John 4-5

[00:00:03] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:19] Speaker B: I'm Evan Ehrwicker. And we're joined, as always, by our dear friend and coworker in the labor of this gospel. [00:00:28] Speaker C: You were talking for so long there, Lindsey Barnell. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Welcome. [00:00:31] Speaker A: Yay. Our dear friend. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Yep. [00:00:36] Speaker C: Did you mean to say co laborer closest? [00:00:38] Speaker B: Yeah. What did I say co worker in the labor? [00:00:41] Speaker C: Yes, he did. [00:00:42] Speaker A: I mean, laborer is a tough. [00:00:44] Speaker B: It's hard to get all the words right. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Yeah, you don't say laborer too often. Labor. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Ben, you missed it yesterday. You. You said in the host moment that when babies happen, people, the women's Bible study is good about caring for their moms. And then I did a whole opening rant about how babies don't just happen at the 9:30. And then I referenced. I said, and I know Ben's dad is in the room and maybe he needs to have a further conversation with Ben to explain how things work. [00:01:15] Speaker A: I did miss all of this. [00:01:16] Speaker B: You missed all of this. Which was sad because it was funny, but it got like a. Not even a big laugh. [00:01:22] Speaker C: I wasn't in the room. [00:01:23] Speaker B: You weren't in the room. [00:01:23] Speaker C: I would've chuckled loudly. [00:01:25] Speaker B: And it was probably my delivery wasn't on or people were just uncomfortable with the topic. [00:01:30] Speaker A: I don't know. That's so good. I feel like the delivery could be pretty mediocre and it would get a good laugh. [00:01:35] Speaker B: I don't know if people knew what to do. Cause it was right after, you know, it's the first thing I'm saying is like, do you guys know where babies come from? [00:01:41] Speaker A: Basically, I like that. [00:01:43] Speaker B: But it was such. I couldn't pass it up. I mean, when you say, well, you know, when babies happen. [00:01:48] Speaker A: Sure. [00:01:49] Speaker B: And then your dad's right there. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Should I have said when babies are born? Yeah, I guess. Right? Yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Well, that's what I said. I said babies don't just happen. They're born. And then I went into, sure, maybe your dad needs to talk with you. [00:02:01] Speaker A: Is there a big difference between born and happen? [00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a huge difference. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Happen seems like a usable substitute happened. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Just. It's like. Like you walk past the nursery and oh, my goodness, there's a baby. [00:02:15] Speaker A: There's a baby. Yeah, that makes sense. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Being born is a whole process. Yeah. Yeah. [00:02:19] Speaker A: Sorry I missed that. That would have been awesome. I was at the 8:15 in the 11. I missed the 9:30. [00:02:24] Speaker B: You just yeah, you set me up, and then you walked out, so it's good, though. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Do you guys love going to multiple services every Sunday, by the way? Is that one of your favorite parts of the job? [00:02:34] Speaker B: Is this a trap? Lindsay looked at me like I was. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Trying to get her. [00:02:39] Speaker C: Are you asking this for real? [00:02:40] Speaker B: Sure, why not? [00:02:42] Speaker A: It's one of those weird, niche things of our job. [00:02:45] Speaker C: Yeah. I watch one online in my office, and then I'll sit in on one. It helps break it up a little bit. I think just a change in atmosphere. [00:02:54] Speaker A: We all, like, need a relief. [00:02:56] Speaker B: I can do two for sure. Two is totally fine. If it's a week where I need to be in there for the whole service, for all three, it's a lot to sit. I'd rather be preaching than sitting. Listening. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Preaching three times. I mean, four times. Five times. [00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Like, sitting in the service three times. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Not my favorite. Well, and not just listening, because, like you, Lindsay, I could listen to all three. That's fine. But to be sitting in the front row in view of the whole room actively listening, by the third time, you're like, oh, my goodness, here again, it's. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Helpful to have each other in the room. I do kind of notice that I even look for you guys. I don't know why. To affirm a point or something like that. It's nice. It's comforting. Um, and then I feel instantly bad for you, thinking about how many times you've been in the service. So it's a complicated mix of emotions. I like watching it evolve, though, especially the teaching. I think all of us change a little bit over the course of the day. You made some big moves from the A15 compared to the rest of it, but it's. It's fun. And sometimes, I don't know, as a speaker, I feel like I just need to keep this fresh almost for me, and so something will get rearranged or talked about a little differently or a little longer, a little shorter. And I kind of like watching that happen in you guys, the changes that are made. So there's positives to it too. [00:04:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's probably more so for you and I, Ben. I know, Lindsay, you're pretty locked in by the time you step up there. You're not just trying to see what sticks as much as Ben and I tend to be at the first service. [00:04:35] Speaker C: That's the fruit of my greenness, because I'm still new to it, and so I need to feel 100% confident in what I'm saying from the moment I step foot on the stage, I write out my notes. It's word for word. Like, I type it out fully. Who knows that'll change the more seasoned I become, like you guys. [00:04:54] Speaker B: But yeah, the, the concepts have to be there for sure. If, if I think if any of us are going up there and really not knowing what we're saying, that's a huge problem. But like the order of things, how, like you're saying how much time to spend in certain areas, that changed a lot after the first time because you realize, like, oh, this is, this is really the heart of it. This is what's really connecting. And then you emphasize that more. I had a video clip. I showed a video clip from the Chosen, which I know sounds a little cliched, but I don't think we've done that. So I wanted to illustrate where we were at in John 5 with the healing by the pool of Bethesda. And I thought it was a beautiful scene in the TV show. And so I had it planned to show it in all services. Showed it at the first service. And I realized as I'm standing there on the stage watching it with the crowd, like, oh my goodness, four minutes is a really long time to watch a video in the middle of a sermon. It was just too long. If it was like a two minute clip, I think it would have been great, but it was too long. So I pulled it from the next two services. [00:05:50] Speaker A: As an audience member, I'm there to hear you. That sounds funny, but I am. Like, I show up to service on Sunday and Evan's preaching. I'm here to hear you. Your perspective, the study that you've done, the care that you've taken with the passage. And the clip's great. I didn't hurt anything at the 8:15. It seemed a little long and maybe not everybody's this way. I like hearing the teacher go through how they've even processed it. It's not even just about the text, but how they've gone about processing the text is valuable to me. And I, I just don't. [00:06:20] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:06:21] Speaker A: I don't love videos in. I don't love a lot of illustrations either though. And I feel like that's where I fall short. Like, like practical illustration stuff. Props. There was a season for that. I really like recoil against it, but I actually think it's a really effective way to communicate a point. So maybe I should open up a little bit more on that. [00:06:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I tend to lean away from videos and props like you. I think for the same reasons. It just. It kind of. It can feel like you're. You're putting a burden on people to decide if they think it's stupid or not. And we give them enough of that just by talking. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's right. [00:07:00] Speaker B: Then to see, like, do you like the puppet I brought up here on the stage? Do you think that's cool? [00:07:04] Speaker A: Is this helpful to you? [00:07:06] Speaker B: You know, I don't know. It's just one more thing that they can judge you for, you know, and judge the. You know, and decide it's not helpful. But I think sometimes it does make things more memorable. I mean, you know, I remember probably the most confident I've been in a prop. I don't do a lot of props, but when we're talking about the kingdom of God, I think in the book of Matthew and we're talking about the upside down kingdom, and I had this clear, like, tumbler, and I filled it with all these little different objects that represented people, like women and children at the bottom, or slaves, women and children, and then built up to, you know, army men and money at the top, and then flipped it, you know, so it was like this visual representation of what Jesus comes to do where he flips everything on its. On its head for the upside down kingdom. And I go back to, like, that one, because I don't do a lot of props. I'm like. I think that was a visual reminder of, like, this is what Jesus is always doing. He's flipping things, you know, so it's like, maybe it's useful, of course, but if we do props every week, then you got to come up with a prop. And a lot of times the sermon doesn't deserve a prop. It doesn't need a prop. But you're like, we're a prop church now, so we got to come up with a prop. [00:08:11] Speaker A: I did. I've done, like, maybe four in my whole time, and one that I liked was I stopped by the river on the way to church and got a mason jar full of water and was trying to describe the Holy Spirit and how God moves. And sometimes we have our one moment and experience, and it's kind of like getting water out of the river and then presenting it to somebody and saying, look, look, I have the river. It's like, well, not. No, that's not it. That's a jar of water. The river. Of course, this is a component that makes it up, and it was once in there. But that doesn't mean. Now that you've kind of cornered the market on the entire thing of how the spirit moves and how God moves, it's bigger and broader and more powerful than that. And I don't think anybody cared about the illustration because it seemed to fall really flat. And I really liked it for me, so that sometimes I'm wondering, like, I just think this is funny or cute or interesting or meaning meaningful, and it's just not. And I don't want to put the pressure on the audience to then kind of, like you said, like, have to, like, feel bad for me or look. [00:09:12] Speaker B: At me cringy or is that not cringy? [00:09:13] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Very good, Pastor. Like, I hate that feeling. I don't want to give him the opportunity to do that. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And then, you know, Pastor Ken Johnson was very memorable in his props, mostly around hunting props. He shot an arrow in the service down the aisle, and he fired a shotgun with a what? It was a round packed with confetti, but it was a live round. Amazing. Yeah. And he shot it in the room. I haven't heard that. Yeah, yeah. So very memorable. I don't know what the point was. [00:09:47] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. [00:09:48] Speaker B: But I remember the prop. What are the worst props we've ever seen? [00:09:52] Speaker A: I mean, a guy threw spears at my dad's church when I was growing up after they had built a new building and it was some kind of way of christening the new worship center. Put a hole in the dry wal. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Oh, like he actually threw a spear. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Oh, he threw a spear to the wall. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:10:09] Speaker A: Pretty good sized one behind the drummer there. [00:10:11] Speaker B: So champagne bottle on a ship and a spear through the wall at a church. [00:10:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, I can't remember how it was related. There was some kind of David thing, I think, in their vision. All I remember is the big hole in the drywall. That's it. [00:10:25] Speaker B: I always remember this wasn't a sermon prop, but I remember I was visiting a church a long ways away from here, and I'd never been in this church, but it was a small and very Pentecostal style church, and I was there to lead worship with their team. So I had their worship team, but I was leading it, and we would lead worship. And there was a man who had a shofar, like a ram's horn shofar in the church. And he was well known. He was a core member of the church. And what would happen is we'd be playing worship, singing, whatever the stand or whatever, and then at any time he decided it was time to blow the shofar. He would blow the shofar Fire. And in response to the shofar, the band that I was supposed to be leading would just take off. So they would speed up and they would get really loud as, like, a response to the shofar. So no matter what song we were doing, and this would happen, like, once a set in the middle of worship, and then it'd be like, I'll stand with arms high. [00:11:24] Speaker A: And then they keep playing. [00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah, they keep playing the song, but they would speed it up and, like, turn it into a march and, like, get crazy loud. And everyone would like. I was like, where am I? [00:11:33] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:11:34] Speaker B: I would just lose control of the entire band, the room. Because shofar man decided it was time. It was fascinating how calculated that guy. [00:11:42] Speaker A: He's sitting around there and he's looking at you, you know, about to blow on this thing. [00:11:46] Speaker B: I mean, mad respect, bro. Just take over. [00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah, he's running the show. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:11:51] Speaker A: Shofar man. No shofars in worship. Lindsay. I don't understand why. [00:11:54] Speaker C: No, you don't understand why we had someone bring, like, tambour. Tambourines, and they'd play those in the back. I think we had to ask them to stop, though, because it was pretty distracting. [00:12:04] Speaker A: It's a bummer because a tambourine can be kind of fun when brought in as, like, a percussionist, you know? [00:12:10] Speaker C: And there's nice worship team member flavor. Yeah, totally. [00:12:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Person holding it, shaking. It has never worked out. Drummer that can, like, hit one once or twice. That's kind of nice. [00:12:22] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah, I like it. [00:12:23] Speaker B: But, yeah. Just to have people who just show up and decide on their own that they're going to be loud enough to where the whole room can hear and see, you know, like, that's just not how it works. [00:12:34] Speaker A: We had. We had three people in church growing up. When I became. I became a drummer for the worship team at, like, 9 years old, and there were three people, or tambourine lady. And then there was. What was it, like, fish guy that wouldn't kind of a thing. And then there was another thing in the room. Oh, it was just like maracas or something like that. There were three people that were just going rogue. And I think we finally had to have conversations after, like, years. My dad's not a very confrontational guy. [00:13:03] Speaker B: That's amazing. Sweet man. And he. I guess he doesn't have hard conversations because clearly. Yeah. You know, birds and the bees. Birds and the bees. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. So we're in. John. I've really loved this. Ben. I like the gospel of John as a preacher. I think seeing the craft that goes into what John was doing, the seven signs and the seven IMs and the way that he is is, is not like Luke, you know, like laying down the case for why Jesus. He's doing it in such a, like a prophetic. He's a write, he's a poet, he's a writer who's, who's making this case for Christ as the Messiah. And it's beautiful and it's so fun. [00:13:50] Speaker A: To preach and it's kind of the other side of the. I only have so much space and time to communicate. This is it Mark that's really fast paced. Is that the one we talk about? Everybody's just bam, bam, bam. And immediately. And immediately this is the same thing to me but different. It's like John in a beautiful way is. I can almost be picture him frantically trying to communicate this deeper truth. You know, Mark is trying to communicate. Here's the timelines and the details and you got to know that this happened historical events. And John is almost frantically like. And here's how deep Jesus loves. And you, you have to know I'm even going to rearrange. I'm going to bend over backwards. I'm going to do all this stuff to try to get you into the different dimensions of what Jesus came for. So there is almost. I'm. I'm actually feeling more of an urgency as we get along. It's almost like John is like, you just have to get this. I need you to get this and I'll tell you poetry or tell you stories or however we're going to get there. I got to get you there. And it's sweet. [00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's that tone I think in chapter 20 at the very end where he lays out the whole point of the book, which is Jesus did so many more signs in front of his disciples. The reason I've included these is that you would come to believe that Jesus is the son of God and Messiah. So he's just laying it out there like it is this urgency. And I quoted from 1 John 1, 1 yesterday where he's basically expressing both in his letters and in his Gospel. This is why we have to tell you because our joy is so overwhelming because of what we've seen and heard and touched with our hands. We have to share this with you. And I just love that this isn't rote religious writings of some guy who's spent his time just thinking all the he's lived a life that has compelled him to share what he's seen. And I think that's really. [00:15:45] Speaker A: I love you so much that I'm gonna connect all the dots along the way. Just read this and pay a little bit of attention and I'm gonna give you all these details and the numbers meaningful and they connect to Old Testament stories. And there's a little bit of like that old Tolkien Lewis dynamic where everybody's like, well, Tolkien wrote this story and it's important to him and what you gather out of it is to you. And Lewis is like, this is allegory. [00:16:08] Speaker B: Because I love Jesus. [00:16:11] Speaker A: And obviously both of them are gospels. [00:16:13] Speaker B: Plan is Jesus to was probably so annoyed. I bet he was like, clive, why you got to do it, Clive? [00:16:23] Speaker A: You're so earnest about everything. Just let people read, for God's sake. [00:16:28] Speaker B: I know, I know CS Lewis went by the name Jack, but I like to think of his friends calling him Clive when they're annoyed. [00:16:33] Speaker A: For sure. For sure they did. And John's doing that. You know, he's very. CS Lewis. Like, this is going to be really on the nose. I'm going to connect all those dots for you because I don't want there to be any questioning or mistaking. Obviously Matthew, Mark, Luke, they want to do the same thing too, but the effort seems to be just that much more so. [00:16:54] Speaker B: Well, and it's not long after the lifespan of the first apostles that Christianity starts to splinter. And you've got Gnostics who think like, Jesus is more of a spiritual figure than he was ever a literal physical person or body and we should be just spiritually separate from this physical body to be pure. It was all these theories. And so because John's writing late in life, I think that on the nose thing is speaking to some of the beginnings of kind of these heresies and these beliefs that are taking people away from understanding the divinity and humanity of Christ together. And so John, I think, is maybe pushing back on some of these things that are sprouting up that probably he's seen as like, whoa, this is going to take you from the person I know, which is Jesus, the son of God, Messiah. [00:17:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I hadn't thought about it that way before. That's super interesting. We should talk about that on Sunday. Maybe you should have done it already. And it just shows you the human nature element of it, too. This happens fast, the disconnect. And there are many days we've talked a lot about politics and nationalism and stuff. And I think you and I share the opinion that we look at so much of the movement of Modern Christianity in so many places, not every place. And go, how could this happen? It just seems so clearly not Jesus. But then you talk about a story like that where you're like, yeah. And a handful of years later, John is still alive, and he's already seeing the story and the narrative pull away from what he believes to be the truth about Jesus. And that's alarming to him. And then all of a sudden, I have a lot more grace for a couple thousand years later. [00:18:41] Speaker B: Of course. [00:18:42] Speaker A: Of course we've gotten so far off track or we've decided that Jesus is something that he's not. [00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's still echoes of the same heresies or the ways that we go wrong. I think about even this desire for secret knowledge that nobody else knows. And I think this plagues charismatic and Pentecostal movements, of which our denomination is one of those movements. And so there's a danger anytime you really lean into the work of the Spirit is that you start to become obsessed with, like, what I know that no one else knows. What is the secret that only I'm going to hear? And that becomes this obsession that looks a lot like Gnosticism in the first century, second century. We need to look up when Gnosticism rose. But it's like, what is driving this fascination with conspiracy theories in the world today among Christian people? Well, it's this desire for secret knowledge that sets me apart from normal people. That is so far from the gospel of Jesus, which is this embodiment and this incarnation into humanity to transform it. Not. I'm going to separate myself out and know what no one else knows. That is such a false gospel. And I think it crops up even today, so far away from, you know, what. What happened in the early, early church. [00:20:02] Speaker A: I want to have an explanation that tells me about the world, and it also makes me feel special at the same time. And that can kind of become its own religion. Right. And that's what was all. There's so many of the conspiracy theories, QAnon and all these things that have happened even recently that I can't remember if we talked about on this podcast or not. [00:20:20] Speaker B: But. [00:20:21] Speaker A: But I was looking at some statistics. People that were Openly participating in QAnon. So many had lost their jobs recently, had a divorce, major life events. And a lot of psychologists are talking about, like, they wanted to feel connected to something in community, and they wanted to feel like they had an explanation for why things had gone wrong in their life. And call. Can I empathize with that? You know, so many conspiracy Theories I just scoff at and I consider the motivations for people getting in them and I go, oh my gosh. I share that insecurity and that frustration with life and feeling like the world is against you sometimes times. But ultimately, if we fall in love with this kind of treasure hunting version of the gospel, you veer so far off. It's the, it's a Da Vinci Code version of whatever we're. You know, I watched those couple movies recently and I remember they caused such an uproar in church. People were so mad you guys didn't watch movies. [00:21:12] Speaker C: They're not that good here. Called like Cracking the Da Vinci Code. [00:21:16] Speaker B: They're just fine. [00:21:17] Speaker A: They're not good enough to convince anybody of anything. Like Tom Hanks isn't even that good. I watched them way back when. I can't remember why. I'd recently rewatched them just for kicks and they're like Indiana Jones. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:30] Speaker A: That's all it is. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's like paperback fiction, right? [00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah, who cares? But there's a piece of like, if we look through this code well enough, then we can feel special, like we've got insider information. And yeah, you're right. John is laying the gospel out and saying this is what it is. [00:21:46] Speaker B: And, and, and that motivation that says I'm going to withdraw from my life because it's too hard and live in this space where I'm important and I'm powerful and I have all this knowledge because I can't handle reality. I think a lot of times that's what you see with people withdrawing from the just mundane, hard, real life. And John would speak directly to that in his letters and his gospel and say, no, you don't get to withdraw from that because Christ has come close and so little children love one another and you know, when the world is filled with trouble, we take courage and we're not afraid because he's overcome it, you know, and so it's like this. No, you stay immersed, you stay embodied. You stay with your feet on the ground and you stay in the stuff. Yeah. Because Jesus is going to meet you there. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And a modern version. And I'm not, I've read the book and it's, I don't think it's bad at all, by the way. I'm not talk about this, but have you guys read the let them theory? It's kind of pop psychology. A lot of people reading it right now. [00:22:46] Speaker B: It's, it's good, it's. [00:22:47] Speaker A: It's good and it talks a lot about acceptance and. But for me, it felt incomplete because it kind of draws you this conclusion that you can find a lot of personal health in understanding that other people are going to have their thoughts and opinions about things and about you, and you're going to have your thoughts and opinions about that. And this is a. My own incomplete version of what an incomplete, I think is an incomplete book. Where it falls short to me is. And we have to be embodied and we have to remain in the stuff. I don't like this idea that we can be drawn to this ideology that while we're working through traumas and difficulties or whatever, still leaves us parallel to one another and not perpendicular. We have to intersect, we have to be with each other. If boundaries leads us to isolation, then we're completely missing it. And we don't just get to run off into these different sects and different theology and these different whatever and forget that we're made to be in community together and ultimately draw near to each other around the Gospel of Jesus. And yeah, like even as you're talking about, that's just even more compelling for this gospel that John is like, no, don't do that. Resist the temptation that isn't about maybe what you think is traditional sin, but resist the temptation to create yourself as the center of your universe or even Jesus, not as the center of you, but you as the center of the universe of Jesus. And that discipleship and that theology. [00:24:07] Speaker B: Right, right. That my faith is all about my personal salvation, my personal transformation. Well, we have to keep the center on the center, which is Christ. And so we all exist orbiting around to speak of the Da Vinci Code. There's a lot of orbiting things in that one, if I remember right. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Yeah, so many wild ones too. [00:24:32] Speaker B: But no, we all orbit around Christ is in all and is all and is our all in all. So to make it about me and like, I'm so glad Jesus came for me. Yeah, that's true. But our faith is not about my spiritual needs. It's about finding myself wrapped up and hidden in Christ, which means I kind of like dissolve into the stuff of Jesus, you know, in all things. And if that sounds like woo woo or something, and I mean it in the most orthodox way, Christianity has always been about this, that we worship Christ and that he is the thing that Philippians 2, he is at the center of all this. And it's because of what he's done, not because of my brilliant choice to find him, to get saved, that I'm in this. It's because of Him. And so some of these things feel nuanced, but if we get them wrong, will go so far off of the whole point. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Do we miss being hidden in Christ? For a lot of the reasons that are referenced in the story that you look through on Sunday in that, like the religious leaders because we expect the Messiah to come and fulfill this specific structure that we've built. We miss the miracle because it's. And then we're going to talk about next week too, that the non religious leaders also miss Jesus because they just wanted a sign and a general in the field of battle. Right. Do we miss it because of that? [00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Well. And I think we could spend a whole series on just John 5 on this miracle because of all the ways that people are finding or placing their hope or their trust or their reliance on things that are not Jesus. And it starts with the man at the pool, you know, all these sick people that are putting their hope in this superstition. We do the same thing. We sit around the pools of religion and our structures and we hope that they're going to save us. And none of them do. It has to be the presence of Jesus. Right? So you have the sick and the unwell that are putting their faith in the wrong thing. You have the religious leaders that are putting their faith in the wrong structures all the way through the temple. And we just see example after example after example of what lesser hope has done to people. And then Jesus comes in and he's like so offensive to the existing structures because he's coming to bring something new and something better that fulfills the hope of all those structures that they just couldn't hold up under. [00:27:15] Speaker A: And wild we could be so dug in that Jesus heals a paralytic in their midst. And they're like, I'm gonna write you a ticket. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:23] Speaker A: It's like somebody speeding to get to the birth of their child at a hospital and the cop pulling them over, you know, and reading, oh, the happening of their child at a hospital. [00:27:34] Speaker B: You know, it's like, what, what are we talking about? [00:27:38] Speaker A: There's a huge moment. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Handcuff the mom. Yeah, yeah. No, that's how ridiculous it is. And it shows you the absurdity of when our theology or our religion gets put above Jesus. And we do it all the time. All the time. [00:27:55] Speaker A: You did a good job of talking about that. There weren't just 36 rules, there were 36 categories of rules. And the fascination that we have with creating these booklets for ourselves. And I almost imagine as you were talking about it, These scribes and Pharisees just having so much time on their hands and throwing around the next rule to each other in the room to roll out to everybody. And the motivation behind that, Sometimes I'm like, wow, we're so bored with, like, the real work, the good stuff that we like. Things that maybe are harmless or silly or destructive, obviously. And then we completely bypass the real work. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. I mean, it's the result of any organization. You give enough time to any organization, and they're going to come up with enough systems to drive anybody crazy. Right. I mean, Justin's here. You oversee all of our systems here and drive us crazy every year. You know, there's a story behind every rule or every system, and you're not a rules guy, but there's a reason for these things. You know, somebody got in trouble or was late to Shabbat supper because they were hauling a sack of flour. So somebody was like, you know what? When you put that in the rules, you can't carry flour on the Sabbath. And then after, you know, 800 years, look where they're at. And I just feel like when you talk about walking into the church in Laodicea and seeing all the rules that they had, oh, man, it just represents. You give. Give people enough time and they're going to create books and books and books of policies and systems, and unless someone comes with the courage to tear those down like Jesus did, people will just drown in it. Right. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And we even have that stuff around here, and it's not around religious practices always, but any organization. Well, what happens if the worst case scenario happens? What happens if. I think one time somebody asked me, like, well, what if someone drives a car through the front door of that? I'm like, well, I don't. How do we do? We're gonna have a policy for that. [00:29:56] Speaker B: How do you make a rule? [00:29:57] Speaker A: You know, if this happens, then this. And that's just a wild one. And I don't know how to prevent all of that. And yet still. Yeah, I've given enough time. You'll put enough laminated signs, Right. I always get concerned walking into places where I'm going, wow, there's a story behind every one of these laminated signs about the toilet paper or the lightning to be left on or whatever. So many things. And it's just such. I think my concern is that we seem to welcome that distraction. Like, we almost like it because it's this little security blanket that we can hold on and control over here. Because the real stuff's hard. It's just like real pastoring in the wild with people's real needs and, and our own real needs. Managing that is just way harder than managing an organization in a. Not harder. I don't want to disrespect anybody else's grind out there, but, you know, like, I think pastors fall for this, I guess, is what I'm saying too. And we just say, no, I'm going to fall in love with the organizational pieces of it. Because the messiness of humanity is too hard. [00:30:57] Speaker B: Right. And it is hard. And I think that's what makes Jesus so much more compelling than the Pharisees. The Pharisees are successful and effective in what they're doing. I mean, they're upholding the religious cultural values and systems for generations and generations and centuries. And that's not to be dismissed or belittled. But what Jesus comes and does is something that looks nothing like that. And he sets the world on fire. I mean, look at what's happened from this no name, obscure rabbi from nowheresville in the Roman Empire. But what he does in the messiness of that, like his disciples and then what they launch and the church and it's craz, messy, crazy messy. And yet it's compelling enough that it just doesn't stop growing to this day. And wow, what an amazing thing. And it's a reminder for us as leaders anytime we want to veer into, like, best practices and we're going to systemize this thing until we are so effective and we raise so much money and we're going to get our staff so efficient. Maybe that's not the whole point. That's pieces of it. Sure. We don't want poorly run churches. There's enough of those. But if that's the point, I think maybe we've edged Jesus out of the mix. Yeah. [00:32:24] Speaker A: Lindsay, do you think we get distracted by the real work? How do we do that? [00:32:29] Speaker C: You think get distracted so we don't have to do the real work, you mean? [00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, you guys just named a million different ways. I think you've done a good job. I think of the numbing out. Like that's where my mind goes. I'm a comfort girly. I love comfort. I don't like to feel cold. I don't like to feel hot. I want to be just right. So for me, it's going to be like binge watching a show. Things where I can think of something different so I don't have to feel discomfort. But I think discomfort is where growth often Happens. And I think our tendency, it's our human nature, to move away from things that are painful, confusing, that feel out of control. And so we're like rats in a cage just going to the next thing to get our mind off whatever it may be. And if we stay on the mat, if we stay with it, that is the real work, actually. It's paying attention to those areas where we have tension, discomfort, dissonance, questions. I'm really leaning into that work, but it is hard and it hurts, and it also sucks. There was a saying in my master's program, like, hug the cactus. Like, you just gotta lean into it because there's no way around this. When we skirt around it, we're not actually doing the work or paying attention to the work. [00:33:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's a good way to. I, like, hug the cactus when I adopt that. [00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:03] Speaker A: And that's the. Again, no shade to the Let them. People actually appreciate a lot of the book. Look, I just. I'm so afraid of a culture and especially a faith that is like, no healthy boundaries, which I agree with. But healthy boundaries doesn't always. It keeps us from hugging the cactus. I think it can keep us. It can be a crutch that keeps us from this discomfort that Jesus seems to so readily walk into. Like, again and again and again and again. These Pharisees are hunting him, and he's on the other side. He's with difficult people that you described. The environment that was by this pool probably smelled horrific. And people with all kinds of maladies and suffering. And just to continue to walk into these places in all kinds of ways is. It just takes so much work. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And the acceptance of Christ is profound. And yet he's always asking people to step out of where they're at into something new. It's never a healing until Jesus invites them out of not only their ailment, but out of. Of whatever that ailment had brought them to. You know, like, and I talked about this yesterday, but, like, you know, you can't just get your legs back. You have to realize that this is going to come with a new home address. Like, you're going to move out of this place. And oftentimes it's our brokenness that we find the most familiarity in. And so as much as it seems illogical, we do it all the time where the most broken places in our lives and some of the most obvious are, you know, intense addictions or whatever. But it also can be toxic relationship cycles where we just kind of go to the same Thing we know it's not good, but it kind of makes us feel at home. And so we live there. And when we encounter Christ, he's always saying, like, do you want to be made? Well, do you want to step out of this? I have the power to do this. I can heal you. But you have to be willing to say yes to that healing and walk out of this place with your mat on your back, because you're not going to coming back here. And that's, I think that is the transformative question of Christ always to us. [00:36:09] Speaker A: You made a point in your message thinking that Jesus was having a laugh at a piece of it or kind of potentially making a joke. Can you talk about that? [00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So this was Andy Stanley. He taught in John 5, and this is his take. So I don't take credit for the original thought here, but when Jesus comes back and sees the man, after the man has encountered the religious leaders and they've told him he's sinning for carrying his mat on the Sabbath. The nerve, right? Jesus circles back and sees him in the temple, evidently the same day. And when he sees him, he says, now you stop sinning, or something worse might happen. What Stanley said, and which I parroted yesterday, plagiarized, parroted, either way, was basically that. Read it like a human. Don't read it like a scholar trying to figure out what religious point Jesus is making. Read it like a human. J has just healed this man who has not moved from that patio in 38 years. He's not a notorious sinner. He hasn't been able to do much sinning the five minutes that have passed or the hour that's passed. He hasn't had all this time to go, you know, indulge in vices. All he's had time to do was carry his mat on the Sabbath, which was a sin. So in that reading, Jesus sees him as like, oh, you stop sinning, otherwise something worse might happen. And in his line of sight is probably the Pharisees who are scheming how to punish this man for his great sin of carrying his mat on the Sabbath. And the joke in there, maybe we don't know because John doesn't say, but the joke in there is this idea of, like, what in the world could the Pharisees do that is worse than what this guy had just been saved from by Jesus? And it just, I think when you see it through that lens of like, Jesus versus the religious leaders on what God cares about, it puts that line into this, like, kind of humorous. Yeah, like he's jabbing the religious leaders as if they could do something that's going to hurt this man who's now had his whole life transformed by the power of God. So I like that interpretation. I don't know if it's true. Maybe Jesus is saying like, if you, you know, if you don't stop sinning, God's going to smite you. But it just doesn't seem like John. It doesn't seem like Jesus. [00:38:20] Speaker A: Well, there's just as much uncertainty in that as there is in trying to read it the other way. Like you said, like read it like a normal human. I guess there's just as much risk in being wrong, interpreting it on either side of that. [00:38:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:33] Speaker A: And I actually think this fits a lot better of. Yeah, how ridiculous to tell a guy who's been just sitting around to stop sinning after just an hour of healing him. But I love that countenance of Jesus. Even I, I actually more and more, again, maybe right or wrong, am imagining Jesus with that posture so many times of, of elbowing somebody in the ribs real quick and having a laugh over something. I think, of course it was a part of hanging around with 12 guys and wandering like they did. And it makes sense in that place. There's a sweetness to Jesus that I appreciate in that interpretation. [00:39:12] Speaker B: And this is a first hand account from a disciple. You know, Luke's not one of the disciples. John, Mark, who wrote the Gospel of Mark, likely from Peter, but it's, you know, it's a secondhand account. So we have Matthew and we have John who were like there. And so I love the idea that when we're reading Matthew and we're reading John, like they're not only telling the story, they're also infusing it with like the inside jokes and the personality, because they knew his personality. And some of that I think was probably lost when it was secondhand or when it's just the stories of the miracles. John's like smiling when he remembers, like, oh, this happened. And I remember the personality of Jesus in that moment, not just what he actually physically did. Yeah. [00:40:00] Speaker A: And I love that. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:01] Speaker A: What if John could write with emojis? That would have been great. What emojis would have been using? He would have been using all of them. [00:40:06] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And what is his favorite quarter? Yeah, sorry. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Oh, then Matthew would have been using like em dashes and dot, dot dots. You know, he probably wouldn't have been an emoji guy like Matthew. [00:40:21] Speaker B: I don't know. Are you an emoji Person. Lindsay, that's a stupid question. [00:40:24] Speaker C: I can't send a text without one. [00:40:26] Speaker B: Really? [00:40:27] Speaker C: I can't do it because you have. [00:40:28] Speaker B: To, like, let people. Em. [00:40:29] Speaker C: I'm not mad at you. Smiley face, thumbs up, heart emoji. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Do you do it when you actually are mad at them and when you're not mad at them? [00:40:37] Speaker C: Middle finger emoji. No, I'm just kidding. [00:40:39] Speaker A: I'm joking. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Always has to be an emoji. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Yep. [00:40:42] Speaker B: Yep. I'll do, like, the one word. Like. Okay. If I'm annoyed or something. [00:40:47] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, that communicates that. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Just like, okay. [00:40:51] Speaker C: Yep. [00:40:52] Speaker B: Or sure. [00:40:52] Speaker C: Yep. [00:40:53] Speaker A: I use the laugh crying emoji almost exclusively. And that's it. That's pretty much it. [00:41:00] Speaker B: I do a lot of the yellow thumb up hand. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Not the white guy hand, thumbs up. [00:41:07] Speaker B: No, I just want. I want people to know I haven't spent a lot of time. Time thinking about this or adjusting my emoji for you. It's just the default yellow. [00:41:14] Speaker A: You send the emoji. You're not liking the text. [00:41:18] Speaker B: I'll do both, but I use it in. Which. That's probably, like, such an old. Like, an elder millennial thing to do. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:26] Speaker B: Like, what are the cool kids doing for emojis? Yeah. [00:41:29] Speaker A: I've just become such a bad texter altogether. [00:41:31] Speaker C: I think the cool kids are using emojis completely different than we do. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Kids are? [00:41:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. I think they all mean something totally different than what we think they mean. Ye. Yeah, we're old. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Does that frustrate you? [00:41:44] Speaker C: No, because I'm not in their text messages. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Frustrates me. [00:41:47] Speaker C: Couldn't care less. [00:41:47] Speaker B: I've got. I have the oldest child in the room, Clara. I'll come back with an answer. Is she texting along with the cool kid? Yeah, she is. Okay. She's 13. She got a phone. Lockdown phone. But it's a phone. And, yeah, she's. [00:42:02] Speaker A: What's a lockdown? [00:42:03] Speaker B: Posses can't do much. [00:42:06] Speaker A: You know, imagining Claire with a posse. [00:42:09] Speaker B: Like, doodle, do, do, do. I can't whistle into this mic. Can't do it. There you go. There it is. [00:42:16] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. I think my son has a girlfriend. [00:42:19] Speaker B: Fifth grade. What? [00:42:21] Speaker C: That's big news. [00:42:22] Speaker A: I know. [00:42:23] Speaker C: Who is she? What do we know about her? [00:42:24] Speaker A: Her name's Hadley. I don't know anything about her. Couldn't point her out if you asked me to. So we're walking through it. Yeah. No, he told me very sweetly and kind of reluctantly the other day, but he initiated the conversation which was sweet. He wanted me to know. [00:42:42] Speaker C: That is sweet. [00:42:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:44] Speaker A: And I told him. Bad timing, bro. Valentine's Day right around the corner. Expectations through the roof. What are you doing? [00:42:49] Speaker B: Supposed to wait till the weekend after. [00:42:54] Speaker C: Boys are the worst. You guys are the absolute worst. [00:42:58] Speaker A: I didn't say that. [00:43:01] Speaker B: I didn't say that. Are you guys gonna do anything Valentine's? But I'm asking, like, as couples, do your spouses really care about Valentine's? Or do you care? [00:43:11] Speaker A: Rebecca likes all those things. And neither of us likes the day. We'll do something around near Valentine's Day. Like the Tuesday before it or around it or whatever. We're not big. [00:43:24] Speaker B: We're not big. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Go out when the rush is happening kind of people. Married 15 years. I think we've earned the right to not have to celebrate things on the day. [00:43:31] Speaker B: I guess so. [00:43:32] Speaker A: That's a real positive. [00:43:34] Speaker B: What about you guys? [00:43:35] Speaker C: I like the excuse to go out. And I like a thoughtful gesture. I like to think I don't. But there was one year where Eric didn't. And I was like, how dare you? Kind of. I was a little bit upset. So he went out. I have a picture. He went out and got me a teddy bear, a bouquet of flowers and lots of balloons. [00:43:55] Speaker B: All the cliches together. [00:43:56] Speaker C: He was like, okay, here you go. I was like, okay. I don't actually want that. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:00] Speaker A: I was gonna say, did you like that? [00:44:01] Speaker C: But it was like a funny. [00:44:03] Speaker A: What's a thoughtful gesture? What comes to mind. [00:44:06] Speaker C: Like, flowers would be nice. [00:44:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:10] Speaker C: I don't want a teddy bear. [00:44:11] Speaker B: But, yeah, I feel like. Because I don't know that Ellis and I have any memories of memorable Valentine's Day things. Even when we've gone out. It's fine. I think it serves more as a test if you're a loser as a spouse that you don't do anything, or if you're single and you wish you weren't single. It really stirs up those feelings. So I feel like it's a negative holiday to where it's not so much good for the ones that are celebrating it. It's bad for the ones that either forget it or don't have someone. What a terrible thing. [00:44:44] Speaker A: Best case scenario is that you're just a zero. [00:44:46] Speaker B: Right. You're just negative. We weren't mad at each other that day. That's the best Valentine's Day can do. [00:44:53] Speaker A: That's so cool. [00:44:54] Speaker C: Agreed. [00:44:55] Speaker B: So, yeah, I'm not a big. It. [00:44:57] Speaker A: It's the Enneagram aid in me thing where I go oh, people want to celebrate Valentine's Day. Amazing. Don't you dare tell me when to celebrate my marriage. Don't do. [00:45:06] Speaker B: Man, you're really hung up on this calendar date thing. It has to be not on the day. We get it, Ben. That's a big deal. [00:45:14] Speaker A: I will do what I want. Look, I'm just being vulnerable and honest here. That's all. [00:45:18] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:45:19] Speaker A: Don't control me. [00:45:20] Speaker B: Ben. Are you happy that your Seahawks are going to the Super Bowl? [00:45:23] Speaker A: You brought it up. Thank you so much. Let me tell you. Oh, I'm so excited they beat the Rams last night. The Rams are rival, hated, really good team. And they pulled it off, man. It was fun, exciting. I hadn't guttural yelled in a while, but I did last night. Yeah. Clock hit zero. [00:45:42] Speaker B: So now. Now that we know it's the Patriots and the Seahawks and you know these teams, who do you think, like, just skill wise, who's favored to win? [00:45:51] Speaker A: Seahawks are favored by Vegas, and I think they're a lot better than the Patriots. Patriots have had a pretty easy schedule. They fall short in a lot of ways roster wise compared to Seattle. But it's football. And Lindsay's laughing at me. [00:46:09] Speaker C: No. Can I tell them? Justin, what'd you say? Justin texted me and said, Seahawks time stamp 46 minutes. Buckle up. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Yeah, Buckle up. [00:46:24] Speaker A: I am in control right now, Justin. I can break down position by position if you want. [00:46:31] Speaker B: Fast forward 19 minutes and all of us have gone. You're sitting here alone and you're still talking. [00:46:35] Speaker A: I take a channeling my inner Bill Simmons. Yeah, no, I think legit. I think the Zeox are better. Yeah, but it's football, man, and it's the frigging Patriots. They are just like vermin that won't. [00:46:47] Speaker B: Go away, these stupid Patriots. [00:46:51] Speaker A: Lindsay, you had a football experience recently. [00:46:53] Speaker C: So you didn't hate nice football moments with my dad? Yeah. I went home to visit him for his 70th, and we watched some football games with him, and I enjoyed myself. I'll just say it. Yes, I enjoyed myself. [00:47:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I was talking with your husband, Eric, and was explaining I always feel the tension of poor people that spend time with family that really like football and the football's happening and they feel like they can't because nobody else cares. And then the opposite is terrible, too. Of I don't participate in this now I'm in a room with, like, yelling people that are explaining the rules to me when I don't care. Like, I feel so bad for both. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Sides of that equation. [00:47:32] Speaker A: So he was telling me, he was like, yeah, we, like, kind of watch some football. And I was like, oh, no, you poor guys. [00:47:41] Speaker B: It is hard. I'm grateful for football at family get get togethers on my wife's side because it just gives you something to. Yeah, just stare at, you know, and just smooths over all the. All the. The social stuff, you know. It's great. [00:47:55] Speaker A: You guys watch the super bowl, right? [00:47:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:58] Speaker C: Food and watch is relative. [00:47:59] Speaker B: You are in the room with it on. Yes. [00:48:02] Speaker A: Do you do, like, go to a party or something? Friends gather. [00:48:04] Speaker C: If there is one. Yeah. If not, just put it on at the house. [00:48:08] Speaker A: Okay. [00:48:09] Speaker C: I could take it or leave it, in case you could not tell. [00:48:11] Speaker B: It's like Valentine's Day. It's kind of like Valentine's Day. [00:48:15] Speaker A: I'll celebrate the super bowl the Friday before. I don't even care. Doesn't care about football on that day. [00:48:24] Speaker B: Have you met anyone that's like. Like, don't spoil the game on the super bowl where they're going to watch it later? No. No one does that. Right? You can't. No, you can't get away with that. [00:48:32] Speaker A: You can't really do it at all anymore. Everybody's watching, you know, So I was watching. I was tempted to record the game last night because I was at my son's basketball games, but I said, no, I'm gonna put it on in the bleachers and just tell Joel I'll be looking sometimes. [00:48:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:45] Speaker A: And he was such a sweet. But he was like, watch the game, dad. Don't watch my game. And. But of course, like, four people. Just the conversation I heard around me announcing the scores and updating the people. [00:48:55] Speaker B: Around that you can't hide from. [00:48:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:57] Speaker B: You had service. I know. We talked Sunday morning. Yesterday morning, you were worried about not getting service in the gym. I did. [00:49:04] Speaker A: It was in elementary school we hadn't been at. And I had service. [00:49:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:07] Speaker A: All these other gyms are full of concrete. Why do the phones give you two bars and then do nothing? How is that possible? [00:49:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. [00:49:17] Speaker A: You know, if you had this. It's like lte, two bars, amazing. And I can't get a text. I can't send one. [00:49:22] Speaker B: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Like, in a town our size, like, I'll have 5G. And then you have to turn that off to actually get data sometimes to switch back over to. It's like whatever's going on and how they're reporting this coverage. [00:49:35] Speaker A: It's weird. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:36] Speaker A: Justin probably knows and he doesn't have. [00:49:38] Speaker B: A microphone, so he has the secret knowledge. [00:49:41] Speaker A: He does. He knows why. System's just. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Anyway, okay. [00:49:46] Speaker A: Go Seahawks, man. [00:49:47] Speaker B: Go Seahawks. [00:49:48] Speaker A: Cheer for him, guy. Just cheer for him. For me? [00:49:50] Speaker B: Oh, no. I'm excited. Pacific Northwest. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Come on. Great. [00:49:54] Speaker B: If you don't care about football at all, you should love the Pacific Northwest. [00:49:58] Speaker A: And Boston's won. So many could win over the last 20 years. Forget them, man. [00:50:04] Speaker B: I will. I'll forget all of them. I don't even get that city. I can't remember a single name of a single player on the Patriots right now. Or you had a crappy vacation there. [00:50:13] Speaker A: A couple years ago. [00:50:14] Speaker B: It was so cold. Oh, oh, so cold. All right, we'll be back this weekend for John Chapter six. We'll see you there. [00:50:24] Speaker A: Yeah, we will.