys have a lot more tools once you get inside it, to actually fix it. And I'm just kind of like, well, [00:29:21] Speaker B: this is loud and fun. All right, give me a hug. [00:29:26] Speaker C: You. [00:29:27] Speaker A: All right, great. [00:29:28] Speaker B: Why, in my mind, did I imagine you on one of those pogo balls that people used to sit on at their desks? You know, you're just bouncing into the room on your giant exercise ball. I can jump in. I don't know why that's unusual. [00:29:41] Speaker C: I think we all have our own personal obstacles to get over. Yours might not be control, but it's something else. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:49] Speaker C: And I think self awareness is a. Is a big deal, and it's really important. And for me, you're talking. I'm like, oh, it's a thousand tiny deaths. Just like Evan brought up the other week. It's a thousand. Like, okay, yes, I'll do this. I'll do this little thing. Okay, yep. Next step. Yep. And it's not easy. And I hate chaos. I'm not like, oh, yeah, I can do that. It's like, okay. Oh, God, here we go. And I hope you know, so. It's. It's one of the crosses I bear. Like, you just have to die to that part of yourself. Be so aware of it and continue to say yes to the hard things. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And at my healthiest, entering into chaos is because Jesus is there and I'm surrendering something to go there in its most unhealthy. I go there to win because I can fix it. I love the challenge. I can fix it. And that maybe veers towards that obsession with conversion. It's that same kind of mentality of like, okay, yeah, yeah, I'll enter into your mess with you, because we're going to fix this, and I'm going to get you to fixed because that. That reflects something about me, or I want to be seen as the person that enters into chaos. So look at me as I selflessly go into this. And those are the two edges of this precipice that we want to fall in, that I want to fall into. But, yeah, to do it healthy is because I've surrendered something of my desire for control to follow Jesus into that really scary place that actually I'm very insecure about. I'm pretty secure. If it's a mess that I think I can fix. And, you know, I enjoy the feeling of when people think of me as a fixer. But to actually follow Jesus is very, I think, insecure. And that's where faith comes in. Right? [00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So I've been thinking about this since our conversation this morning, went over the outline of this healthy relationship series. How, how, how well do you think we, or let's say even other pastors in other places can do this thing? Even as we're talking about it, we're getting in the nitty gritty of our own personalities and experiences and trau and problems and goals. And we're talking about 1200 people on a Sunday morning that are going to come in and we're going to teach this. How well can we do this, talk about healthy relationships with something that feels so personal to everybody? [00:32:15] Speaker C: Hopefully, well, not well. Yeah, we did good. Yeah. I think this is one of those times where we, we do it together and we do it vulnerably and honestly. And we know that the desire of Jesus is for us to have whole healthy relationships and to love each other well. And so none of us are gonna sit here and say, like, now we got this figured out. All my relationships are so healthy. I would walk out of that church service like, I don't believe you. And so this is one of those times where it's like, no, we get to be authentic. We get to do this together and discover what Jesus has for us in this and share it not as experts, but as like, we're linked up arm in arm. We're doing this thing together and we're learning as we go, you know? [00:33:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And an awareness that in four weeks we're not going to fix people's relationships. But if at the end of this, we bring something of the heart of Jesus for wholeness in our relationships in a way that causes us all to self assess and consider and maybe have conversations around healthier relationships. That's probably the goal here. I think anytime you come in, you're like, hey, listen to me. And if you follow these steps, you're gonna have fixed relationships. You just either set yourself up for people not believing you, or God forbid, they do believe you and they follow your formula and it doesn't work, and then they're disillusioned. And so, you know, for over four weeks we can talk about the motive for what drives us to healthy relationships. The unseen and maybe things that we're unaware of that need to come to the surface so we can deal with them in healthy relationships. The tools that we have in showing up and listening and bringing our real selves, not our shadow selves and not a false self to our relationships. If those concepts can kind of maybe enter into people's minds where they haven't been thinking that way, hopefully that's beneficial to some marriages. Hopefully that's beneficial to some difficult parent, child or friendships or whatever that tension in relationships is. Because we know. We know this relational difficulty is everywhere. How many conversations we have every week, whether it be after a service or in our office or at coffee where people are struggling in relationships. And so I sure hope Jesus has something to say about it. Yeah. And we believe he does. [00:34:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:40] Speaker A: Is bringing people to the self assessment like you talked about, is that maybe the greatest goal that we can have to provide an environment where there's a level of sobriety and thoughtfulness to go, hmm, I wonder about myself or my path. Is that maybe the greatest goal that we can have in something like this? [00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And we. I think we didn't, you know, invent this stuff. A lot of what we're going to be drawing from is Scazzero's work, and self assessment is a lot of it identifying your self, which means also identifying your false self and what you're trying to be. We've been talking about that. But then, yeah. Especially I think in your week, next week, you'll be talking about what is the stuff that makes up who you are that you really actually never show. That's probably driving either your health and wholeness, relationships, or the things that are sabotaging them. Because if you just look at the surface and a lot of times out in public, you just get the service stuff. And it is interesting in a pastoral role because there might be a family that looks like they're doing great and you see them and like, hey, how you doing? And everyone's. And then actually you have a deeper conversation like, oh, things are not as they seem. And I think we probably all have levels of that in our own life and relationships. Yeah. But. [00:36:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What's the thing that you never show anything like that that's come out in your best relationships, maybe in marriage or friendships or with siblings or things like that? [00:36:15] Speaker B: Anything. [00:36:16] Speaker A: Over time, I've noticed the older I'm getting, the more those things just kind of have to either come out and be dealt with or be honest about. You know, I think it's been only over the last couple years that I've realized how much, how important it is for me to feel like a level of respect in a relationship and how deeply offended I get so quickly when I feel like I'm being disrespected. And that comes from a pretty toxic place for me, if I'm being completely honest. Is there anything for you guys that you've had where over time you've been like, oh, man, this thing, I kept it beneath the surface for quite a while and now you just can't anymore? [00:37:01] Speaker B: I've had to deal with that well, my performative interests. Yeah, I know. For me, I never want to express or deeply feel like I have needs in a relationship. I want to be needed above probably all else. And so, you know, play that out whether it be in relationship with Alyssa or my kids or friendships. Yeah, that's pretty. It's a one sided thing that actually, I think over time has created some emotional unhealth in me that I'm wrestling with. Like, how do I show up with my own relational needs while at the same time being able to offer something because I want? And you talked about, like, even crossing the street a few months ago. [00:37:54] Speaker A: So many people have you. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah, my people. Yeah. So if a driver, if a driver is coming and you're walking the dog and you're a pedestrian, even at a crosswalk, you'll act like you don't even want to cross because you don't want to bother them, you know, doing my [00:38:06] Speaker A: best to be like, nope, just using the sidewalk. [00:38:08] Speaker B: I don't need to cross. Turn the other way. Just looking at, you know, looking at the. With clouds over there and walk up [00:38:14] Speaker C: to the edge and go right back. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's very real. Maybe that's, maybe that's, you know, a lot of maybe men in relationships that want to feel like they're, you know, oh, I don't have any needs. I'm the provider or whatever. And it's just toxic masculinity or whatever you want to call it. But yeah, there's a lot of motives there that I'm like, what is that? Where I don't want to admit that I. I could possibly have any lack that needs somebody else. [00:38:39] Speaker A: How about you, Lindsay? I know you love outing yourself with your vulnerabilities. I know. [00:38:44] Speaker C: Vulnerability 101. [00:38:45] Speaker A: We're like trying to measure how much so worth it. [00:38:47] Speaker C: This is gonna be funny enough. That's my thing is I have a very hard time being vulnerable in relationships and showing if I'm hurting or feeling sad or, you know, those types of things, I have a very hard time showing. In fact, Jane and I, we've talked about this. This A lot because she's similar in some friendships. Like, we just have a hard time saying what we really think or feel. I'd rather keep it up here. Like, we don't need to go to the depths, like, oh, I don't want to do that. I want to, you know, let's all be happy, go lucky and. And, you know, be fine. We're all fine. So, yeah, I feel that in my marriage with Eric. I feel it in my friendships, very much so. And I think the older I get, the less tolerance there is for that. [00:39:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:34] Speaker C: In me, I see that's not the way. That's not the right way. That's not healthy relationships. How can I expect someone to be vulnerable with me if I can't be vulnerable with them? And so, yeah, that's been something that I've noticed probably over the past year, year and a half. That's. It's a thing. [00:39:54] Speaker A: I've been surprised how much age has affected that, what you just said. I think in my ignorance, there was this idea of, like, no, the more water under the bridge, the older we get, the more just kind of come to terms with, yeah, good job. That thing will stay in the depths for the rest of my life, and I don't have to worry about it, and I'll mature past it, maybe. And again, even as I say it out loud, I'm like, that's so stupid. And age is just kind of creating. I think it's whatever. Maybe it's that same thing that drives the old man out onto the deck and the robe to yell at the kids. You know, this, like, I just don't really care anymore, and I. I kind of am who I am thing. Maybe whatever that is is also, in a way, drawing out this, like, I don't think I can just hide this stuff anymore. I. I got to talk about it. And I hope I can learn how to do it in a. In a healthy way that isn't just reactionary and angry and bitter. [00:40:48] Speaker B: And that's probably the hope, as we get into the next four weeks, is that people that have resigned that they won't be able to change or that they won't ever dredge up and deal with the stuff that makes them struggle in relationships. Maybe there's that spark of, like, yeah, maybe I can change at 62 years old, maybe I can actually see something shift in my relationships. And that's a, you know, that takes a lot of faith. I think, you know, at all of our ages and stages of life, we could easily be resigned to like, oh, this is. It is what it is. You know, why spend the energy when I know it's probably not going to change? And I think the way of Jesus always compels us to not stop moving. Right. If we're not moving, we're actually not being discipled by Jesus. And so let's go. Let's let him change us. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Yeah. How do we access this kind of sweetness that can come with age? I think we've seen maybe people in our lives, some just get sweeter. I want to know what that is, that thing that opened them up as time went on, as opposed to the opposite, because we've seen a lot of that, too. Right. And I just. That's a mystery to me still at this age and stage in my life. How did you do that? How did you turn 60 and then got sweeter? That seems impossible, especially with maybe what you've been through or, you know, how you've thought about the world for a long time. There's something that's very Jesus in that idea to me. Sweetness with age. I'm sure we'll access that mystery in the next four weeks for sure. [00:42:29] Speaker B: Well, last week we had Jeanne Myri, who retired after 22 years. She's 80 years old, and I think she's a good example after 22 years running the front desk at a church where we know firsthand people yell at you and people are demanding help, and oftentimes it's high stress. And here's Jeanne at 80, and she just, you know, she loves Jesus and happy to show up all these years. And there's a real sweetness to that. And I don't know, maybe that was always her. She never had to overcome anything that would cause her to be any other way. But people like that always inspire me. Like, wow, I am not sitting by a phone, and every time it rings, you know, just. I don't know what I'm going to get. And somebody could be yelling at me, and I'm still going to be okay after that. I don't. I don't put myself in that position. And I can get really grumpy. It would be more like Jeannie. You know what I'm saying? She's so sweet. [00:43:29] Speaker A: I came up to her last day, and I. I think I fixed it quickly, but I was like, jeannie, you still here? You need to leave and never come back. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, Ben. [00:43:40] Speaker A: It was a joke. It her last day, and she, like, started crying. I came up, I gave her a big hug, and I know I made her Cry. [00:43:49] Speaker B: Her last day. [00:43:49] Speaker A: This sweet. I was like, oh, my gosh, I am. I'm not going to try to be funny anymore today. Je. [00:43:54] Speaker B: I'm so sorry. You're the greatest in the world. I think it was three minutes to two when technically she was done, and I said, okay, Jeie. We'd all said goodbye and, like, well, don't leave until two. We've still got you on the clock for three more minutes, you know, so we're both being very mean to her on her last day. [00:44:10] Speaker C: That's how you both cope with pain humor. [00:44:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I do deflect, deflect, deflect. [00:44:15] Speaker A: I like dark humor even in that way. [00:44:18] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Like, spent time with families, done several memorial services, funerals now. And there are always a couple, you know, widows or family members after the passing of someone, and they. That is their coping mechanism. They indulge in the dark humor a bit. And those are usually my favorite people. [00:44:40] Speaker B: West side Church, if we're not laughing, we're crying. [00:44:45] Speaker A: That's right. The home of dark humor, west side Church. You guys, when was the last time you overdid it at the gym [00:44:53] Speaker C: or physically segue? [00:44:55] Speaker A: I can. I made a stupid mistake on Friday and Saturday and overdid it, and I could barely. [00:45:00] Speaker B: Where are you feeling it? Legs. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, the hamstring. The butt, mostly. [00:45:04] Speaker C: Does it hurt to sit down? [00:45:05] Speaker A: Oh, everything. Sit down, stand up, going downstairs. We're on, like, day four of this thing, and I'm not sure I'm ever gonna recover at this point. You guys do that anymore? You get crazy sore. It's been a while for me. [00:45:17] Speaker C: It's happened to me probably twice in the past, like, four or five years. But the. The second day is always the worst day. [00:45:24] Speaker A: Second day. [00:45:25] Speaker C: Oh, man. Yeah. [00:45:27] Speaker B: I mean, go. It's going downstairs. That will tell you if you probably. If you did a proper workout. Right. Like, you should be feeling that going downstairs. [00:45:36] Speaker A: But then I just cope with potato chips and stuff like that, so it all cancels out. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Wait, are you rubbing the potato chips on your legs? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That vegetable oil. Good for the pores. [00:45:48] Speaker A: I love potato chips. [00:45:50] Speaker B: It's funny, I was telling somebody, we hiked. My. My dad took us up when I was, like, probably 7 years old. We hiked south, sister. And then we had to rush back for something that one of my brothers had to get back for. [00:46:01] Speaker A: You had to rush down. [00:46:02] Speaker B: Rush down. And so we came down the mountain so fast, it affected one of my knees for, like, the next 10 years. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Oh, my. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Gosh like if I tried to run, my knee would kind of give out. I'm like, that's a nasty injury for a seven year old. But that just the wear and tear on your knees when you're coming down a mountain fast. [00:46:22] Speaker A: Anytime I'm going down a trail like that, I'm anxious the whole time. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Time. [00:46:26] Speaker A: The slipping and the sliding and the [00:46:29] Speaker B: rocks and just the impact, the impact [00:46:31] Speaker A: on your knees when you're already tired. It is the worst. [00:46:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Did your dad play basketball? [00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Because I know we got some tall guys in my family that play basketball and then for the rest of their lives, like their knees and joints were just shot. I don't know. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Basketball's not great for the body at a certain age. You know, like really, you hit like 19, 20, and the, the it's hard floor. And so I'm see, I feel like we're seeing between pickleball and basketball, people pop their Achilles and hamstring stuff all the time. The quick change of direction on hard surfaces. Not great for you. Yeah. The knees, the quick jump stop. And those guys are already. These people, guys that are like 6, 9, 6, 8 already their joints are dealing with enough. And then you throw yourself around on a hard floor. [00:47:16] Speaker B: There's not a tall man's world. [00:47:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:18] Speaker B: You know, not great. Can't fit through doors, can't sit in cars. No shoes fit. Your joints are all messed up. [00:47:25] Speaker A: Yep. So sad because we got a lot of tall people in the church right now. Have you really clocked this? So many tall people. [00:47:30] Speaker C: Josiah Earwicker. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Six, six, eight, six, nine. [00:47:34] Speaker C: He's down. He's a leader for one of our kids camp groups. And he's taken up to the water fountain, like literally two. Just stack one on top of the other. [00:47:44] Speaker B: He's so tall. [00:47:45] Speaker C: But they're all like looking straight up at him like it's comedic. [00:47:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:49] Speaker C: This height difference is gonna take. [00:47:51] Speaker B: Whenever I'm in a room and you look short, Ben, I'm like, man, there's tall guys around because you're. Are you 6, 2, 6, 3? 6, 2, 6, 2. And sometimes you'll look like a little hobbit. Yeah. Next to these giants. [00:48:04] Speaker A: And all of these tall men love to hug. [00:48:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Which is terribly emasculating. [00:48:09] Speaker C: You. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Oh, I get to nestle my cheek in there. [00:48:12] Speaker B: They cradle you? [00:48:16] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:48:17] Speaker B: Why do they lift your feet off the ground? I don't understand. That's unnecessary. [00:48:21] Speaker A: That did happen to me the other day. [00:48:22] Speaker B: That is funny. I wonder if that's because you're a tall guy who intimidates a lot of people. If hugging becomes your go to. To, like, come off more. [00:48:31] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. [00:48:32] Speaker B: Disarming and open. Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:35] Speaker A: I try to disarm as often as possible. I have discovered that I worry a lot about being. Coming off as a bully. And I've never been a bully, but I've. I've learned that about myself recently. Is I will do anything and everything to try to disarm. Even the beginning of that idea, beginning in your head, which is a terribly codependent way to live. I don't know that really. I don't know how that came to my life, speaking in relationships and stuff, but that is it. [00:49:01] Speaker B: Because you just feel physically like people react to you like they would have bully because you're a big guy. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Maybe I've kind of taken in that because I've never. [00:49:09] Speaker B: All through high school, whatever. [00:49:10] Speaker A: I'm not. I've gotten into, like, a couple fights in my life. They were pretty tame. I wasn't the bully. I was the antagonist. I don't know. That's something I worry about all the time. I've discovered it's always on my radar. [00:49:22] Speaker C: Interesting. [00:49:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Funny, huh? [00:49:23] Speaker B: You feel like a bully, Lindsay? [00:49:26] Speaker C: No, I don't. [00:49:27] Speaker B: Your little sister's here. So, you know, if you want to admit she's the bully. [00:49:31] Speaker C: She just said she's the bully. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Fair enough. [00:49:35] Speaker C: You're not a bully. I can't imagine you're not a bully. [00:49:38] Speaker B: Yeah, we asked. We asked if she was nice to you, Jane. We didn't ask if you were nice. [00:49:42] Speaker C: We both have stories. We got some stories. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:44] Speaker C: But they were when we were young and silly. Developed. Yeah. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah. What is it, 20, like, 23. Before your frontal cortex is even, like, functioning. [00:49:57] Speaker A: 25 for guys. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:59] Speaker A: Well, we all. I got married at 22. [00:50:01] Speaker C: 21. [00:50:01] Speaker A: 21. [00:50:02] Speaker B: 21. [00:50:02] Speaker A: 21. [00:50:03] Speaker C: Yeah. We're down all right. We're down all right. [00:50:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I used to have a theory on, like, get married young or get married old. I think probably statistically, doesn't matter. Success rates are probably not dependent on the age. [00:50:16] Speaker A: It's all trade offs. [00:50:17] Speaker C: Right? [00:50:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:18] Speaker A: Like, we didn't have any money, which [00:50:20] Speaker B: is stressful, but you kind of have to figure it out together. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Kind of figure it out together. [00:50:25] Speaker B: Wait till you're, you know, your late 70s, and you pretty much already had your life, so. It's a weird way to end it.