Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message.
In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. That's Lindsey Parnell, and that's Evan Earwicker.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Hey, Ben.
[00:00:22] Speaker A: Hey.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Hi, Lindsay.
[00:00:23] Speaker C: Hello.
[00:00:24] Speaker A: I just learned that the video didn't work last week. Just now, in real time, right before we jumped on.
Yeah, I love that. The video is. Corrupted is the word. Why is it corrupted? Feels like a really extreme word for this. Didn't record.
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's in line with the total depravity doctrine.
[00:00:42] Speaker C: Right.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: It's very extreme language when it comes to the video not working.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: I mean, the video has a soul. Is that kind of what we're working with here?
[00:00:55] Speaker B: I don't know. I feel like we could go down this rabbit trail, but I don't think it's as funny as I think it could be. I don't know.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: There's got to be some other extreme words out there used to describe something that.
That we're not thinking of. Currently, Lindsay's got one right on the tip of her tongue.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Guys, I'm opting out of this conversation entirely.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: You're already opting out.
[00:01:14] Speaker C: Immediately. Feel free, you two.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Do videos have souls?
[00:01:22] Speaker A: It was in the World cup. They started giving. They would review fouls, and then they would come back and say it was a mistaken identity, and actually the foul would be on the other guy instead of the one that they gave it to. That one felt really extreme, too. A ref coming on. To me, this is a case of mistaken identity. Foul's actually number eight.
Very extreme.
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you guys enjoy the World cup this year?
Watch it.
[00:01:48] Speaker C: I didn't.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: You don't watch any?
[00:01:50] Speaker C: No.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Okay, great.
[00:01:51] Speaker C: I enjoyed the. The vibes. Everyone, like, loved it. It seemed to be very unifying. We had dinner downtown, and BBC was, you know that. The big screen.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:02] Speaker C: Outside. And just hundreds of people were there watching. Like, I loved that. That was so fun to witness. But, yeah, I didn't watch the energy.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: It's the festival, right?
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: Because I don't. I am convinced. Not that many people really like soccer very much. It's the festivity and the gathering and the watching of the national team, which is. I mean.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's changing, though. I think. I think the soccer is on the uptick culturally, as far as people actually enjoying it. Yeah. You know. Yeah.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Obviously, huge game. I enjoy watching. Soccer is not as enjoyable as a lot of the other sports. Just if I'm tapping into, like, the primal nature of myself and what keeps me engaged on the tv. And look, I'm a boring sport fan.
Baseball.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah. You're going to have to convince me that baseball's exciting.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Way more exciting. In soccer. I still contend.
I like, I like the boring sports. I like watching golf, all that kind of stuff. There's a lot of things that I still put in front of soccer, but this is for sure a special time every time we come here.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: What's the most objectively exciting game?
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Hockey. I mean, in person, it could be hockey. Hockey is great. Hockey's got the great sounds, the hitting the boards, the ice sounds, the sticks.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: The speed getting up and down from one end of your quarter, field or ice to the other. It happens so fast.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: I mean, basketball, fast paced, high scoring.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: Basketball's fun.
It's hard to get over whatever algorithm football has hacked. Like football knows how to make you watch it.
And you look at the statistics. Like there's actually a fair amount of time between plays. It's not the fastest pace.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Isn't the average of an NFL game is like three minutes of actual play.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: It's like crazy low.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: It's low. Yeah, it's not that low, but it's. It's low.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: It's.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: It's like 14 minutes or something like that overall.
And you're watching for three and a half hours now with all the ads and everything, like wild.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: And people love it.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Oh, eat it up, man. Love football. And it's still probably the most exciting thing to watch, which bothers me.
I'm just such a baseball guy, you know? But I love it. I love football. It sucks me in just like, just like that.
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I have a hard time paying attention period to screens. Yeah, I think. And I don't think that's like a thing I'm proud of. Like, I don't do screens.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: I would be.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: I love screens. I just can't pay attention for a long period to anything anymore. Like my brain just goes too many different directions.
[00:04:45] Speaker C: Anything you'd watch on a screen for a couple hours.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Unless I can get invested in a story quickly, I really struggle to care about the story or.
Yeah, movies are kind of the same because I don't do. I don't do movie theaters. Unless it's a really big movie like the Odyssey or, you know, one of these huge ones. And then when now everything you're just streaming at home, usually on a second screen in your hand, it's really hard to care.
I don't like this.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: This is not good about the thing on the screen and I have my phone at the same time and kind of need both.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah. It's the splintering of attention. I think it's really bad for our brain.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Where's the attention? Just that you want is. Because what I've noticed for me is that I don't necessarily have this want to, like, scroll Instagram.
I feel like somebody's going to communicate with me and I'm going to miss it, and then I'm going to feel bad. And so I like having the phone nearby for the team's message, for the whatever, you know?
[00:05:47] Speaker B: And yeah, it's. I mean, you're pulling the lever on the slot machine. Exactly. When I look this time, will there be a message for me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: And then it does pop open, and then I'll get lost on whatever and then I'll close it back up. But generally the phone being near me is like, somebody's gonna get mad if I don't see their message kind of a thing.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: This is not good. It's not good for our brains, our souls.
No. But the splintering of attention, that's real.
[00:06:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know about you guys, I really value focus. And if I'm working on something, I like to be really immersed in it and focused on it and not scattered. And now that probably just because of technology, everything feels scattered. It feels like a major loss.
[00:06:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
There's a whole book I had to read called Deep Focus, which. Where you set a timer, you lock
[00:06:45] Speaker A: yourself into it, and gave up.
[00:06:47] Speaker C: I didn't finish it, but, yeah, I
[00:06:49] Speaker B: was listening to the audiobook on that while I was scrolling on three times. Speed.
[00:06:53] Speaker C: No, but he's saying, like, the extreme lengths you have to go to to get any type of meaningful work done, and it's like a novel idea these days. Like the lengths that people have to go to to actually work on stuff. It's crazy.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Where are you still good at staying focused, though? Are there any places that are pretty natural? Like, I.
If I'm having conversations with people, I find it really, really easy to leave the phone behind or leave it in the pocket or whatever. No, Dan, what drives me crazy is that I'll just be in a couple meetings in a row. One, two hours, three hours. And then I look down, I'm like, I have 50 notifications.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Why is this.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: And then what I'll do is just open up the text messages and then close again and think maybe somebody will call something else on the other side. I do not have the patience to sift through however many notifications that there are at that point. It's their fault that they tried to contact me.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: Oh my gosh.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: Yeah, sure, some. Right.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: But I. When in conversation, I have no problem. I really enjoy long form conversation still. And it's not hard for me to stay focused, but that's one of the few places.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. Probably. Likewise when you're face to face with people, even like when we have meetings around a table, I'm pretty locked in. Except when I'm not sure. Typically I am. You know, you get where you're doing two things at once and then it fractures your attention again. But that's probably about the best shot I have other than like, if I'm researching or studying something. I usually do pretty good to focus on.
On that when I'm supposed to. But yeah, it's just hard.
Hard to not be open and say yes to all the things that are so well designed to get your attention.
We have no chance to fight the way that they've created these shiny notification buttons. I just want to see what is it? What is it? Who wants to talk to me.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Do you feel it when it's happening though?
Are you pretty aware when your focus is drifting?
[00:09:05] Speaker C: If I'm reading, yes, I get annoyed. Like I'll pull out my phone and look or whatever. And yeah, I get very annoyed with myself in those moments. But I think if we're in a meeting or something and I get a notification and I'm. I don't notice, I feel like, oh, I'm multitasking, I'm sure.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes it does feel like, oh, I can get that done.
[00:09:22] Speaker C: Well, yeah. Yeah,
[00:09:26] Speaker B: maybe. I shared this on this podcast.
I don't usually sleep with a watch on, but I went to bed and left my watch on. This is a couple months ago. And I get it goes off at like 2 in the morning.
And so it lights up. I don't even know how to set it in like sleep mode. Is there a sleep mode where it won't light up?
[00:09:44] Speaker C: There is, yeah.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: I don't know. It lights up, it buzzes. So I wake up. Alyssa wakes up, she's like, what's going on? I look at my watch and it's from Burger King and they've updated their privacy policy.
So stupid. Oh my gosh. What does the world come to? Like, yeah, definitely worth interrupting our sleep.
[00:10:08] Speaker C: When did you download the Burger King app?
[00:10:11] Speaker B: That was the thing. It's not like I'm, you know, every. Every morning get My Burger King. At some point I had a Burger King app and they, you know, they had my email, so they just wanted to let us know.
Privacy policy has changed.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: This is really urgent stuff.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: What kind of privacy invasion is even possible by Burger King? What do they know about us?
[00:10:32] Speaker A: I don't know. Everybody's got all the information, I guess.
But yeah, I think as long as we're getting annoyed, we haven't lost.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Right?
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Isn't that the trick? That if we can feel it a little bit and go, this is stupid, I should focus better. That always actually makes me feel better,
[00:10:47] Speaker B: ironically, that I got mad.
[00:10:49] Speaker C: If we're numb to it or don't see the problem with it.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's what scares me the most.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: I don't know though. I kind of give up in little ways and I feel like over time
[00:11:01] Speaker A: you and me are really showing ourselves out here. I'm like, yeah, you, you notify me enough. I just open your text and deliver.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: You're like, I've given up just in little ways, little deaths, you know, it's sad.
Oh man. You know, I did. I probably used a paper journal for five years really consistently until these AI tools have done such a better job at keeping track of things.
And I just gave up. I was like, these platforms are going to do a way better job at keeping track of what I'm doing and who I'm meeting with.
And it's far better. I think cognitively it's so much better to like write, not type, but write things down and you process better.
And I was just like, no, I guess not anymore. So I don't use a journal anymore.
What is happening?
[00:11:59] Speaker C: Like journal your life and stuff, that's fine. You know, I don't see the problem with that.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Well, and that's the thing. Like it all makes sense, it's logical. Like I don't need to spend my time physically writing my to do's down, but you move away from those things and then before long we're completely dependent on these machines or platforms or apps or subscriptions to function.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: When you say journaling, are you talking about like taking notes on your work or are you talking about journaling your life?
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Mostly like functional. Using a journal for functional, like making notes, making connections, writing lists down. Yeah, I've never been a big long form journal guy.
That feels really probably more tedious than I'm willing to put up with. Are you a journaler?
[00:12:49] Speaker C: I'm a morning pager.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:12:51] Speaker C: So I don't know, some people might think that's One of the same. But it's. It's a concept where it's like a stream of consciousness exercise, just like a brain dump. So I'm not journaling, like, my time with Jesus, you know, necessarily, but whatever comes to my mind in the morning, it's just like on the page. And I find that's very helpful with organizing my thoughts or like processing stuff.
But no, I moved away from like the Christian devotional journaling a long time ago because it just became very tedious and not productive or beneficial to me. It was just something I felt like I had to do.
So I did it. And I resented it and hated it so much.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: That never worked for me. The morning pages didn't work for me. I did that for like a couple months.
The high that people describe that they kind of get from it and I don't know, maybe you wouldn't call it a high.
It always happens in conversation. For me. It is, it's. I think I said earlier, like, long form conversation works for me. So, like, therapy works really, really well for me. The teaching team discussions that we have works really, really well for me. Like, campfires late into the evening work really well. Well, for me. I'm not sure what that is exactly. It's just kind of how my brain works. I remember just feeling being filled with dread. And I like writing about the. The kind of Christian journaling thing. I hated it. Like, really loathed and couldn't. Like, my stomach would hurt heading into it for whatever reason. Conversation is the thing. And that's. I listened to a lot of podcasts too. There's something about it that.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: That works and maybe that's the silver lining. You know, when you think about so many podcasts are like long, long form where you listen for hour and a half, two hours to a conversation pretty unfiltered. It's just people talking.
That's probably helpful to our attention spans to offset this kind of. Everything's a real Everything has to entertain me in 30 seconds and be the highest form of entertainment because we algorithm ourselves into. I just get the funniest or the most interesting or the most novel thing that happens in 15 seconds. And if it doesn't cut it, I'll just. I'll never see that again. And what that does to our brains is sketchy. Right. So maybe the long form conversations helps counteract that a little bit.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And then people listen to them on two times as fast. You know, the first time I heard of people doing that, by the way, you just made a joke about it right three times. Do you listen to things fast?
[00:15:24] Speaker C: I listen. I do 1.5. You guys, that's my sweet spot. Or, like, 1.35. Anything faster than that. I can't understand what you're saying.
[00:15:32] Speaker A: My ears, like, turn themselves into pretzels whenever I hear that. I can feel, every once in a while, accidentally hit. I think there's even 1.25. Right? Or something like that. And I.
I will, like, short circuit. I can't do it. I need to hear the natural rhythm.
[00:15:48] Speaker C: I can't do it at one. I can do nothing at one. I'm like, you are talking so slow.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Really?
[00:15:55] Speaker B: And if you try listening, you know, if you're listening to a sermon or listen to it at two for, like, five minutes and go back to one, and it sounds like everyone's, like, drunk or.
Or just, like, why can't you speak better than this? But it's just your ear changes. I'll listen to up to three. Three times. If it's for, like, for work. Like, I need to get through this chapter to prep for something.
If you. If you start at, like, two is easy to understand, at least.
[00:16:24] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: And then you just kind of edge up, your brain will kind of follow along, but not for leisure. Like, what's the point, you know?
Oh, I really wanted to read this book. I'm gonna listen to it three times.
[00:16:36] Speaker C: Three times crazy.
[00:16:37] Speaker B: Three times crazy.
[00:16:38] Speaker C: 1.3.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I still won't do one for most anything.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: You guys are monsters.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: I won.
[00:16:46] Speaker A: And then I go back five minutes to listen to a section that I remember hearing that I just want to hear again.
[00:16:53] Speaker B: If it's some podcasts, I will listen to it.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: 1.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: If it's, like, a group and it's you. You want to catch, like, the comedy or the dynamic.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like it's all dynamic, though. All of it is dynamic. Audiobooks are dynamic. Group podcasts are dynamic. Sports talk. It's all the dynamics for me. It's like, the camaraderie of being in the room.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Okay, well, sometime I'll join you in your rocking chair by your fire pit. We'll listen to 0.8 speed to all your favorite podcasts.
But in the meantime, everything that you
[00:17:23] Speaker A: just said out loud actually sounds lovely.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: In the meantime, I'm gonna be on two screens.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: I wonder if anybody listening can guess who the least efficient person is in this podcast right now. I wonder who that might be.
That's so funny.
And it's funny anything, like, productivity. Like, whenever people are like, oh, you Gotta read this new book. Have you listened? I'm always. I roll my eyes at the productivity guys.
That's probably speaks into a lot of these conversations.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Not the cross you bear. Productivity.
[00:17:56] Speaker A: Clearly not. Yeah, I wish I felt guilty about it, but, alas, he can't get me there.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Oh, that's really funny.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Anyway, this is about how shared leadership really works for me.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: It does.
By the way, you. We're gonna. We're meeting some people to go to a Timbers match this week in Portland. You were at a Timbers match against your beloved Sounders this weekend, and they played one of the worst matches in
[00:18:22] Speaker A: their franchise history ever seen in my life.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Explain what happened. It was insane.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: I mean, Portland had two fast guys that. So usually when you get to professional soccer. Yeah, just pure blinding speed only gets you so much. Like, obviously it's good, but in, like, college, you see guys just outrun.
And that's what happened, man. Like, Portland had two guys that are pretty fast, and Seattle was not ready to go. And these guys just outran them down the field, 5 to 1.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: 5 to 1.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: The final. Completely insane.
Is not good this year. And they just wiped the floor with Seattle. It was a disaster.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of big rivalry. Like, shocking to watch. I'm not even knowledgeable about soccer, and I was like, I feel like this is crazy. It was shock. How bad.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: Shocking to watch.
And, I mean, Portland looked good. Seattle legitimately look like they had never played a game together, ever.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: It's a big deal. Like, they bring out those huge, you know, banners that somebody hand makes before matches or whatever. And the Seattle one against Portland is always build a bonfire. You know, the idea that you're. You're burning the trees, which is great in the middle of the summer in the Northwest, but, yeah, so it's this whole song and dance and all the singing and. And boy, they just laid a big fat egg.
It was pretty crazy. Portland should be in great shape for the game that we're going to go
[00:19:43] Speaker B: to a couple days.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: When you go Dallas.
Dallas is usually good. I don't know if they're good right now, but.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll see.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Boy, oh, boy.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: They're probably feeling good after that. Sounders.
[00:19:53] Speaker A: They be feeling good.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. But, yeah, I missed. I missed Sunday.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: We were in James again.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: And that was all you. How'd it go?
[00:20:02] Speaker B: It was all me. Yeah. I'm.
I've enjoyed the last two weeks. As we talked about last week, we were in James one and a little bit of two. Talking about Faith in action. And then yesterday talked about the power of the tongue and the weight that our words carry. And yeah, I felt like it was well received. I shared a story at the end how coming back to Westside in 07 almost 20, 20 years ago, and how kind and generous Pastor Ken Johnson was to me and Alyssa and a note that he had written me. And so I brought that out. I have it framed, which I said was kind of cheesy, but deal with it.
But it was really special because Ken was there at the 9:30. He's not always there. He's got health challenges he's dealing with. But I was so happy to see him sitting there at the 9:30 and to be able to talk directly to him while telling that story. It was really deeply meaningful about the power and the weight that words carry and how I.
I look at that note hanging in our office bed as a reminder that there are people that need my words and they need your words and they need your words in their lives because of what God has for them is reliant at some level on the words that are spoken over people and to them that create life. And that was the effect that Ken's words had over me.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: I've been thinking about that since we just kind of walked up to the edge of that subject at the end of the podcast last week.
And I've been really rolling it around in my head a lot. I've had a hard time imagining myself as the note writer, so to speak, in. In your situation.
And I think there's pieces that. That are good. I don't make a lot of assumptions that I hold all this incredible weight over all these groups of people.
But that's a necessary challenge to overcome, especially for a leader, a leader in church, but just as a.
A person that's getting older and taking on these different areas of life.
And that. That's a tough little transition, which feels funny for me to think about considering how many messages I've preached from a platform into a microphone since I was 19 years old. And still I just don't see myself that way as often, not as nearly as often as I need to.
What a wonderful challenge. And I wonder when that clicked for Ken. You know, how we imagine Ken was that he was always this way and he knew his level of influence. I would imagine he walked through a similar road that we did. So I don't know what it'll take for me to totally kick into understanding that mode really well, but it's a worthy challenge for all of us. Especially in this room.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: I think you're saying yes to your words, weighing something. Even when you become licensed or ordained as a pastor, there are things that come with that calling and that I don't mean office, just in like a political or a career way, but in the truest sense of vocation.
It's bigger than just, you know, do I deserve for people to listen to me or does what I have to say so clever that people should listen?
There is a certain authority, I think, that you walk in and that you say yes to. And then it's kind of like on you to either use those words or to waste them.
So it's not a question of like, does Ben's words, do they matter? Yeah, they matter. The question is, does Ben know it enough to use those for life, for death, or just discard them and squander that? You know, because the weight's there, like it or not, you know, And I think that's part of my journey, like yours, Ben, is realizing that, like, there's no such thing as, as me saying something that doesn't matter at all. Which I think at some point in my life it was very true that what I said didn't matter to anybody at all. Maybe somebody, you know, maybe my mom cared, but, you know, like, but that's not the, the place we're in for any of us. And we have to, we have to realize that way. Otherwise we really, I think, damage people. And I've been guilty of that again and again of causing a lot of damage, because I undervalue the weight of my words and I assume that I can be flippant or overly sarcastic or biting with a comment for comedy or levity.
And it's like, oh, no, that matters a lot, you know, gotta be careful.
[00:24:30] Speaker C: I think there's. I think we're talking about two different things, actually, because you're talking about weight of words, using them for life or death. And you're talking about like speaking specifically being an encourager, like writing the note. And so I think one is like a coming of age and a maturing and a realization of like, we're the adults in the room, like it or not. And you're talking about this is a necessary piece of anybody who holds any type of leadership whatsoever to acknowledge, like, this is a non negotiable. But I think there's a way to be wise with our words and still hold back encouragement or like, just not even be aware of that type of weight because to be kind and careful with our words and then to See someone that was hurting and felt out of place in a Sunday service, and he sends you a note like, that is above and beyond. I think both are powerful and so important. But one feels like maybe the next step in leadership growth, pastoring, mentoring, you know, and it's a shifting stage of life, too. It just is, because we go from needing that and wanting them and feeling like we're the center of the story, the main character. And then one is acknowledging like, I'm. I'm not you. You know, I see you. I'm pouring into you. It's your moment to be encouraged and built up.
[00:25:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good.
Yeah. There's a difference between.
So you have to have a certain amount of.
I heard this from a professor when I was in college during a speech class who looked at me after I did a speech, and he said, you have a lot of ego.
And I was like, wow, that hurts my feelings.
He said, no, no, no, no. Ego in this context for me specifically means you have something to say and you feel like how you reach out to an audience.
You look to the audience and say, and I deserve to have you listen to me because of how I'm presenting this or how I've thought about this, whatever. That's ego. Good in that context.
But this is past. That authority is different even than I deserve to have you listen to me. It's. There's something.
There's some kind of wisdom that I believe exists inside of my words. And I think you were kind of talking about this, Evan, just a second ago, like the. That. That's a huge swing between.
I deserve for you to be quiet and hear me for the next 30 minutes to. I have something to impart to you, and I am taking this extremely seriously on this side. So you should take the listening piece very seriously. That's a different thing.
And I wonder if we. Maybe we all just don't take our words quite as seriously as we should. If I wrote a note to somebody right now like that, a la Pastor Ken, I would feel like they would read it and roll their eyes like, well, it was a little over the top. You probably could have just sent me a text message is how I imagine that being received. And that's probably.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Probably not the case. And I know, you know, I wasn't the one person that ever got a note from Ken. I'm sure he probably, knowing him, you know, very, very detailed, type A, he probably had a quota that. That he knew it mattered. And so I'm. I'm guessing. But he probably had 25 notes that he wrote every week that, you know, Gwen McIntosh sent out for him to. That was probably part of his practice as a pastor because there was an understanding of this actually matters a lot. This is one of the things that matters a ton in my role that really no one else can do for me. When I say something that calls out God's purpose in their future, it's going to create something and putting enough importance on that to where Pastor Ken in the heyday of this church, a lot of pressure on his time to take the time to write A note to 21 year old me welcoming me back to the church.
It just speaks to, I think, his understanding of the power of that.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:34] Speaker B: And we would do well to learn from that. And it maybe looks different, you know, 20 years later. Maybe it is texts or other. Yeah, maybe we just asked.
[00:28:43] Speaker C: Just kidding.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Ask Claude to send something on our behalf and it'll be super meaningful.
[00:28:49] Speaker C: I'm sorry I derailed that. It was a beautiful moment. I should have made the joke.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: No, it's, it's.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Text messages, phone calls and all that are really valuable. It's even just like seeing for me personally, myself as people did that all along the way. Like, I remember Coach Proc telling me that we're never going to get better at anything unless we're first honest with ourselves. Right. I remember Mrs. Burnett after I had a speech in honors English class, telling me that I should speak to audiences for the rest of my life. Like, I remember these moments like they're big, transformative, encouraging, challenging things and just I've never seen myself as the teacher or the coach for whatever reason, even though I teach and coach all the time. And so I guess that was what I'm trying to get over the last week of considering our conversation. Like, well then where the heck do I see myself?
Like, what am I then if I'm. I'm not Ms. Burnett or Coach Proc. And I'm. I'm also not 19 year old Ben anymore. Like, what is this funky in between? And all while saying very ironically, all of this in the middle of being a senior pastor and teaching like over a thousand people most weekends and all that kind of stuff. It's just a funny. I feel like I find myself in these positions a lot in this stage of growth in my life of like, well, if I'm not actually that, then where am I actually? And should I just take this more seriously?
More seriously is not the right word either. See, I can talk around this in circles all Day.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: Yeah, but if not now, when you're doing this stuff.
[00:30:19] Speaker A: Right?
[00:30:20] Speaker B: Then when, you know, when are we going to get to that point? Okay, now I'm a serious person now. I'm actually legit. And maybe that's just the natural imposter syndrome that I think most people in authority probably feel at some level. Or maybe they're sociopathic tendencies where you're like, no, I'm awesome. I was born for this. Of course I'm authority.
Yeah. Or narcissism or whatever that is.
But pushing through that, just straight imposter syndrome. I think there does come a point where you realize everyone who's come before me that has sat in seats of authority or innovation or how old was Shakespeare when he wrote hamlet? Probably like 10 years our junior.
Or fill in the blank. Anybody that in history has made crazy contributions to humanity historically, everyone died by the time they were 50. So it's not an age thing and it probably isn't an experience thing because we bring our own experience to this. So then it's got to be something else. It's got to be that whether it's insecurity or anxiety or fear of failure that I think we have to push through and realize, like, no, God can use me now with the tools that he's put in my hand in the role that I'm in.
And yeah, I always could be better. I always could perform whatever I'm called to do better. But there's no one else in the seat. Yeah. So step up, let's go.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: We push back. We push back, especially the three of us, against this, like, kind of man of God environment that we grew up in. Right. That there was this guy that led the church, and they were the ones that heard from God. And there was this very special particular. And maybe some of that is the reluctance that I have to totally embrace that is like, well, I don't want to be that.
There's so many things in my life that I go, well, I'm not going to do X because it kind of looks like, yeah, and that's a stupid way to lead and live anyway. You know, there's certainly a way to not. That comes up in therapy for me a lot where my therapist will just look at me and go, but you're not that. And I'll be like, well, yeah, but here's why I think I could look that way. It's like, well, just.
But you're not. So stop trying to convince the entire world that you are something while not being something that reminds them of just knock it off.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: And.
And that is maybe that's a lot of the response that those of us in that position have is like, I just want to make sure 15 times over that, you know, that I'm not trying to be this kind of a person. That is really upsetting for me specifically, and probably not even for you. There's so many people that I look at in church, and I go, you know, the trauma we all have. And they're like, nah, man, I can't relate.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: I'm new to all this. But do tell. Like, what are the horrible things you've experienced around here?
[00:33:17] Speaker A: Yeah, tell us the whole story around something that's not relatable to any of us.
[00:33:23] Speaker B: Yeah. No, it's real. And we protect people from the thing we're not because we are scared that we might become that. You know, it's like things that we go four levels deep into something that's not even an issue because we think people might think it might be an issue if we don't explicitly say that we're not that. And you end up, I think. And I fall into this trap of, whether it be in preaching or in leading, where it's like, you're fighting the shadow of something that was never true for you, or it was never true for this place, or it was never true for the congregation that's here.
But we've got to come out swinging against that. And I just think, well, no, let's lead people into this moment and what's next for us not apologizing for somebody else's message that we heard about, you know, because that's a real trap. And I think we do it in our personalities, Ben, from the stage, you and I, where we want to portray what we're not, maybe more than we want to portray who we are vulnerably, you know, and that's.
It's a cheap way to preach, I think. Well, I'm not that nice, huh?
[00:34:36] Speaker A: And that's what we hate about a lot of leaders that we've seen, right, Is they want to preach specifically about the thing that they are not or they don't like.
And to do that ourselves, That's a pretty convicting thing, too. It's not any better on the other side of the political spectrum or the other side of the church experience or whatever it is. It's still unhealthy leadership to lead in that way.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: And we walk. I think we walk a fine line between we don't want to preach only against what we don't like, and we also don't want to lean over into preaching things that are just absolutely not true of us.
So it's all aspirational. And Alyssa and I will talk about this. Like, you know, I'll talk about things that I want the church to be, that I've got a lot of room to grow into.
But I also know that some people in the church really want to be inspired to go do that thing because they're ready to go and they're better at that than I am. They're, you know, they're further in that spiritual practice or that. That ability to connect to the vulnerable or in outreach. I'm still working on that, but I don't want to only preach to my current state. Always. Yeah, you know, towards, like, ah, I can't. I can't talk about loving our neighbor until I figure that out first. So what are. What am I going to talk about if I can't talk about what I don't like, and I can't talk about why I'm not there yet? And so I do think there is some of that imposter syndrome that comes in. You're like, if I could only preach only vulnerably about my current experience today, that's a very narrow band. And I think there has to be room a little bit beyond that to, you know, to talk to the church out of the authority of the calling, the vocation more than just today. My lived experience is this. So come along with me without being phony, because we also don't want to do that where we're. We're not living what we're preaching.
[00:36:27] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: How do you deal with it? What do you do?
[00:36:30] Speaker C: I think that's where vision comes into play. And being a visionary, which I do think, at the bare minimum, you two are called to be that leading a church, not just what we're called to be now, but where we're called to go. I think that is expected. And I don't think anyone would fault either one of you for preaching on something that's not your strength.
And I think to say that vulnerably is impactful for a lot of people. But when you're talking, I'm like, well, yeah, that's where, like, the vision piece comes in. Like, here's who God has called us to be. Here's where we're all going together, you know, and there's freedom in that. It releases us from the pressure to have to be have arrived. Because that's silliness. None of us will ever get there.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: You know, so, yeah, the president of our denomination was speaking to a group of leaders that in Portland a few months ago. And one thing he said that stuck with me was there is this pressure as leaders in the church that you have to be, you know, the tip of the spear in literally every aspect of the Christian life to be a good leader.
So, you know, you got to be the hardest worshiper in the front of the room. You got to be the biggest giver and tither in the whole church. You got to be the. You know, you got to be doing devotions longer than anybody else. And he was just speaking to the exhaustion. That's inerrant. If that's your view of leadership, that we're the hero leader, that all you got to do is follow me exactly. And you'll get it all right. Because I do it all right.
And I think the willingness to be vulnerable in where we aren't the tip of the spear and then invite the church to come along and be the church with us, as opposed to saying, you want to know how to worship? Just watch me on Sunday morning. Let's go.
But I think a lot of people, a lot of guys, specifically in senior leadership. That's the view. And no wonder people burn out all the time, because if you got to show up 120% every single day where the church falls to pieces because they lose their cheerleader, we're just setting ourselves up for burnout or worse.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: That's my favorite part of shared leadership, is knowing that you guys are going to go grab the microphone and talk about things that I can't quite speak to. It makes me feel very comfortable in my own skin.
And then the other side of that coin is the challenge of, like. But I got to continue to push myself forward in these places that I feel like I could improve. And maybe it's just liturgies in my own life and practices or disciplines, or maybe it's just ways that I think about things. Both are true. I love the relaxed posture that I feel like I get to have as a result of working with people that are so much better at so many things than I am.
Yeah. While pushing myself. And hopefully the church feels that. So when I speak into those vacuums where I say, and this is where we're going, also, I'm really terrible at that.
I hope people feel activated to be those guys and. And women that. That enter into those different areas of life that I'm not necessarily good at. And then we're doing the church thing together, you know, it's. It's just a reminder that we all belong. And those strengths and gifts and talents mean a lot. You know, I heard somebody talking about anthropology, you know, was. Was talking about how the ADHD people certainly had a perfect belonging in these small tribes of 100 people for a long time because they were going to be the ones that were going to get bored and go find new food sources all around, you know, And I feel that, like, I hope there's that feeling within the church that it's not even just where we're weak in our own leadership, but where others and families and kind of pods and groups of people in our church feel like, well, that's. That one's kind of my responsibility to go out and accomplish that thing because I'm not gonna expect everyone to have that gift or talent.
[00:40:15] Speaker B: And I don't think actually leading together with that dynamic ever inspires us to be lazier in developing in those areas. You know, I don't go, oh, Ben's way better at these long form conversations in pastoral settings. So I never have to be. I watch you really loving that. And I go, yeah, I should get better at that. And I think in situations where people are leading solo or leading in a vacuum, you end up just stopping the stuff that you actually aren't comfortable with or don't like to do. And then you just create maybe a way of ministry that's only tailored to your strengths and you just kind of leave out the rest. Right. Naturally, that's what.
And this way, all the different ways that our staff or our volunteers, they're doing all these things in ways that I would never launch that ministry because that's not my strength, but it's part of us. And so now I go, oh, yeah. When I show up to serve day, I probably wouldn't have created this on my own, but now it's here and so I got to figure out how to really engage well with what's happening here, those kinds of things. So I do think it inspires us, the strengths of others to also develop. Right?
[00:41:33] Speaker A: Yeah, it's really, really good. Really good.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: So we're going to be. James, a couple more weeks here and then let's talk about what's coming after that. We're going to do an emotionally healthy relationship series, which we don't.
I don't think we've done a relationship topical series for a long time.
[00:41:52] Speaker C: It's been a long time.
[00:41:53] Speaker B: So we're going to kind of dive into this. I don't know how much we'll promote the book that we're working out of the series of books really, but we're going to be using some of Pete Scazzero's stuff, which has been around for a long time now, but really solid, emotionally healthy series of teaching and books on how to not be emotionally unhealthy, which is so common in marriages.
Parent, child relationships, work relationships. Emotional unhealth is maybe the norm in our day. So how do we have healthy relationships?
[00:42:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say that's the norm in church relationships because we over spiritualize everything, neglecting our emotional health and so we focus on spiritual aspects or whatnot and then our relationships are garbage or struggling. I'm so excited for this. I think everyone should read the book.
It's transformative and it puts appropriate emphasis on emotional health. And so I think it's. I'm excited to focus on it for a few weeks. It's gonna be great.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah, and you just said it, but I'll say it again, not just marriages, we're not just talking about romantic relationships.
That'll be a part of it. And it's interesting because I think a lot of people, whether you're in a marriage or a serious romantic relationship or not, there's a lot of curiosity in to that topic of conversation. But that certainly is, is only a piece of the overall relationship thing. And hopefully we can dig in deeper to what makes relationships tick. But even more than that, what makes them worthwhile, what makes them really connect with our soul in a way that makes life worth living? Yeah, because that's what it is. It's about these connections, relationships. And we all know that isolation is the worst form of punishment than any human can experience. So how to do these relationships really well, how to make them sustainable and Christ centered all at the same time is really going to be the, the trick of the series. We're going to bring in some professionals to add their voices to the conversation, which is going to be really exciting. We're doing a marriage class down the road which stay tuned for details on exactly when that's going to happen. But yeah, I mean this is in a really practical way outside of our, our theology and our purely spiritual lives. This connects that too. It's maybe the most practical thing that we can do to just live healthier lives, to invest in ourselves and relationships.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's such a felt need. I mean the amount of conversations that I'll have, you know, after a service on a Sunday that are rooted in people wanting healthier relationships, a lot of marriages, but a lot of estranged relationships with kids or this is the real stuff of life in community and just life. You know, how do we.
How do we have better, healthier, more flourishing relationships?
I think it starts with emotional health.
So, yeah, I'm excited about.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: Big increase in those conversations, by the way. I don't know if it's an increase in the actual things happening, estrangement from kids.
I've had several conversations with people whose siblings they feel like have gone down some kind of conspiracy or political rabbit hole and are now ultra radicalized about XYZ to the point where they can't even like communicate anymore.
I think we used to talk about how we just can't be in the same room over Christmas or whatever. This is like full on not making contact period anymore for a lot of people.
Yeah. So felt need. Cultural moment. Specifically. How do we continue to have relationships with the folks that we care about is. It's a big, big deal.
[00:45:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, that'll be in a few weeks.
Happy summer, you guys. We're in the middle of it now.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: We sure are.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: It smokes here. You know, we're in the middle of summer here.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: We're praying for. Praying for high school camp, I think. I think there's no fires nearby, but you know, the lightning in the forecast. I heard 75 new fires started this past week in central Oregon from lightning. When we were 75, we were in Seattle.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: The watch duty app just kept going nuts.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:01] Speaker A: Like, what's the even going to be? I had to kept checking it. It felt like bend was on fire in my mind. According to how many notifications, we got some in Redmond. Like in town.
[00:46:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: Crazy wild times. So pray for our firefighters. Pray for rain.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: Right?
