John Week 5

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast, we take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Evan Earwicker and Lindsay Parnell. How are you doing? [00:00:20] Speaker C: I'm doing very well, thank you. [00:00:22] Speaker B: We need a way to include you in the opening list, Lindsay. That isn't just me saying your name. [00:00:27] Speaker A: And this is Lindsey Parnell. [00:00:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I could say. And I'm Lindsay Parnell. [00:00:32] Speaker A: Okay, sure. [00:00:33] Speaker B: Let's try that. [00:00:33] Speaker C: Although last time we did it, it was very, like, news anchor y. It was weird. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Well, with three, I feel like. Ben, you should probably just introduce both of us. [00:00:40] Speaker C: Oh, I like that better, actually. [00:00:42] Speaker B: Otherwise, it's awkward. [00:00:43] Speaker A: In this podcast, we take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming, along with Evan Earwicker and Lindsey Parnell. [00:00:49] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:00:50] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Was that it, or should I do your names first? [00:00:53] Speaker B: No, no. Okay. Yeah. Okay. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Don't want people to think that I'm Lindsey Parnell. Is that what you're after? [00:01:00] Speaker C: It could be confusing. [00:01:01] Speaker A: So easily confused. [00:01:03] Speaker B: You said Earwicker pretty well. Did I? Yeah. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Is there a bad way to say it? [00:01:06] Speaker B: Oh, people screw it up. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Like, mumble it. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:09] Speaker A: Earwigger. [00:01:13] Speaker B: How you guys doing? [00:01:14] Speaker A: Doing so good. You and I. We were just saying we've talked a lot today. We really are. [00:01:19] Speaker B: We've been in conversation since 10. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker B: At least. [00:01:22] Speaker A: High likelihood. This goes so far off the rails. [00:01:27] Speaker C: Give the people what they want. [00:01:29] Speaker B: Okay. So do you. Did you buy special merch for the game on Sunday, or are you using your normal merch? [00:01:36] Speaker A: My wife bought new shirts for us all. I just learned this this morning. They arrived tomorrow. Yeah, my wife did it. Yeah, she gets very excited about football. Like, very. I like football a lot, but I love baseball. Rebecca loves football so much. [00:01:51] Speaker B: Are you guys getting numbered gear, or is it always just the whole team gear? [00:01:56] Speaker A: This is just team gear. This is just. I think it says, like, NFC champions on it or something like that. I'm a little reluctant. Last super bowl that they lost, I bought our family gear for the day, and it didn't go well, and so I wasn't planning on doing any of it. And then Rebecca did it, so. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:11] Speaker A: And now I have someone to blame. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Have you ever looked into what the process is when the losing team has to destroy all of their champion gear? [00:02:19] Speaker A: I heard it gets shipped overseas. [00:02:21] Speaker B: Really? [00:02:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Have you not heard this? [00:02:23] Speaker B: No, I haven't. I've always wondered. I've never looked into it. [00:02:26] Speaker A: No. Literally, there's Lots of pictures that you can find of people wearing the team that didn't win, the shirts that say they were the champions in, like, far away, distant countries. Wow. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause they have to make. They have to have all the merch ready. Yeah. At the game. Right. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Wow. Or what happens to the confetti that's the wrong color because they'll rain down confetti of the team's color. And the other ones must be up in the. [00:02:53] Speaker B: That seems easier to save. [00:02:54] Speaker A: Sure. [00:02:55] Speaker B: Than, you know, a hundred thousand. Yeah. T shirts. Yeah. [00:02:58] Speaker A: I wonder how many shirts it is, because it's the. [00:03:02] Speaker B: A lot. [00:03:02] Speaker A: I don't know. But then they get ready to sell it immediately after, too. Are they selling team stuff? [00:03:06] Speaker B: Are they selling it at the games? [00:03:09] Speaker A: I don't think so. [00:03:10] Speaker B: It's probably too. After the game too much to have. [00:03:13] Speaker A: All that rolled out. Yeah. They give it to the players and the staff. Everybody gets those immediately. And then the commercials come up, the game is over, and the first commercial is, congratulations, the Seattle Seahawks won the Superbook. You can buy the Merchant, blah, blah, blah. But I don't think they're handing it out. [00:03:28] Speaker B: And so they probably haven't made millions of copies of these sweatshirts and hats. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I think they have a lot available, but not necessarily everything that you might need. [00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Would you go to a Super bowl champion parade? Would you go to one of these, Attend one of these. If you lived in one of the cities? [00:03:48] Speaker B: If I lived in the city, sure. I would not travel. [00:03:51] Speaker A: Sure. [00:03:51] Speaker B: Any distance to get to it. If, like, you know, if the Redmond Panthers won the Super Bowl, I'd be like, that's too far. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:01] Speaker B: I'm not going there. [00:04:03] Speaker A: So you'd have to, like, live in downtown Seattle to attend that parade. [00:04:07] Speaker B: That might happen in a few days. Walking distance, and I would totally go. [00:04:10] Speaker A: And accidentally get into it. [00:04:12] Speaker B: No, I think if it's your. If it's your city, you're so excited. Just that, you know, it's your people. Yeah. [00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah. It feels communal. Right. You guys like parades in general? Lindsey, you take your kids to the parades? [00:04:23] Speaker C: Oh, I don't enjoy parades. [00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:27] Speaker C: I don't know. I think Ben's parades are cute. The Christmas parade's cute. The pet parade's cute. But the crowds are something else. I don't enjoy that parking, like, the size of them. [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:39] Speaker C: I just don't like having to, like, I don't know, navigate the crowds. But, yeah, I'll take them. [00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:45] Speaker C: But I'm not. I don't think we're A big parade family. [00:04:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:48] Speaker B: I have a low or a high bar for parade floats. So if you just roll up and you're just driving your truck and you have like. Yeah. And you just have a sign on the side that's like, I'm a politician or I have a window washing company. I'm gonna be like, do better. You signed up for this parade. You knew it was coming, and that's all you could do. So I do. Yeah, I get grumpy. [00:05:12] Speaker A: I just don't like the practice of standing there and watching everything go by. The most fun I've ever had at a parade is the puppy parade or the pet parade that we have here. That is legitimately. You get to look at the owner with the animal, which is always a fun little comparison to make. One of the most fun work assignments I ever had was I covered a dog show newspaper. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Tell us about that. [00:05:34] Speaker A: Oh, my God. That was. When people say dogs are like their owners or look like. It was 100% true to the largest degree at these dog shows. You know, you had kind of tall, lanky people with tall, lanky dogs and short, squatty dogs with short, squatty people and the personalities coming out. I mean, it was. I left being like, this is a really hard event to cover. Like, what am I covering? And how can I squeeze 400 words out of this? But I left being like, I would come back with lunch and just watch these people as long as I could. It was fascinating. [00:06:08] Speaker B: And you were doing. What kind of write up are you doing on these? [00:06:12] Speaker A: I mean, it was. I was. It was for the sports page. So I guess I was talking about the competition. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:06:19] Speaker A: And first and second and third. And I remember writing up all those details, but how to do it. And some sports are way harder than others. Even, like, volleyball's a really fun game to watch, but even the greatest play just results in this one point out of 25 that happened in each round. And so you kind of have to talk about, well, and then they scored seven in a row. But then each individual detail while football, it's like. And then it was this long of a pass, and he got this and avoided two defenders and all that. And so dog shows was like the most exaggerated version of like. And then it walked around and around, and it was very disciplined. Like, what are the descriptors for how it dog won a championship? I don't. [00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, she. You know, she. She pattered or like. You probably have to use different ways to describe the movement of their paws. [00:07:10] Speaker A: I think I should have I don't know that I did. [00:07:14] Speaker B: She pitter pattered. Well, if you ever go back into newspaper writing, I got you the fringe. [00:07:21] Speaker A: On the golden retriever. Let me tell you. That was impressive. [00:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. Do you think you'll get another dog? Ben, you're down to two. That sounds. Oh, my God. [00:07:33] Speaker A: But three on the property. [00:07:34] Speaker B: My parents. Oh, that's right, because they have a dog, too. Yeah. There's probably enough dogs. Three on the property. [00:07:40] Speaker A: We talked about this last night. Some border collies came up on the Adopt a Pet band, and of course, my heart was moved with compassion and. [00:07:50] Speaker B: Are you gonna do it? [00:07:52] Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no, no. Too many things in the house right now. Too much stuff going on. Our giant dog takes up plenty of my time. Roland is exhausting boy. So we're good with that. [00:08:04] Speaker B: I was. I was picking up my daughter from middle school the other day and saw you walking by. Because you lived near the middle school. That's right. And I. I took your picture after you passed the car and then sent it to you, and I told Alyssa this, and she's like, you didn't roll down the window and say hello like a human? No, no, no, no, no. Of course not. Would you. Would you. Would you roll? I didn't want to interrupt you. You're on a walk. I just want to let you know I was taking pictures of you. Yeah, exactly. [00:08:30] Speaker A: Nobody understands our relationship. Hello to him out in public. What a terrible idea. [00:08:36] Speaker B: We just left each other like, 10 minutes before, you know, so. Yeah. [00:08:41] Speaker A: I walk that loop twice a day. [00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:44] Speaker A: All the way around the school property and stuff like that with my big dog. Yeah. And I thought I looked just fine from behind, so. [00:08:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:52] Speaker A: You appreciate. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Well done. Yeah. [00:08:54] Speaker A: I don't get that view very often. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Very handsome. It's your best angle. Yeah. Without the dog, would you feel weird just circling the middle and elementary schools by yourself? [00:09:07] Speaker A: I would not walk there. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel a little weird. Anyway, children want to come say hi to Roland all the time. And so it makes me feel a little bit like I just rolled up in my van with candy, you know, to bring kids over my direction. [00:09:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Sometimes they'll be like 10. I'm like, can we picture? Can we see your dog? And if one of my kids is in that group, which happens often, I feel okay. But, man, when it's just a group of random kids, I'm like, oh, boy, I'm gonna leave now before I lose my job. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Well, and that. That was the block Where I think I shared about this. We went to the park across from the school close to dark this past summer. And we were just hanging out with the kids and running around and then we were playing tag and at one point Claire ran out to the sidewalk on the street and started running away from me and I was it. And then I realized like now I'm just a middle aged dude chasing after a middle school girl by her school. So I was like clara, stop. I'm not going to chase you anymore if you don't know what's going on. I could get attacked or arrested. [00:10:11] Speaker A: That moving out to the street was really. [00:10:14] Speaker B: Didn't it as long as on the grass. It was like, oh, it's just a family plane. The second she hit the sidewalk. This. It looks like abduction in progress. [00:10:22] Speaker A: Even if your family. But you're chasing your daughter down the street. That's a problem too. [00:10:27] Speaker B: All of it. Yeah. It just. Yeah. So shut that game of tag right down. It was just like all the pieces were there. It was right at desk right next to the school. Yeah. [00:10:38] Speaker A: I hope that people that are listening are at least relieved by the fact that we think about how we're perceived in a lot of these situations. Maybe that brings some comfort to someone. [00:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Like on river Trail. I always think about this. How can I look the right amount of non threatening friendly? You don't look too friendly because then you seem like a weirdo and you don't want to just look so serious. So do you have any tricks? And Lindsay, you can speak to this. Like how do you want a normal human man to look non threatening on a trail? Like what's the appropriate way to just signal like I'm cool, do your thing. Benign man over here. Yeah. Yeah, totally. [00:11:21] Speaker C: No saying that makes you seem guilty. I'd be afraid of you. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Gosh, I don't know. You wouldn't say that. Benign. [00:11:30] Speaker C: I mean you no harm. I don't know. A little smile, keep going. Don't pay too much attention to me. Just. I don't know, keep doing your thing. But I also don't walk the river trail so couldn't tell you. [00:11:43] Speaker A: I think when you make eye contact is what matters most. I try to wait till maybe 8ft from the person and then do a. And that's it. [00:11:54] Speaker B: You don't wait until you're right next to him and then just quick eye. [00:11:58] Speaker A: Contacting up really early and looking at them, you know. And then I say benign man. [00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I think I avoid eye contact altogether. [00:12:07] Speaker A: You don't look at Them? [00:12:09] Speaker B: No, just look at the ground. Like if you're walking or running, just. [00:12:12] Speaker A: And well, you go past them. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Yeah. But you're just focused on right in front of you. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Wow, that's a power move I've ever heard. What is it? Yeah, you gotta look at people, I think, you know, and look, I. I'm with you. I would prefer to not feel like there. Any communication has to be done. But communication has to be done. There has to be a brief. [00:12:33] Speaker B: Gwen, what do you think? What's the right. What's the right trail etiquette? [00:12:39] Speaker C: I think you do have to acknowledge. [00:12:41] Speaker B: You have to acknowledge them. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:42] Speaker C: A little smile and nod. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Hey. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Hey. [00:12:46] Speaker C: Why is it creepy when you guys do that? [00:12:50] Speaker B: We're so close. Like, hey. Yeah. [00:12:54] Speaker A: Don't want to look at them too early. Don't look them too late either. You don't want to startle them. You know, you're right next to them. Hey, I see you're there. And then you don't want to look at them when they've gone past either. You know, it's. There's like an eight foot buffer. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker A: And then continue on. [00:13:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like there was a. There was maybe a year or two where I would start a Lindsay all the time. Even when I was the first one in a room in the student center, like in the copy room or something. [00:13:19] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. [00:13:20] Speaker B: And you walked in and you would just get startled all the time by me. And I'm like, I didn't do anything. I'm just standing here making copies. [00:13:27] Speaker C: I'm just easily startled by all people all the time. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:30] Speaker C: It wasn't just you. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm jumpy. I don't know why. I'm very jumpy. [00:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:37] Speaker A: Anyway, speaking of jumpy, John Six. [00:13:40] Speaker B: Yep. [00:13:40] Speaker C: What a segue. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Perfect segue. [00:13:43] Speaker A: I'm really so good at these. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah. John 6, you preached in the story of the feeding the 5,000 and you've preached out of this angle before. And I thought it's really good. Is the crowd that Jesus is out in the wilderness with so different from the temple? So different from when he's in Jerusalem facing down the religious leaders. Now he's out in the wilderness with a different group and they have different thoughts about who he might be. [00:14:09] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:09] Speaker A: A couple years ago, I think I heard Tim Keller speak about this. In the context of it being a mustering of an army was the perception that when Jesus goes and spends time with 5,000 men, so that doesn't include the entire crowd of women and children. That the idea, the perception and the hope of the crowd is in this idea of we are now, this resistance that's going to rise against Rome. And then Jesus's words to me finally make way more sense in the context of that. Instead of just he was wandering around and taking a little bit of a break, and then all of a sudden came upon these people. But these people are thirsting for a huge political and social change. And so they come find him believing that he's the king, which makes even more sense. They say they wanted to make him king by force. And then his really. It feels kind of like a reprimand in some cases. Toward the end of the chapter in John, chapter six, when he's trying to explain himself that I'm the bread of life, and I know you want miracles, I know you want manna from heaven that's reminiscent of Moses and the people that have come before you, but I've come for something bigger and better and greater. And the most offensive part to the group of people is that Jesus would say there is something better than making Israel the center of the universe again. Right. The nation itself. And I mean, ultimately, that's why he dies, right? That's why he's killed. Is. Is this similar sentiment? [00:15:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you see the threads of it. When Jesus is confronting religious leaders around Sabbath rules, there's this religious angst towards him that's brewing and they're trying to kill him. And then out here in the wilderness, it starts to make sense, like, oh, this is a group of revolutionaries hoping that he's going to lead them into their new promised land. And he's even provided the bread, like, it's all lining up. And those two forces, the threat to Rome that would have been felt by a Rome that's mostly interested in keeping the peace. Right. They don't want to get involved in the Jewish religious squabble between the Pharisees and Jesus. But they're very concerned if you have a revolutionary stirring up, you know, insurrection against the empire. So you have these two forces that start to be clear. And John is very in tune to these. These power moves that are happening within his story. And I don't know, growing up, I never read the feeding of 5,000 this way at all. It felt more like. And Jesus was out telling parables, and then he went out and he fed 5,000. So to see through this lens of revolution and the hope that people had that he was going to lead them into the promised land, which was now the restoration of Israel, out from underneath Rome, it's powerful. [00:16:48] Speaker A: And Tim Keller even points to what some historians show as, like, there's this active group of radicals that are hiding out in this rural part, and they're. They're even hoping and waiting for. Just for someone to say the word so they can run back into the city and take it over. And so there's almost this, like, salivating, excited, angry group that's waiting for him out here. And then Jesus just doesn't answer that bell, right? And even as you talk about the three different groups, the Roman government, the religious leaders, and then the Jewish radicals, is so unsatisfactory to every single one of the groups. And each one of them try to take the power that he displays and then pull that power into their own hopes and dreams. And Jesus rejects every single one of them and disappoints every single one of them. Which is why at the end, when people are shouting all the way across, everyone can agree, finally, we don't want this Jesus guy around. He stinks, man. He's not serving any single one of us. And so head and crucifixion and we'll take Barabbas back anyway, is he's not getting the job done right. And I think that's the relatable part for everybody sitting in the seats. And maybe, really depending on whatever season of life you find yourself in, the temptation can be to, like, look, this was a great idea. And I see a couple of the boxes that are checked here, but Jesus isn't completing the job for me. And so I really need to add something else into this mix in order to live the life that I want to live. [00:18:14] Speaker B: Yeah, he refuses to be a means to an end. And we're always trying to make Jesus a means to an end, and especially when he shows power because, you know, it's like, oh, I got plans for that. I remember talking to people here at the church. My nephew is very, very tall. I think he's almost 6, 9. And so we had a bunch of guys one morning around service, you might have been in the conversation, and the guys were like, oh, I could so use him. If he ever wanted to play basketball, if he ever wanted to play baseball, I could. Oh, he'd be so great. And it's like, this is kind of how it is with Jesus. Like, they see a tall guy, they see a powerful guy, they see a guy who can produce bread on demand. It seems they're like, oh, we've got plans for this. And how many wars throughout history have been won or lost on Logistics on a hard winter in Russia that defeats Alexander the Great. Right. Like, was it Alexander or was it Napoleon? Who. Who got defeated by the winter in Russia? [00:19:08] Speaker A: Napoleon. [00:19:09] Speaker B: Was it Napoleon? [00:19:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. [00:19:11] Speaker A: And I'm sure many have gotten defeated by the winter. [00:19:13] Speaker B: It's food and it's exposure. Right. So if they can solve half the problem, man, that's all you need for an army. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:19] Speaker B: And so it's like, you kind of see the wheels turning here. And then Jesus is just so frustrating to them. [00:19:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:25] Speaker B: Because he withdraws. And then he's like, I've got to say something that's so shocking that even these revolutionaries will pull back and he's like, eat my flesh, drink my blood, or you can have no part of me. Like, see ya. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Oh, finally, mission accomplished. [00:19:40] Speaker B: Jesus, if you wanted to get rid of whatever this vibe was, he does. [00:19:43] Speaker A: It even just what you were talking about. He is. I think I even said on one of the services we can, like, his Q rating is higher than ever once he feeds these people the 5,000, and then he just walks away. Which is so counter to, like, everything that certainly we experience now in the era of influencers. Right. And the moment something goes viral, all of a sudden you can see someone make a living off of this one moment that created some attention. Not even adoration necessarily in today's day and age. Like, it just created attention. And then we capture that, and then we can monetize it as we go forward. And Jesus is at this moment of monetization or the gathering of power so that really he can make whatever decision he wants from here and get it done. And he just walks to a mountain and then he walks on water, and then he comes back and has another conversation with these people. It's so counter. And I just wonder if. If we could afford to look for this from more leaders in our current state, ones that at these moments where they could have everything, they take a moment to slow everything down and then to reorient the perspective of the crowds and tell them their priorities again and get back to the centerpiece of maybe what made them worth following in the first place. [00:21:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because Jesus is going through cycles of obscurity into temptation to capitalize on the intention. Right. And we see that at the beginning of his ministry, he spends 30 years as a no name person. Right. You okay, Gwen? He spends 30 years in obscurity, and then he has this moment, right. Where the Holy Spirit descends into him like a dove. After his baptism, everyone hears this voice from heaven saying, this is my Son, that's the moment. If it's me, I'm like, sweet, now I have all the ability to rally a crowd. Let's go. Instead, he goes right out into the wilderness. And it's in the wilderness he gets tempted to skip over everything that was ahead of him. All the suffering, all the cross. Just take it, Jesus. Just take the power. And he says no to the devil. I feel like then he goes back into obscurity until the crowds get large enough that we're here at this moment and the temptation is there again. Jesus, you've got all the people, we could do something with this. They try to make him king. He withdraws into the wilderness. And I feel like this is this constant temptation that's present in the life of Jesus that he pushes back against all the way to where he gets to the garden and it's like the final temptation in the garden. And he's saying, it's not my will to be done, but yours. And so I love seeing that Jesus isn't just so far removed from the temptations of power and capitalizing on the attention, but that he's actually pushing back against it aggressively. [00:22:36] Speaker A: That's interesting. I've never thought about it as a temptation, and you're probably speaking from some kind of orthodoxy that I haven't considered. Yeah, it is a temptation. Right? And the fact that he consistently responds in this way and he shows his cards in this story specifically that he's after something that's going to last a lot longer than what they want and the temptation to restore Israel to its former power. In this context, I think Jesus is saying that can be attained right now with what we have, but it just won't last forever. It won't be the thing that I need it to be for humanity. And it would be this short term and temporary thing. You know, I kind of talked about it in a funny way. And relative to, like junk food, like, there's no actual caloric value to this entire thing. You can eat it and you'll feel good for a little bit and then you'll feel sick afterward. I want to give you the bread that I am. That's actually not just for you. It's also for the Gentiles and it's for the world, which again, might be a good way for us to look in the mirror. Always wanting things that will simply benefit us right now, here in the moment, as opposed to being somebody that can benefit the larger group and even the larger group that's not in existence yet, but will exist in Years to come. [00:23:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And the bread miracle as an illustration to I am the bread of life is an interesting way to think about it because we see a lot of miracles of Jesus as the compassion of Jesus. And I don't know that feeding the people isn't an act of compassion in this moment. However, I don't know that he would have done that unless he was trying to make the point that he is the bread that satisfies. So to do such a dramatically, no one forgets this. This is the story they tell for the rest of their lives. But he's using it as an illustration because they're going to get hungry the next day. So it's not like he solved some problem that they'll never be hungry again. And that's the whole point, is that they would remember. Like, that was so amazing. And then the next morning, we were like, I'm still hungry. And his point would be, yeah, because you'll always be hungry until you find me. [00:24:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:49] Speaker B: You know, so it's. It's. It's really cool. And it's also that frustrating piece of Jesus where he's like, yeah, you thought I was coming to heal you. You thought I was coming just to feed you. That's temporary. What will last forever? What I'm pointing to. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Yeah. It struck me as I was reading it on Sunday, so I didn't talk about it much because I just have far too many questions. But Jesus almost seems so crass with how he talks about the followers, the Israelites, in the wilderness following Moses, because he says he makes the point that you just made by saying your ancestors got bread from heaven and then they died. Like, he's just. So you guys think this is the greatest thing and you think you want manna. And they were all whining about it. After a little while, they stopped considering it a miracle, and then they went ahead and died anyway. Like, there's something better than all of this, and we got to be willing to engage with that. Yeah, I want to hear the intonation of Jesus. And then, you know what? Yeah. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Well, it starts to put into perspective, like, we're going to get into this week with the healing of the blind man, with putting money in his eyes and this question that the disciples raised, which is, who sinned to make this guy blind? Was it him or his parents? And Jesus says it wasn't because of sin, either of his or his parents, that this man was born blind. Which. That tracks. Like, Jesus is, like, pulling apart this superstitious thought that if I do something Wrong. Then God's gonna cause illness. But then it's the next line where he says, but this was so that the glory of the Father might be revealed. And that messes with me a little bit. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Me too. [00:26:26] Speaker B: Because I'm like, so blindness is allowed so that you can make an illustration out of it. And at first that hits me really funny, but then I'm like, oh, but that isn't that Our whole lives isn't everything that we suffer in. We have an opportunity either to be crushed by it or to find that we're met by the presence of Jesus in a way that glorifies God. I mean, isn't that the whole thing? [00:26:54] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know that I would understand what you're saying. Before I became a dad until I've seen, of course, through the lens of sports, there have now been several games where I watch my son and his team play and they've lost. And I've been like, good, good. I can see now this obstacle that then will create whatever needs to happen on the other end of it. Right. [00:27:23] Speaker B: And. [00:27:24] Speaker A: And on one hand, it feels really interesting that a son, that a father would say good. Struggle, sorrow and grief and difficulty. And see even now, as I'm saying it, the idea that God would say good on so many of these things. But I do know that there's like this beautiful growth that comes as a result. And on the other end of it, Right. Like, like you said, this is our lives. And every single time we face difficulty and grief, we learn so often about the grace of God and then the strength that he's given us to continue to go forward. And so even as I'm explaining it, I don't even like it, but I know, I feel like I understand what Jesus is saying because of my experience now as a father, and it's a hard one to relay and understand fully. [00:28:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know the story of Gandhi's brother, right? No, no. No one does because he didn't go through anything. [00:28:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:12] Speaker B: So stupid. But I got you. [00:28:14] Speaker A: I got you. Wait, did Gandhi have a brother? No. I'm intrigued. [00:28:17] Speaker B: I don't know. But no. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Was it Gandhi's brother in Russia? [00:28:22] Speaker B: Nobody's inspired by trouble free lives where it's like, oh, man, that went so smooth for you. Wow, you just walked into such good fortune. Praise the Lord. That's not how human lives work. And we're always moved and inspired. We're in the middle of trouble or suffering or struggle or a fight. People find something of beauty. And yeah, when we talk about our Christian faith. So much more so because we have at the center of it this idea of God made flesh, like God entering into the real stuff of our hard time that we have. And there's beauty in that. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Does that make sense, Lindsay, or are we heading into troublesome theological contrary? [00:29:11] Speaker C: I have two clarifying questions, actually. I'm very happy you asked me this. I think it stands. I think we need to clarify. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:20] Speaker C: Does God make people blind for his glory? Is God causing these hardships for his glory? I think we have to make that distinction. I do not believe so. I don't believe God causes these things to happen to glorify himself. That feels like narcissism to me. That feels backwards to what we see in the life of Jesus. I think bad stuff happens. I think people are born blind. There is suffering in the world. And I don't think the heart of God is good like what you're saying with losing basketball. I don't think it's like, good, good, because you'll learn this, that or the other. But I do think his redemptive nature and loving nature is always at work for these hardships and these things that do have the potential to create something so much deeper in us and more mean, meaningful in us. And I think he rejoices at that, at the redeeming arc of these things and the potential to really help us, to not even grow. But I just think there's so much more depth to life and relationship with Christ when we navigate hardships together with God as opposed to, you know, figuring it out on our own. But I don't. I don't ever think his heart is like, oh, good, they're suffering. And now there's character development. You know, that's my thought there. [00:30:45] Speaker A: No, and I would totally agree with you. I don't believe that God makes people blind. So does glory might be shown. That's really good. I think this is also just a really difficult thing to wrap our minds around. And questions that people have been asking forever, and I think you summed it up so well, is that there is rejoicing in knowing the ark that now is available to us when suffering does happen, because it comes for us all too, you know? Yeah, I think that's really well put, Lindsay. [00:31:14] Speaker C: Well, think of the resurrection, right? Like the resurrection power that the Bible says. The same power that raised Christ from the dead now lives in us, right? And so you can't have resurrection without a death. And so I do think the nature of resurrection. Ronald Rolheiser, in one of his books calls it the Pascal mystery, the allowing of something to die so that we can witness the resurrection of it on the other side of things. That is redemption. That is seeing something come full circle. And that is the entire nature of our faith is resurrection, the Pascal mystery. [00:31:52] Speaker A: And even then we call it Good Friday. [00:31:56] Speaker C: Totally. [00:31:56] Speaker A: Which always feels, I think that captures the tension in and of itself. This is not a good day. It was suffering and blood and madness and rage and fear is what it was. And we name it now. [00:32:09] Speaker B: Good. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Because of knowing that redemptive resurrection arc. [00:32:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Unless the seed dies, put in the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if, if it does, you know. And is that John? We're gonna get there in John or is that Matthew or something? I feel like it's Matthew, but that's really core to Christian theology. And if you, if you miss this idea of death and resurrection, I don't know what you have left, but maybe some nice little tea set saints. I don't know, like some great bumper stickers still survive, but you're going to miss out on like the whole point of Christianity at its core is death and resurrection because God has come close. And so we should wrestle with all this stuff. I just don't think it helps anybody. The versions of Western Christianity that ignore all the trouble and suffering of the world and just embrace this. Like we call it, name it and claim it or whatever. But it's this idea of like positive vibes only. We're in God's house and it's like, well, then you kind of eliminate most of Christian theology. Yeah. Completely. Right. Because it is how God meets suffering humanity and redeems and resurrects. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Yeah. We made a statement this last Sunday about what's been going on in Minnesota over the last couple weeks. And we don't have to talk about all that. You can find it on the website. But there was. I had written a version of the statement that included we've received the gift of grief and tension in moments like these. And you rightly said, you know, I don't hate it or something like that, but there has to be something attached to this. Otherwise we're really just stopping on the part where we're saying the awful things that have happened are good gifts and it's not as simple as that. And really we arrived at this point where it was like, no, the feelings that God has created inside the soul of humanity, that we would see such things and then we would be stricken with grief and tension in order to create and restore righteousness is where we landed. And that's the process of all of this. It does feel like a gift. The older I get, the more it feels like a gift that, like, my stomach hurts sometimes when I see something or experience or hear something, that I get frustrated and angry and confused. Like, these emotions and feelings now seem like real gifts in the middle of something that certainly does not feel like a gift. But then the redemptive arc that happens after it feels almost impossible to not consider it a gift. [00:34:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I think those negative feelings, quote unquote, the things we would shy away from and even things that we choose to. To become numb or look away so that we don't have to feel them or deal with them or process them. I do think that is a way of actually identifying with the suffering of others, but also with Christ. I think it is a way to kind of unify ourselves with him. In embracing some of those feelings and choosing not to look away, that feels like something that Jesus did and Jesus does and Jesus would do. So it's, you know, instead of self protection and self preservation, we're actually choosing to not look away. To say, that is not right. That's injustice. And I feel it in my bones and in my body because it goes against the very way of Jesus and the way that we were all created in his image. So I think it's right to do that, though it's definitely not easy. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:58] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And it's. Anybody that's been through bouts of depression, I've had little dips in there. And the numbness that happens in the middle of those times is on the other end of it, extremely scary. And so I have come to realize, even when I'm feeling at my most enraged or sorrowful or full of pain, I go, okay, it's good that I'm feeling these things because I know what it's like to not. And that actually feels like a farther walk into real darkness than the conflict that I feel right now. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Yeah. What are the tools you guys use to fight the numbing effect of just like, reality, you know, like, the news is, is it comes at us fast. And I know for me, I tend towards numbness, maybe not in the depressive way, but in a kind of an information overload, you know, where there's so much suffering or there's so much injustice, or in pastoral ministry too, like, there's so many people hurting, it's hard to stop and feel. And so what are the tools that you guys have found helpful to keep us sensitized? Not Only to, like, God's work, but also, like, just what people are feeling. [00:37:15] Speaker A: The prayer practice that you and I use with Brian Zahn's stuff and the. The prayers that he walks through are really helpful for me in all of that. Like, we've talked about before, that the spontaneous charismatic movement. Prayer is very much a part of my life, but I've learned so much from forcing myself in so many situations. Just pray old prayers that other people have offered, which then has to put me into a position where I am considering things that I would not consider based on what's happened in my life over the last two, three days that maybe I would more naturally pray for. So I'm not thinking about orphans, you know, or people that are marginalized. And these prayers automatically lead me through my. Bringing my attention back to some of these places that aren't necessarily on my way to work or part of my regular life. And so who and how we're praying for and ensuring that our prayer life includes something broader than simply our requests is extremely important. Me. But then even I get a lot out of just prepping myself to meet with people one on one or one on two. And I'm meeting with somebody right after we record this podcast and experiencing their breadth of suffering and difficulty. And so I can spend a whole week thinking about fashioning a statement together as we lead the church. And then I'm immediately brought back down into. And my mom just got a diagnosis of cancer, and she's got two months, and I don't know what to do. And there's unresolved this and that and to go. Oh, my gosh, yes. The constant practice of the world is far bigger than your problems in your day. Leads me into this real feeling of empathy as opposed to the feeling of isolation and depression. So, Lindsay. [00:38:55] Speaker C: Yeah. What you're saying reminds me of Rich Philotis talks about how, as a pastor, it's really important to make sure that you are in touch with people who are suffering, because it's easy not to be. So that is like a pivotal part that he talks about of being a pastor. But for me personally, oh, it's so easy to just not look. I don't want to open my news app. I turn my notifications off, I'm deleting from my inbox. And then I can feel comfy in my day and I can go about my little life and pick up my children and cook dinner. And so for me, I actually really felt strongly back in maybe it was October from the Holy Spirit. Like, it's Time to pull your head out of the sand a little bit here, Lynns. And so I very carefully. I actually talked with one of my old professors, just like, how should I go about starting this? Because I don't want to be overwhelmed and I don't want to feel like, oh, there's just too much going on. Compassion fatigue, what can I even do? Anyway? And so I actually started curating what news I'm intaking. And every day it's just little bits here and there. I'll listen to like a five minute overview of what's happening in the world, et cetera, et cetera. And it's just a way for me, it's hard. That's actually really hard for me. I don't love hearing about all the garbage happening all over the world. So for me, that's actually a practice of choosing to look, choosing to inform myself and become aware. And then from that point on, navigating truly with the Holy Spirit. And I don't mean for that to be like a cliche or somebody's easy way to say they're doing something without doing something. But for me it is partnership with the Holy Spirit. Like, how do you want me to feel about this Holy Spirit? And how do you want me to pray for this? And do you want me to do anything else kind of a thing and just taking it kind of day by day. But I think we underestimate prayer a lot of times. Cause often that's all we can do. But I think that's also what we're called to do. So that's kind of my baby step into keeping my eyes open. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's this kind of work, I think, is the pastoral work in a world that like some might say, oh, we should be, you know, yelling about whatever hits the news today. We should be yelling about it on Sunday if we feel that way. And I say, yeah, sometimes, sometimes I think there is a moment to rise up and make a big statement. And then there's a lot of times where first as pastors, maybe our job is to help people understand how do we process a world that's hurting and how do we not become the ugliness of a world that is quite ugly. Right. And find that actually God is present in his beautiful world and he's calling us into that. And that whole kingdom come will be done is part of that redemptive work as opposed to just we're so slogged in the slog of bad news that we become bad news people. We just can't. We can't as Jesus people, we can't become bad news people. And I hope that in all the ways that we succeed or fail in, like, big leadership moments, that as a congregation or church or church people, that we're having these backstops of this faithful presence where in the end, we're good news people, even in a really bad news time. Right. [00:42:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And I wouldn't say I perceive you as numb. I think you're under control, as opposed to me, who can be very raw and just. I'm feeling everything, and I'm going to be really loud and big about it. And that's kind of part of my process that some people on the staff experience a little bit more firsthand than others, which I'm. I'm believing that's part of my maturity, my growth. But I would say, I mean, I think about people, you know, like you, that I think the tendency is in humility to say, well, I'm just kind of numb to it. And I just think you're under control and you believe what you're saying and that we're good news people, and this is tough news. And also, we're not ruined by it, and our faith hasn't been removed. And we're going to go and comfort, and we're going to do so with under control and vision and an expectation that the world will continue to be a difficult place in so many ways and it won't throw us here and there. That's the perception. [00:43:18] Speaker B: And John gives us inspiration. It was a volatile time that he's writing all of this, and somehow, you know, the temple's being destroyed by Rome and he's still putting his faith in the Jesus he knew. And so we can learn something from that. We're going to be in John all the way through Easter. I love it. [00:43:34] Speaker A: Yeah. He could be a bad news guy. Based on his experience. He could. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:43:39] Speaker A: He had it pretty rough. [00:43:40] Speaker B: All his friends are dead. It's rough. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Yeah. But I never really thought about it like that. I know all this stuff when you say it so bluntly like that. [00:43:54] Speaker B: Before we go, too. Ash Wednesday's coming up. We want to invite everybody out. If you're in central Oregon on noon on Ash Wednesday.