John Week 11

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming, that's Evan Earwicker, and over in the corner is Lindsay. Avocado hands Parnell. [00:00:23] Speaker B: That makes my hands sound disgusting. [00:00:26] Speaker A: What does it make him sound like? Little squishy. [00:00:29] Speaker B: Ew. Disgusting. Yes. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Squishy hands. [00:00:31] Speaker C: Yeah. You've had tableside guacamole at restaurants, but what about in the office? Lindsay comes by and just makes guacamole room by room. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Okay. The reason you have to shoot. Here we go. Look how cute. They're hand warmers. [00:00:43] Speaker C: So explain for people just listening, not watching. What are you holding? [00:00:46] Speaker B: They're hand warmers. And you put them together. They're magnetic. It's an avocado. And then you pull them apart, and it's a little smiley face avocado with the pit in the middle. [00:00:54] Speaker A: They are really cute. [00:00:55] Speaker B: They're so cute. And they do a great job of warming the hands. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Cutest hand warmers I've ever seen. [00:01:00] Speaker C: Yeah. Now, do you put hand warmers inside gloves, typically, or pockets? Is that what pockets is? Great. I don't use, like, the sandy ones, you mean? [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Or what's in those? [00:01:10] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:01:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it's like a chemical. Like a chemical reaction that creates heat. This is what you plug them in. [00:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. They're rechargeable. They've got three settings, and they get warm so fast. They're awesome. [00:01:22] Speaker A: We have one that's pretty big. It's just one. And it's a Zippo. And I always feel a little funny if people see me hanging onto it just because it looks like the biggest lighter. [00:01:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Ever. [00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Big silver Zippo written on the side. [00:01:38] Speaker C: Cigarettes and pastoral meetings all day long. Yeah. [00:01:41] Speaker A: I'm sitting in my son's cold baseball game, you know, with this giant lighter that I just won't let go of for whatever reason. [00:01:47] Speaker C: You know, I think a lot of, like, pastors, like, thinks, like, the CS Lewis. Like, smoking a cigar and talking theology is cool. You don't. You don't see as many leaning into, like, the James Dean. Like, we're gonna, you know, put a leather jacket on and smoke a cigarette together. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah. What is that? Why is the pipe so holy compared to the rest? [00:02:07] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Because it is, like, widely accepted. You see those pictures, man? It's. Yeah, it's CS Lewis. [00:02:12] Speaker C: And what is a cigarette if not a little cigar? Yes. [00:02:18] Speaker A: A little pipe that exists all on its own. Yeah. I don't know. [00:02:22] Speaker C: Yeah, well, anyway. But we did decide. We talked the other day about how you run really hot, and so we can never rely on. If you say, oh, it's too hot in this room, we have to disregard it. And, Lindsey, you're the other extreme. [00:02:34] Speaker B: I run very cold. Yes. [00:02:35] Speaker A: I can't believe you're using hand warmers inside. [00:02:38] Speaker B: I've been cold all morning, you guys. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Really? [00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah, man. Sorry. [00:02:42] Speaker A: I was so hot in that room that we had the first meeting in that conference room. [00:02:45] Speaker B: Gwen said it was hot for your meeting too. [00:02:47] Speaker A: I feel like the atmosphere changed when I walked in. So who judges the temperature then? Is it Justin? [00:02:55] Speaker C: Well, Justin is so obsessed with saving [00:02:57] Speaker B: money, I vetoed Justin. [00:02:58] Speaker C: He can't be trusted either, because he's gonna be like, yeah, it's totally fine. And he's watching the meter, the digital meter ticking up, so he can't be trusted. [00:03:08] Speaker A: And then depending on the season, either Lindsay or I will be mad at him because I need him to spend that money in the summer. [00:03:13] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:14] Speaker B: And I need him to spend that money in the winter. [00:03:17] Speaker C: Okay, so we need to p. We need to pick somebody. Maybe it's me. Yeah. I'm probably the most neutral in this room. There's got to be people that are more solid as far as to rely on. I don't know if I'm as self aware about temperature as some people. [00:03:34] Speaker A: I think you care more about the whole, though. I think Lindsay and I have proved that it can hit a point where both of us are like, I don't really care how everybody else in the room is feeling right now, because this is kind of an emergency. [00:03:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Maybe. Maybe I'm the guy. I remember I was walking our mayor back to the room where we recorded a podcast with her on this podcast. And this is before we switched over our thermostats. And so we walked through the first hallway, and it's just ice cold. I mean, ice cold. Like a freezer. Walk in freezer. And then we pass through a doorway, and it's just, like, very, very hot. And she said, well, well, that can't be very efficient, can it? [00:04:14] Speaker A: The mayor. [00:04:15] Speaker C: The mayor. I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, Ms. Madam Mayor. I'm so sorry. [00:04:18] Speaker A: We'll do better. We're trying. [00:04:21] Speaker C: The very first thing out of her mouth is she's calling us out for our energy loss. One of the biggest buildings in town. Yeah, yeah. And the building inspector came by immediately. No, she didn't send anybody. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Oh, I just how do you know you're cold? What's the first thing? Is it like your fingertips? [00:04:39] Speaker B: Silly question. My whole body feels cold. [00:04:41] Speaker A: No, it does not. You get indicators first. Right? [00:04:46] Speaker B: I feel cold. I don't know. My teeth start chattering. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Indicators? Oh, yes. The index finger is immediately like an [00:04:55] Speaker A: overwhelming feeling of cold. [00:04:57] Speaker B: I get like a chill. Like it's. Yeah. [00:04:59] Speaker A: It's not like on your neck or something? [00:05:00] Speaker B: No. Do you get real hot on your neck? [00:05:03] Speaker A: Oh, no. This whole line of questioning is clearly just me now. When I. When I get hot, I feel it in my eyebrows. That's always the first spot. Yeah, I sweat right here, right across [00:05:14] Speaker B: uniform first, before anything else. Sweat in your eyebrows? [00:05:17] Speaker A: Sweat in my eyebrows. I can feel it. It's like the humidity just starts to happen right there, and then it fairly quickly goes to the rest of my body, I suppose. [00:05:26] Speaker C: As you guys keep talking, I realize, oh, yeah, I probably am the right person because none of this rings a bell at all. Like, what are you guys talking about? It doesn't. You never. I don't. I don't run over hot and I don't run overly cold. Like, we keep our house, like, nice for you at like a 65 degrees in the winter, so pretty cool. [00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. [00:05:46] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:05:46] Speaker A: You're speaking my language. [00:05:47] Speaker C: And then in the summer, I feel like probably 74. [00:05:50] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. [00:05:52] Speaker B: That's quite warm in the summer. [00:05:53] Speaker C: That's summer, though. Like, you're outside and it's 83 coming inside. 74 feels pretty good. [00:06:00] Speaker A: So you're just unregulated in the summer, right? You're not turning anything on? [00:06:04] Speaker C: No, I am one with the environment. I just roll with what I'm saying. What the Lord gives. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Open the windows in the summer and call it. [00:06:11] Speaker C: No, no, no. AC is running, but it's, It's. It's bringing it down. It's not like over always 72 year [00:06:18] Speaker A: round, but the edge is 72 to 74. If you're going to take the edge off, you got to go to 72. You think 74 is so. [00:06:24] Speaker C: Oh, man, it's so no AC when your house is like 81. 82. Oh, that's. That's awful. [00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah, you guys are kind of. You get a lot of trees and stuff, though. Probably stays naturally, fairly reasonable. And you're tucked into the hill there. [00:06:38] Speaker C: There's no hill, but sure, aren't you? Have you ever been to my house? [00:06:42] Speaker A: Ben, shut up. [00:06:43] Speaker C: There's no hill. [00:06:44] Speaker A: In the evenings, the sun goes behind. [00:06:47] Speaker C: Oh, like Aubrey Butte. Aubrey Butte? Yeah, the butte. Yes. I thought you meant we were up against a hill. I'm like, no, [00:06:56] Speaker A: you know, the giant hill out your front door. [00:06:59] Speaker C: You are confusing me with another one of your co pastors. [00:07:02] Speaker A: Cause in the evening at our house, it is just a full sunblock in the summer. [00:07:09] Speaker C: Yeah. We don't get that as much. [00:07:11] Speaker A: My doorknobs are. [00:07:12] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. That's terrible. [00:07:14] Speaker A: It's crazy. [00:07:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:07:16] Speaker A: And so there's like an hour and a half where you gotta figure out what you're gonna do. You gotta close all the blinds and [00:07:21] Speaker C: turn up the ac and you have solar panels. So that's probably pretty good for the generating electricity. Yeah, yeah. [00:07:27] Speaker A: And electricity bills, you guys. As we were out of electricity bills for a couple years with solar, and then we disconnected everything for the. For the remodel. Oh, boy. We got a couple real electric bills. Yikes. [00:07:41] Speaker C: What do you. Let's just compare electric bills. [00:07:43] Speaker A: What? [00:07:44] Speaker C: What? What are you hitting? [00:07:45] Speaker A: I think the first one we had was like 370. [00:07:47] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. That's horrible. What are you doing? [00:07:51] Speaker A: Everything is electric in our house. [00:07:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, so you're running hot water on electric. You're running. What else? [00:08:00] Speaker A: My parents are just running everything. [00:08:02] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker A: And so they have their own, like, little house connect to our house, which is part. [00:08:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And if anyone's running little electric space heaters. I know those. [00:08:09] Speaker A: Mom and dad are running those. [00:08:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:11] Speaker A: Crazy. [00:08:12] Speaker C: That'll do it right there. [00:08:13] Speaker A: We installed one of those little fireplace things too that's like decorative, but kicks out some heat if you turn it on. Don't turn that on. [00:08:18] Speaker C: Wow. [00:08:19] Speaker A: It's like five bucks a minute or something like that. It's crazy. Yeah. [00:08:21] Speaker C: We will hit 200. And I'm like, oh, this is terrible. Three, 370. Yeah. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Oh, I know. [00:08:27] Speaker C: Terrible. [00:08:27] Speaker A: Gotta hook those solar panels back up, make our money right away. [00:08:30] Speaker C: I just love the fact that someone's listening and being like, what are they gonna talk about? Like, what they preach on? And we're just going off on electricity. [00:08:36] Speaker A: No, everyone's listening right now going, yeah, that's exactly right. [00:08:41] Speaker C: So I saw in the Oregon legislature, they're trying to pass a bill that would allow diy, like, plug in solar panels. [00:08:51] Speaker A: Really? [00:08:51] Speaker C: So, like, in some other states and then in Europe, they have ones where you can just like hang them on your balcony and then just plug them right into your wall and it offsets by up to like, 30%. [00:09:02] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:09:02] Speaker C: Without having to talk to your utility, you don't pay anything. You just buy it for 200 bucks and plug it in. [00:09:07] Speaker A: That's great. [00:09:08] Speaker C: Would be great. [00:09:08] Speaker A: What's the downside? [00:09:09] Speaker C: They say, like, particularly unsafe firefighters are worried it'll block balconies for egress. [00:09:15] Speaker A: And somebody says egress one more time, [00:09:20] Speaker C: egress will be the end of our sanity around here. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Big deal. [00:09:26] Speaker C: Egress lighting. Yeah, it turns out it's a big deal. [00:09:28] Speaker A: I was thinking about that when I decided to become a senior pastor of a large church. You know, how much time do I get to spend talking about egress? Sometimes it's like the whole week, you guys. Like, we sit in a Monday morning and we talk about the message for the next week, and then we have this, and then it's egress for the rest of the week. [00:09:47] Speaker C: Oh, terrible insanity. I'm just. I'm shocked if anyone's still listening to this conversation. Wow, this is dry. Oh, yikes. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Dry. This is great. Yeah, we need these little opportunities to talk about the real stuff. [00:10:02] Speaker C: Oh, you have an electric car, too, don't you? Yeah. Okay, so that's probably added to your bill question, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. [00:10:08] Speaker A: We just do a little drip charger. We don't have any more than that. [00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah, but that's. I remember we had an electric car for a hot minute, and it did drive up the bill. [00:10:15] Speaker A: But when we were in the remodel, we were taking it down to Pacific Power the car. Because they have a charger out front just plugging that baby in. [00:10:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Is it free? [00:10:23] Speaker A: Leaving it for the night? Yeah. [00:10:24] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Free charger. Wow. I shouldn't have said that. I won't tell you what street it's on. Yeah. Plug that thing in during the night, walk back again in the morning. [00:10:32] Speaker C: It's great to have one within walking distance for free. [00:10:35] Speaker A: And then we got the City Works building down there. Now that's got a bunch of stuff. Wow. If you can find the Pacific Power in the City Works building, you might be near where I live. [00:10:44] Speaker C: How will we ever figure this out? [00:10:47] Speaker A: He's like, no, man, let's charge it at home. It's cool. [00:10:50] Speaker C: Oh, okay. So this past week, Pastor Josh spoke. We're cruising through towards the end of John, he talked about this concept of having peace in a troubled world. It's the famous, famous portion of Scripture where Jesus is at the last supper. And it's this discourse that is the longest section of Jesus words all strung together that we have in the Gospels. And, you know, it was an interesting day to be talking about peace in a troubled world, which has been the title for months, in light of, you know, the US is at war again and the Middle east is in deep conflict. And so, yeah, when we talk about these things, I feel like it hits a little bit harder of like, do we really believe that? Do we really believe God is offering peace to the world? And I think this is true. Maybe anytime we hit something that is maybe pertinent based on what's happening in our church, in our lives or in the world, when it runs up against teaching, that's very pertinent. And then you kind of have to weigh, and I don't know if you've experienced this with your sermons, but where you kind of have to weigh, like, oh, do I really believe this? I can say it safely from a distance, but when something's happening that really causes me to question that, I don't know, it can feel harder to preach or like, do we address that? I guess. [00:12:16] Speaker A: Well, that's why you did. Right. You ended up taking a moment during the offering moment for a couple of services or at the very end of the first one, you talked about that. What was your goal in doing that then? Because you, I don't think you issued a statement. Right. Kind of thing. We've done that before. So what was your motivation behind that? Just, hey, we're, we're aware of how this can feel. [00:12:36] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. After listening to Josh preach the first time and he didn't address, nor did we ask him to, the situation in the Middle east, it just felt like to not talk about something that is such a world changing sequence of events that's happening in real time that is so tied to the theme of the week, like peace in a troubled world. And this fresh conflict has broken out and engulfed a lot of the Middle East. To not address it at all feels like people would be sitting there like, are they going to talk about the fact that, you know, we're watching all this conflict happen? So I felt like it was, it was necessary. Otherwise it feels like, why are we avoiding talking about that? Or. And we had just heard a couple days before some of the things that our denomination is involved in in the Middle East. We have churches in Iran, we have churches in Egypt and UAE and Israel and elsewhere. And so we have people on the ground that are now moving into these areas that are deeply affected by the war from whatever side, whoever's, you know, Iran, U.S. missiles, all that and rushing in with aid and medicine and food. And so I think it was an easy way to talk about how we are connected to some networks within Our denomination that are doing good work and be able to pray for them. So, yeah, I guess didn't feel like we needed to make a big statement about the nature of war or just war. I mean, we could. We could go on and we've had whole sermons on the place for just war and seeing everything through the lens of the Sermon on the Mount. And yet I think of CS Lewis when he writes his essay on why I'm not a pacifist. Why he's not is because he's sitting in London during the Blitz. And that changes when it's not at a distance. I think you come to have maybe different opinions than when it's a world away. So all that is in there, but that wasn't the moment yesterday, I don't think, to sit down and say, okay, we're going to spend 40 minutes and talk about the nature of just war. Right? [00:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And this one, especially the complex pieces of it that, you know, I approach everything when it comes to this level of violence, especially of, like, I hate this and I think God hates this. And then when you get down into the details of it, the pieces that everyone's concerned about or paying attention to, a lot of celebration of the killing of a leader that people experienced an incredible amount of violence from and are starting to see potentially the seeds of freedom in front of them and how that's interpreted. And then everything where people are talking about the economy and then oil prices and then this impact and just general loss of life. There's so many pieces to it, which draws me back to the text, which makes me feel hopeful in what Jesus is saying in peace, in a troubled world. And it also feels really conflicting and frustrating that Jesus is talking in this way and then the miraculous thing happens and he's resurrected from the dead. And we're still in the middle of a very troubled world, you know, and that was part of Jesus promise too, that in this world we'll have trouble. But there's just this. That's such a hard thing to feel again, because that's what I feel like as somebody that's, you know, read a fair amount and watched a good handful of documentaries. I'm like, we're just doing this again. They're doing it again and again and again and again. How do we never break out of this cycle of wars and violence? And what does Jesus's peace, if that's really what it is, what does it have to say about all of these things? And what does peace actually mean in the context of what we're hoping for as Christians. [00:16:22] Speaker C: Yeah. Why don't I go back to our Advent week? Was it you, Lindsay, that spoke on peace and how it's not in spite of conflict and trouble that the Prince of Peace arrives. And when he does, he doesn't immediately just banish conflict, but he brings something in the midst of it. Right? [00:16:42] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I used the example of scripture. When Jesus is asleep on the boat, you know, the storm is raging. Right. The storm doesn't cease when Jesus is at peace and he's, you know, able to nap during this crazy life threatening storm. And what he says to the disciples is, my peace I give to you, not as the world gives. And I think, you know, it's that tension like we talked about last week of living in a very broken world and having to reconcile the promises and the words of Christ in the midst of it. But I do think it's possible to experience a supernatural peace in the midst of terrible, horrible circumstances. [00:17:27] Speaker C: Yeah. And it continues to be our job. Right. To not shy away from the promises of God when they hit real life. Right. That's. I feel like that's probably job number one is like, don't talk to me about healing when everyone's healthy and then stop when someone gets sick. Don't talk to me about peace when the world is largely at peace. Talk to me about it when conflict breaks out. Because otherwise, what are the promises of God if just, you know, like a weather vane that just measures where we're currently at and we find the things that affirm how the world seems to work and be. Jesus is so subversive in all his teachings and all his modeling of this new kingdom. They cut against what's actually happening and give us hope that what we see is not all there is and what we hope for is beyond what is currently happening. And so, and Josh did a really good job of tying the idea of hope to the idea of peace. That to have the peace of God reign and rule in our hearts, we have to have a hope that what is in the news today isn't all there is. And I think for all of us. I know I can get really cynical and the cynic in me just kind of said, well, we better come to grips with the fact that the world is always going to be a horrible, dude, violent place. [00:18:58] Speaker A: It's a lot safer in that mindset. [00:19:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Do we. Do you guys hide behind cynicism? [00:19:05] Speaker A: Do I. [00:19:07] Speaker C: Do we keep ourselves safe from whether it be looking stupid or being disappointed or because cynicism looks out and says, see? Told you. Yes, everything sucks still. Yes. [00:19:19] Speaker A: I love that feeling. As terrible as it is, I don't like being the person that's surprised that something terrible happened again. It feels ignorant in that moment of, like, I clearly haven't been paying attention because I thought this was all gonna be great, even though thousands of years of history has told me that it's not, that it's gonna be bad again, and that you're gonna have bad actors and bad politicians and angry this and wars are gonna break out. And I wanna be the person that says, nope, I know better than all of that. And that's where discipleship comes in and makes that piece really challenging. Right? Cause it's exactly what you guys are saying. It's holding both of these things in this understanding of how the. And holding onto the promises of Jesus. The promises of Jesus just sometimes in those contexts make me feel really stupid and ignorant. That's frustrating to me. I don't like that feeling because I don't think about myself as that kind of person. And yet the promises of God almost make me feel like I'm obligated into that place. And that's where the real formation of the discipleship happens, I think, is actually inside of those pieces. How do we hold onto the promises of God and the truth of them? Talking about this personally with my dad has Parkinson's, and nobody believes more for healing than my dad. And the Parkinson's persists, you know? And so even practically, we're trying to be like, here's the next steps that we have to take in order to keep you healthy and alive and happy. And those movements are also not a detriment to the faith that all of us have for your healing. And how do we exist in both of those places? And like, to be honest, like, that feels really unfair some days. Having to do that just feels really unfair. Because the cynicism, which is realism, which is practicality, also in some of these cases, is like, no, this is the safe way to do it. We're not going to think about that. And by the way, I want to stop praying like that too, because that's too hard now to keep my hopes up and engaging in this conversation in this way. So I'd rather just get deep down to the practicality and stop caring about the rest of the. And that's not it either. That's not what I want, and that's not what dad wants or deserves. But when you're punched in the face with it in a really real way, like Parkinson's like war in the Middle east again. Like all these things that we feel like are fairly predictable. Having hope is just hard. And that's because of the long term. You know what I would say to the disciples in the story of the boat of my peace I give to you. And the storm stopped, you know, he wasn't like, I know, just keep rowing because I'm gonna give you some peace and you keep suffering and being afraid in the middle of all. He stopped the storm too. That doesn't mean all wars ever stop forever. And I could talk and chase my tail for a long time in the middle of all this, you know. [00:22:07] Speaker C: Sure. I just know that I know where cynicism would lead me and probably all of us. And it's to a place completely missing any imagination. We talk about Christian imagination, prophetic imagination. Cynicism has no time for that. And I think it will lead us to small spaces where we can predict that Jesus isn't going to come through because we've refused to go with him. [00:22:32] Speaker A: Like a self fulfilling prophecy. [00:22:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And I think about that story of Jesus on the boat and I think about him in the story in John where he walks in the water. And I think about all those disciples that were with him at the feeding of the 5,000 who said, we can't hang with this guy, he's a weirdo. Eat my flesh, drink my blood. Yikes were out. And it's the ones that actually stuck with him through the cynicism and the practicality seemingly no longer part of Jesus because he's saying these crazy things. And the disciples that stick with him somehow experience this supernatural thing. And I wonder if in our fear of disappointment we opt to do the sensible thing, which is to say, well, that was cool, we had some good times. Jesus, I don't know if I can follow you out there. And it's not that we never experienced Jesus, but maybe we're, I don't know, hiding in safe places instead of living that life of faith. And that's hard for me because I'm not the overly excited, always encouraged, let's go take the next hill kind of faith filled leader. Always. I am more cynical and safety seeking, but I don't know, I feel challenged. And even last night, Lindsey and Dustin, you guys were there at Essentials. We're talking about what we believe about the Holy Spirit's work and healing. And when Jesus says you're going to do greater things than these, because I go to the Father and what he's pointing to is he's going to send the Holy Spirit, that's going to empower us to do stuff. And in the moment, I felt really compelled that I need to tell people we believe in the work of God, in supernatural things, we believe in healing. And there are days when we don't. We don't see it happen. And we do both, you know, and even saying we believe that it would be easier to be like. And we agree with all those streams of Christianity that say that what the apostles experience is no longer available to us. I mean, that's safer because then we don't get anyone's hopes up. Right? But there's this. I don't know, in the back of my soul, like this spark of don't, yeah, don't. Don't give up on Jesus. Yet. [00:24:58] Speaker A: In that split moment where so many of the followers of Jesus walked away and the disciples were left. In these times that we're talking about, I have given myself permission to say the words of Peter, but with all kinds of different tones. You know, where he says, where else will we go? You have the words of life. And sometimes it feels very right in my life to say that with real, like real reverent man. Where else would we go, God? And then other times I give myself permission to be really angrily saying that, well, where else am I going to go? I burned everything else down and I'm here now, and where else am I going to go? But just sticking with you, you jerk. Like, you keep chasing everybody off, and I'm not happy about this. I want to find something else to do, but I can't because I'm with you and coming to grips with kind of being okay with the different forms that that takes. I don't know if it's always right, but I think it's always kept me close, which is the thing to me, you know? [00:25:53] Speaker C: Yeah, that's. That's a really good point and something I haven't considered with that line of Peter's. I've always read it, you know, more that reverent, like, where else can we go? Lord, only you. We've seen all the have the words of life. But there is a sense potentially in Peter who's saying, like, Jesus, we gave everything up to follow you. What else do we have to fall back on? It's all gone. We've put everything in your basket. So figure this out. [00:26:19] Speaker A: You better do something. [00:26:19] Speaker C: Yeah, where else are we gonna go? Like, we have no plan B, man, that's interesting. Yeah. [00:26:26] Speaker A: And I felt that way, and I don't Feel bad about feeling that way anymore. I think I used to. That it felt like a betrayal of my discipleship or something. But no, I like saying those words and saying them honestly. And again, it keeps me close. So I think it's. It works. Ultimately, Lindsay, you hide behind cynicism. [00:26:49] Speaker B: No, no, I'm a stupid optimist. [00:26:53] Speaker A: No, that's good. Not stupid. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I'm a live in denial, it's not that bad kind of girl. So that I can cope with the realities of the world. Yeah, I try to find the silver lining in it all. And, yeah, the challenge or the invitation for me has been. I've said it a few times on this podcast, is to pull my head up out of the sand, like, to become aware, to not look away, to stay engaged as a participant in this world and also in the kingdom of God. I think I have a responsibility to do that. So, yeah, I swing wildly to the other end of the spectrum and just. I can find the bright side of pretty much anything if you, if you let me. [00:27:43] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:27:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Jealousy. [00:27:47] Speaker A: How do you describe it? Sounds wonderful. [00:27:49] Speaker C: And the. Yeah, the. The cynic and the denier, I think. Yeah. Those are two totally different approaches to hardship. Right. [00:27:59] Speaker B: In life, to coping. [00:28:00] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, they're coping mechanisms. Right. For both. And I don't know, maybe in the Last Supper we get Jesus effectively saying, stop with your coping mechanisms, even as they're about to cope in major ways. Peter's going to deny Christ because that's easier than walking willingly to be killed with him. So he's going to cope by saying, I don't know what you're talking about. Never met him. Which is funny because surely they had all seen him with Jesus. But yeah, we have these, these coping mechanisms because life's pretty rough, you know, And I'm not even saying, like, my life is rough. I'm saying, like the world is not. Is not pleasant and predictable and comfy. Right. And so you got to do something with that. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker C: And I think the Christian tradition would say, yeah, you. You have to have Christ, otherwise you're not going to be able to hold that. And I. [00:28:59] Speaker A: It's funny, the relationship with the optimistic that I have is first, I'm a little jealous that people can feel that way while I'm feeling cynical. And then the other is, I. I've noticed in my. For me personally, I don't like feeling dumb, which is what lends itself to the cynicism. But also then I find myself in a cynical moment spending time with the Optimists. And they're talking to me in these ways of like, but here's what could happen in the Christian imagination. All this stuff. And I'm looking at them. Don't talk to me like I'm stupid. Don't do that. It feels very personal to me, and that's something I've really had to overcome with. And I've been thinking a lot about our conversation on the Holy Spirit from a couple weeks ago, because it's like I feel something very different inside my body in those conversations. And I have come to the conclusion maybe I reserve the right to change it. [00:29:54] Speaker C: That. [00:29:56] Speaker A: That believing that God works in these beautiful, miraculous ways and all these things feels and sounds to me like people are looking at me and going, you're stupid and you don't understand this. And I'm going, no, that can't be right. I'm not stupid. I think I've got life experience, and I've been through some of these things where I feel like I have some of this knowledge. And then sometimes that translates then again to, like, Scripture. So then scripture is telling me these things, and I'm even reading it, and I'm like, don't talk to me like I'm stupid. And it's such a weird way to walk through faith, through the world. I'm having my own therapy session for myself now. [00:30:33] Speaker C: Well, I think why it feels that way. I think it is when Jesus, you know, has the kids and he's like, unless you become, like, one of these, you're not going to enter the kingdom of heaven. Yes. And to that we would say, jesus, stop talking to me like I'm five. Yeah, I'm a grown up. Yep, that's exactly what. And he says, no, you're missing it. Like, unless you become like this, unless you engage that part of you that can still have wonder, unless you can engage that part of you that can still hope against hope, you're going to miss it just because you'll be locked in your own cynicism and you'll miss me when I'm walking by. And I'm not saying this to you. I'm saying it to me like, no, I get it. Don't allow that cynicism, Evan, to completely block your view of what is happening in God's good world. You know, and it's. That's really hard. That's really hard to do. And I go back to our. I think we. The title of the episode was like, T Bone of Norwich, if you remember that. [00:31:32] Speaker A: Yes. [00:31:34] Speaker C: But we talked about Julian of Norwich, who is in Norwich, and 70% of the city dies because of the plague. And in the middle of the plague, she writes, all will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things will be well. It's like, okay, let's tap into that. I don't think that's denial. I don't think that's. That's like, well, we still got 30%. I think we're doing pretty good. That's what I was saying. We can rebuild civilization with 30%. It's gonna be okay. [00:32:07] Speaker B: You're not wrong. [00:32:09] Speaker C: And they did rebuild civilization with 30%. It's not that. And it's not cynicism, that's for sure. I mean, whatever that is, it's not denial. It's not cynicism, and it's hope. In this crazy world, if I'm sitting [00:32:27] Speaker A: next to that person saying that in that moment, I am angry as I'll get out. That's the character I play. I hear that and go, don't you dare. Not today. Nope. We're just going to be miserable right now. I don't want to hear your optimism. I don't want to hear about your imagination. I want to hear about rebuilding civilization. You need to shut it. And we need to fix something or whatever. We need to address the situation really practical way and find how we can work. Because I'm not opposed to the hard work in the middle of those situations. It's optimism feels like poison to me, depending on what mood I'm in. But you're right. That's the right. Because I also agree. I don't hear that. And it doesn't sound ignorant to me. It just sounds hard. And that's where a lot of faith hits me sometimes. You know, it. It's. I don't disagree. I believe in my soul. And I'm also like. And I don't want to hear that right now because that's too hard to hold. [00:33:27] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, it is. [00:33:30] Speaker A: I'm just gonna play the heavy. This whole podcast. [00:33:35] Speaker C: I just, I. I hope, um, you know, like, talk about making it heavy, like, at the end of your life, right? Like your final breath. Are you angry that it's come down to this? Or do you, with your final breath, hold on to hope and imagination? You know, And I think that's all determined by now. It's all determined by what we allow to be our worldview, you know? Yeah. Is. Is God good? Is he not? I could probably find evidence to support both. So we're going to kind of have to choose what we consider the most important. Right. [00:34:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And who wants to be bitter at the end with that last breath. Right. Not me. Just all the way up till the end. No, you're right. That's totally beautiful. And I. I've been blessed over the last few years where I've wrestled with a lot of this most urgently to find those moments of wonder still. They're still very much available and out there. And some of it is just about taking time to just notice it. [00:34:42] Speaker C: Right. [00:34:44] Speaker A: And that was probably the combination of. [00:34:45] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Family, health. My house was a desolate, awful mess for a long time. And actually I felt some of that. Literally the physical work of. I built a retaining wall and planted trees in my house this last weekend for the first time I planted anything in three years. [00:35:02] Speaker C: Probably good for the soul. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah. There was a soulful piece to it. It felt that wonderful combination of beauty and exhaustion is a pretty cool place to be. And I haven't visited. I think that in a little while there's like, I'm going to go work out, try to make myself feel better and healthier and that's great. The combo of making something and planting something should probably visit that space a lot more often than I have been. [00:35:28] Speaker C: Yeah. And that's kind of why, you know, we built a garden here at the church. Not real practical as far as the amount of food it produces, but this idea of we have to be people that put our hands in soil and grow things. And that has to be the metaphor more than any of the other metaphors that we maybe have clung to in the past. Not just our church, but, you know, where we're raising an army and all these things that are. Yeah. There you can find them in scripture. But this idea of shoulder to shoulder in community, like putting our hands in the soil and seeing God grow things is, I think it's a core metaphor for us. Right. And I think that speaks to our soul health too. If we see ourselves as ruthless, you know, people on mission that are carrying out some kind of like slice and dice the works of the devil thing, we're going to have a pretty aggressive stance. Yeah. In this life. If we see ourselves as those who. Who see beautiful things grow, I think it. It postures us in a more gentle space maybe. [00:36:33] Speaker A: I noticed that when I went to Melrose Abbey, which is the beginning of the St. Cuthbert's Way walk that we're doing. So when I went myself, I did the. The audio tour of Melrose Abbey and it tells you the whole story of the place. It doesn't just tell you about the little pieces of the grounds. And it starts off like a lot of these places did, where it's this place of worship. Yes. But then there's this huge intersection of agriculture, and the sheep are over here, and they brewed the beer in this area and they did all these different things. And then you can kind of see as it grew in power. Right. It took on a little bit more politics, and it followed the course of a lot of churches at the time that began to kind of manipulate and take advantage of the community. And as that was happening, and it became kind of this more deeply quote, unquote, sacred religious kind of structure, the agriculture began to go away, and then all of a sudden, it was overwhelmed by corruption, and then it ended up in ruins kind of as a result. I don't wonder if that's a great metaphor for what you're talking about. This temptation to become some kind of, like, religious force. And then we lose the simple tilling of the soil and making beautiful things. That's kind of what's at the very core, the foundation of what we were about. [00:37:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's great. Whenever we become, like, we're a think tank now. Yeah. A Christian think tank, we've. Yeah. We've lost. We've lost the plot. Yeah, right. Yeah. And agriculture as a concept. I don't know. I don't know if we actually need to become gardeners to do this. Well, but if our whole Christian discipleship is aimed at the slow and steady work of seeing things grow, it'll just make us more like Jesus. I believe that. And I love all the imagery, the garden imagery, in the story of God, right from the beginning in the Garden of Eden to the end, where the waters are flowing in life from the throne. And then right in the middle, where Mary Magdalene mistakes Jesus for the gardener on Easter morning. And it's this picture of however Jesus is showing up physically after the resurrection. He just looks so much like a gardener, like everything about him. And think about all the ways in glory that Jesus, the resurrected Jesus, could reveal himself in that moment, like an angel, like a warrior, like a emperor. He looks like a gardener. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah, it's cool. [00:39:02] Speaker C: I think it speaks to what matters. [00:39:05] Speaker A: I'm hearing sheep down on the swale. Is that what you're proposing? [00:39:07] Speaker C: Yes. And we again have a photo shepherding. We have a photo of you dressed as a shepherd that we could bring back. You still have that first week. Do you still have that cloak and headdress? No. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Casey and Amelia Wouldn't let me have it, you guys. I was one of the wise men in that video shoot. I was a shooter Shepherd. I just thought, this is like what you do at Westside. But. But no, I was being taken advantage of. [00:39:31] Speaker C: Turns out you just had a nice beard. And so they were like, we'll use him. [00:39:35] Speaker A: We will use him so bad. We shot for hours out at sun river in the big hall over there to do the wise men piece. [00:39:42] Speaker C: Remember Herod? Yeah. [00:39:44] Speaker A: And then out in the cold with several people I still do not know. [00:39:48] Speaker C: So funny. [00:39:49] Speaker A: I saw him the other day, the other Shepherd. [00:39:51] Speaker C: I think some of those visuals. Cause I watched that video maybe last year just to see what we had done, and some of the visuals held up. But I would. I would call that way overproduced. And the final was a little bit cheesy, which I know that's rude because I wasn't involved in that at the time, but it also was produced by our church, so I feel like we can criticize. [00:40:13] Speaker A: Did it go with live music? [00:40:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:16] Speaker B: Oh, I don't. [00:40:17] Speaker A: I felt like there was a live performance. You were here the whole time I was here, right? [00:40:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. [00:40:24] Speaker C: Yeah. Marco Ringel was Herod. [00:40:26] Speaker B: I don't remember this, you guys. I blocked it out of my. [00:40:28] Speaker A: Really. It was when we were doing. It wasn't Christmas Eve. What was the other. [00:40:33] Speaker C: It was Christmas experience. Yeah. Yeah, it was an experience. That video. [00:40:38] Speaker A: How did that start? It's like a Christmas Eve service. Not on Christmas Eve. [00:40:42] Speaker C: I think the idea was to do full production, but not put the pressure on Christmas Eve when everybody wants to be with their families, to try to get choirs and production team. [00:40:53] Speaker A: You guys want to reintroduce that creative arts? [00:40:56] Speaker B: Lord, no. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Sounds great. [00:40:57] Speaker C: Christmas Eve. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Christian imagination, guys. [00:41:01] Speaker B: Christian burnout. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:41:05] Speaker C: Was it a Wednesday night? I feel like we did a Wednesday night. [00:41:08] Speaker B: It was when we had first Wednesdays. [00:41:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:10] Speaker B: So we did that on the first Wednesday of December. [00:41:12] Speaker C: You know, it was like a Christmas performance. [00:41:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:14] Speaker C: Yeah. But you market to the community, and it was. It was good. Nice. But anyway, probably won't do it again. [00:41:19] Speaker A: Okay. Oh, that might have been the last one, huh? I don't remember another one outside. [00:41:23] Speaker B: I got to go find that video. Should I link it in the show notes, everybody? [00:41:26] Speaker C: Yeah, if you can find it, link it in the show. [00:41:28] Speaker A: Definitely do that. [00:41:28] Speaker C: I bet they won't know which one is somewhere. Know which ones You. You look really surprised. And you're a shepherd. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Tell you when my beard was real long a few weeks ago, I Went to the gym, was partnered with a guy doing some deadlift workout or whatever. And like all gyms, they're playing, like, house music all the time. So it's a lot of just heavy bass. It's not for me. And whatever Smoke on the Water came on, and this guy that I'm working out with, who's. He's got to be 20 years older than me, he goes, finally, I'm playing some music from our generation. I was like, yeah, totally. That might have been. Been the. The real reason I shaved my beard. [00:42:10] Speaker C: Little kid. Yeah. It was like when I took Jack skiing and. And the guy at the chair lift on the little kitty chairlift goes, all right, step up here, young man, and. And make sure you're standing right next to your grandfather. [00:42:24] Speaker A: You did? [00:42:25] Speaker C: Yep. I'm like, oh, shoot, I look like [00:42:28] Speaker A: a grandpa, I gotta say. [00:42:30] Speaker C: Well, I had a ski mask on. It's these young eyes. Really? You're my selling point. I'll tell you. You're scheming. No hat, bald head. Bald head, white beard. Okay. Yeah, I get it. I get it. Oh, well, yeah. [00:42:45] Speaker A: Oh. [00:42:45] Speaker C: I was gonna say last night because Josh preached in the morning. Some people at our essentials class were like, yeah. Talking about Josh and appreciated what he said. And then I said, you know, and you know, he is a grandfather. They're like, are you kidding me? I thought he was 30 years old. Yeah. Which, I mean, props to Josh getting the opposite treatment in his 50s to be looking 30. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:08] Speaker C: I don't think you and I have that problem, Ben. [00:43:10] Speaker A: No, it's all his optimism. My cynicism is actually having physical. It's taking over physically on my face. What are those signs? The crow's feet's like, how happy you've been. Right. What wrinkles when you're cynical for so long? [00:43:29] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:43:30] Speaker A: It's the ones in the middle, I guess. Yeah, the frowny ones. [00:43:32] Speaker C: What are those in the middle? [00:43:34] Speaker B: 11s. [00:43:35] Speaker A: The 11s? [00:43:35] Speaker C: You call that 11s? [00:43:37] Speaker B: Because it looks like 11s. [00:43:38] Speaker A: Oh, I see. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:39] Speaker A: Nice. I got those. I bet I got plenty of those. You know, being angry. [00:43:46] Speaker C: You know, we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. Guys, I just like to say my [00:43:53] Speaker A: personal justice, that's all. [00:43:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:56] Speaker A: So these 11s are exactly what I should have. [00:44:00] Speaker C: I don't know. Let's see. You're kind of. You get like a horizontal line right there. [00:44:07] Speaker A: What's that? [00:44:08] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't know. [00:44:09] Speaker A: The subtraction. [00:44:12] Speaker C: I think that's because. [00:44:13] Speaker B: Dash. [00:44:14] Speaker A: There it is. [00:44:15] Speaker C: You've been at too many baseball games staring in the sun. [00:44:18] Speaker A: You guys. I do that. Sunglasses. [00:44:21] Speaker C: It's a squint. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Oh, and it gets back to the sweat thing. [00:44:25] Speaker C: Oh, yeah. If your eyebrows are sweaty and then [00:44:27] Speaker A: it just sweats all down around my [00:44:29] Speaker C: eyes onto my nose, those glasses are going to steam up. [00:44:31] Speaker A: You guys know the zits? Like, under the eye? [00:44:34] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:44:35] Speaker A: What's that called? [00:44:37] Speaker C: I don't have them. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Assist. [00:44:41] Speaker C: What is going on? This is observes.