Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message.
In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming, that's Evan Garrison, and that's Lindsey Parnell.
Just trying it on for size.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: So we just had a conversation. We just had a conversation. Yeah, we just had a conversation. So not surprising to anyone. My last name is strange.
Can we say that?
But it's not my family name. Yeah, it's not my family name. My great grandfather was killed by a train at a train crossing.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: Oh, you know, like the details.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, we have a copy of the death certificate.
[00:00:49] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: Yeah, fascinating.
So he was killed by a train in Iowa, and then my grandpa at the time was 2, so he got adopted by his stepfather who had the name ear worker. So we're not even ear workers by blood. We're Garrisons, which is an infinitely less weird last name.
So this was the debate, should we change the name as adults, at least for the sake of our kids, and just figure out all the complexity of changing your name is a 40 something.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Yeah, you would change your name.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: I know.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: The talk has been like, jack could do it, Josiah.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Well, here's the thing. Every time I ever have brought this up, no one ever pushes back like, oh, no, your name's good, man.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: No one.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: I've never had anyone be anything but enthusiastic. Like, oh, you should tell you that today. Like, try to do it before sundown, man. Like, that's the general vibe.
So, you know, if you're going to trouble to change your kids names, just do it all. Just do the whole family.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: It's true, though. We were down having this conversation and I could feel it and you referenced it immediately after I thought it. But I can feel the whole table being like, I've heard it's not that hard to change.
Sounds totally fine. Yeah. This is an efficient process.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: I feel like there's layers and for like the staff, they're like, oh, that'd be so much nicer if we don't have to look at your name on all the documents anymore. You know, like, there's a personal connection to wanting me to have a better name.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: How much would our church grow if you change your name?
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Significant.
[00:02:16] Speaker A: Real question.
It is a funny name. And obviously it goes back to something that wasn't ear wicking. You know, very specific, like tissue wiping sweat off of the earlobe or something like that. Well, sweat. What are other options that you could wick off?
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Well, there are. Have you seen ear candling? They do this, I think It's a pseudo thing. I don't think it's real.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: You light it?
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think. Yeah, it doesn't have any effect, but yeah, it supposedly it's kind of like, you know, not home remedies, but whatever.
And yeah, it draws up impurities from your ears.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: I remember that going around in college. I never did it, but several friends I remember watching lay down on a couch and light what looked like.
What are those snacks that have kind of the. The flaky wafer outside and then like chocolate on the inside.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Oh no.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: I mean, Bugle would be another one, I don't know. But it kind of looked like one of those things. They look like straws, you know, that you light on fire on one end.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: I mean, we looked into it at some point on YouTube just cause of our name or whatever. And I do think it's whatever the thing that you put in your ear, whatever that's made of, it actually reacts to the heat. And so all the impurities that you see are just the thing itself melting. It's not anything coming out of it.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: It doesn't get the wax out or anything.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: I don't think so. I don't think it does anything.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Great times in the dorms at oit. Turns out having a grand old time.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: Oh man. Dorm.
I didn't never lived in dorms, but my best friend lived in the dorms at Corbin University and so I did get some pranks in at Corbin with him because I didn't have that experience for myself, so. But did you? Pranks in the dorms for sure, yeah.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: I was usually instrumental. Not usually the engineer of all of them, the producer, but yeah, instrumental for sure. A lot of we had digital cameras at the time, so I think my phone was still like a Nokia brick.
And there wasn't really cameras and photos so much at the time, but we had digital cameras and there was a lot of running. Start slapping each other on the bare back as hard as possible to get it on camera. And then you would zoom in on the back and see how high you raised the person's skin on the back, how clear of a hand mark you could make.
Again, lots of good times in the OIT dorms. It was great.
It wasn't a great experience. And it also feels like everyone should have a version of that at least somewhere along the way. Kind of like feel like a lot of us agree that everyone should work in food service for a year. You got to know what it feels like to be relying on tips and to Be treated poorly by customers. And like, this is. You should do this. You might be miserable, but it's good for you.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Learn how to drive a stick shift, work in food service, prank in the dorms. Those are the three. Yeah.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Or just that ultra communal living experience.
Even as I'm saying it now, how could I recommend it to somebody? But you should. Absolutely.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: At Corbin, the one I remember that we did was the FBI had just busted a bunch of students at Willamette University, which is also in Salem, for illegal music. It was like, height of Napster, right. When, like, pirating music was.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: And I was a Limewire guy. But that's fine.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Maybe it was Limewire they got busted for. Anyway, and so everyone was on high alert, like, oh, are we next? So we took the phone directory from the school, and then from the car, we called, I don't know, probably 20 names at random, and we. This is probably illegal. I shouldn't even admit this, but since I didn't go to the school, no one would recognize my voice. I posed as somebody from the dean's office and said, hey, you know, as you might know, the FBI, and they've asked us to do an audit. And you've been randomly selected to have your computer audited for illegal music. So we need you to bring your computer down to the computer lab tonight at 7 for an audit. And so we called a bunch of people. Everyone is like, oh, oh, my, no, of course I don't have any illegal music. Everyone did.
And so then there was this little cafe overlooking the computer lab. So we go up there about 6:45, and then just watch as, one by one, these poor kids are carrying their desktop towers.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Oh, my God.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Because this is like early 2000s desktop towers down to the computer lab. So they had to clear out all their music, delete everything, then unplug their entire system and haul it from the dorms across campus to the computer lab, only to find there's no one there.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Fantastic. It was great. They lost all their music.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's the insidious part.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: How long did they stay?
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Oh, just long enough to go in and realize it was a prank. Okay. And then you just watch them. Yeah. Angrily marching off.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: I'm just imagining, like, a group of six guys with these computer towers just sitting in chairs, like, not really talking to each other, but just waiting for
[00:07:20] Speaker B: someone to wait for the FBI to come out. The FBI?
Yeah. No, but I think it was a, you know, it was a righteous prank because it got rid of a lot of pirated music and that was what I was really passionate about. Yeah.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Yeah. A righteous prank. There was a guy at OIT that had.
He just had some high powered equipment or something, and he was doing movies.
And I remember at the time, like, not a lot of people were doing movies, especially at the clip that he was. And it was like something like 10,000 videos or films or something like that. And he actually got busted for real. He was on my baseball team, actually, which is kind of funny.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Just constantly downloading.
[00:07:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't even know at the time. I just don't know how you would have done that.
[00:08:00] Speaker B: And the speed of, like, Internet was so slow back then. Must have taken forever.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: I did the embarrassing tech piece. This is where I grew up. How just small town it was. I remember I signed up on a lease to rent with these three other friends of mine, and I went over to the house for the first time, and they had kind of gotten everything set up somewhere there early to play sports, and they were using the Internet without wires.
And I was completely baffled. I literally. I was so confused by that. I asked one of them, I said, are you on the Internet right now?
Cause I don't see any blue wires coming out of the side. And they looked at me like. I mean, I was several years late, really, to wireless Internet, but I'm asking
[00:08:44] Speaker B: them openly, what is this wee fee?
[00:08:46] Speaker A: How do you do this? A caveman, like poking at the something out of Tarzan.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: So stupid.
[00:08:53] Speaker B: I remember the first time I figured out how to wirelessly print to the printer.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: That was a big deal.
[00:08:59] Speaker B: And I had a laptop in my hand and I'm like, I showed my mom. I was like, look at this mom. And I hit print and it printed. And she goes, I want to be able to do that.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Come up, plug it in.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Yeah. It would be a direct cable, but
[00:09:13] Speaker A: yeah, I mean, when Justin's having an off day, we still have to do that around here. You know, all the. The tech that goes down.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Poor Justin Lindsey. Pranked. Have you ever pranked? Been into pranking people.
[00:09:25] Speaker C: I like a good startle moment.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: Like a jump scare.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Yeah, like jump out and scare. In our house, no one is safe, including myself. Like, my girls live to scare me.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:36] Speaker C: Yeah. But no, I'm not a big prank gal. Other than that.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: Have you seen the.
On social media, the couple that they fill balloons with, like, it looks like flour and water. It's like this paste.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:49] Speaker B: And they're constantly breaking the balloons of paste over each other in their home. And it just makes this horrible Mess. And they laugh and laugh and get tons of views. And I'm like, what is your cleanup? Right? Like, every day from your pranking.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: That's all I can think about when those videos are on is, who's cleaning this up and how long does it take?
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Oh, I can't. It's like the Don't Movie people talk about this, that you can't. You can't have a guy give a girl flowers in a movie because the women in the audience, they say, will stand there and be, like, watching the movie and go, those need to be in water soon, and they'll stop paying attention to the movie in order to. You see, a lot of people give chocolates in movies instead of flowers because it doesn't take away from the thing. That's all I'm doing is thinking about the cleanup in those videos. I'm not watching the pranks. I don't care anymore. When that balloon is massive and it's all over the couch sometimes.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: I don't understand. Oh, I don't understand how that works. It's a side getting old.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: The prank can't be that good.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: They must be making a killing.
So much money from those views. Otherwise it would not be worth it.
[00:10:53] Speaker A: They're looping furniture in. They're just kind of bringing it in as. As needed instead of cleaning up the entire thing.
[00:10:59] Speaker B: I have no idea.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Who wants to clean couches? Oh, my gosh. Cleaning couches. Gross.
The grossest.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Have you ever, in a moment of weakness, considered picking up a couch off the side of the road? Be like, yeah, that would work in my den.
[00:11:15] Speaker A: There have been a couple times where I've been like, that one's not that bad.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: It's what you don't see that's the grossest about somebody else's used couch. That's so gross to them that they put it out on the side of
[00:11:26] Speaker A: the road and they didn't even consider selling it.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: They know how gross it is. You don't know.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: Oh, and even just that moment, you guys know my stomach doesn't turn over a whole lot of things, but for some reason, putting your hands in the cracks of the couch and then moving them back and forth
[00:11:42] Speaker B: on your own couch or one that you've gotten on the side of the road. Oh, yeah. Well,
[00:11:49] Speaker A: you pull over and you get
[00:11:50] Speaker B: out just to do that.
[00:11:53] Speaker A: This is a new video trip.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: I can't resist every time I see a couch.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: So stupid.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: That's disgusting.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: No, I can't handle. I mean, it takes me. If I can't find my keys. That's the last place I'm looking. Cause I just don't. I just don't want to do it.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like reverse. Is it asmr?
One of those things that are so unnerving.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: Oh, man.
And our couch is pretty clean. I gotta be honest. Rebecca's.
She's kind of crazy about that stuff, so there's nothing even to worry about. I just can't. I just can't. It's probably something from college, actually.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Stuff gets in there so quick with kids.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: You guys, this relates to church. We did the church when I was in high school. Bought the old strip club downtown of the town that I was in.
And who cleaned it out? It was a few of the leadership team for the high schoolers.
So we took off. Moldy drywall machines in the bathrooms. We took out ourselves. Dude, couches. There's four couches in that place that we were picking up and moving around.
And at the time, I was like, yes, it's kind of gross. And now as an adult, I'm like, the. The idea that I would send Joel. Yeah. To go and do any of that work is completely insane.
[00:13:12] Speaker B: No way. Yeah. By the time. By the time an establishment like that has gotten so run down that now it's abandoned. It just. The. Yeah. It just compounds. How disgusting that.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: Yes. It was, like, three years not in use when we bought it and then started.
Oh, my gosh.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:33] Speaker B: So that's your segue into church ministry talk.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: You segue from strip club remodel to John 13 point.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: The.
The segue is there actually, because we're talking about doing those tasks that are so low that leaders would never do it well. And you just described a really good example.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Does that make how you served righteous?
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Makes you like Jesus.
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: No, I thought it was great example. You talked about being in an elevator, even with people I liked. As you were explaining the metaphor, it was like open spaces and then rooms and then elevators with people that make you uncomfortable or even things and ideas. And that is what I took away from that is the claustrophobic feeling of what you're talking about, of serving or caring for people that maybe you wouldn't naturally care about. And I think that that's it. That was a good descriptor for me that I hadn't considered, was like, it does feel like when you're trying to be like Jesus in these spaces, it's like the walls are closing in. It's not this great. The light came on and Then all of a sudden I had this really righteous, graceful feeling inside. It's like, no, I'm really claustrophobic first.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: And a little scared and frustrated. There's a lot of other emotions that come along with it. And that was kind of what I extrapolated from it anyway. Even if that wasn't your intention.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that. That picture of claustrophobic space versus what we would all choose for ourselves, probably, which is like, what am I most comfortable? What's a nice wide open, well lit, natural light on a nice day? And I'm in a space that I'm in control of and I, I get to dictate who's around me and it's the people I love the most, you know, and this idea of Jesus knows the end is really close and if I know I'm about to die, I'm like, I'm going to choose the most comfortable space for myself with the people I love the most.
And in a way, of course, Jesus is, He loves his disciples the most.
But it's not a room filled with the most loyal people. Right. And I talked about that a lot yesterday. You have the denier and you have the betrayer and you have the deserters. And that's the room that Jesus is in and he serves really, really beautifully and perfectly in that room. Not a room that has guys that are more with it, you know, And
[00:15:58] Speaker A: I find it easiest to create an excuse to not serve in these ways or think through life in these ways when I feel like I've earned, I've earned it. And so you talk about the death that Jesus knows that he's about to endure. And the human nature for me would be like, you're saying I want to find the most comfortable place.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: But.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: But it's not even just that I'm gonna find the most comfortable place because I can actually justify it because I'm doing a lot of work over here, trying really hard over here. I'm about to do this miraculous thing over here and this yucky stuff in between and the awkward whatever. Like I've actually earned the right to just lecture you about the betrayal that you're gonna have with me, or I do that in my own life. If I'm working hard over here, I just wanna be like, no, I've earned the right to kind of be a jerk over here now. Because I find righteousness and man, that's.
I think I see that. That's how you get that Christian, I referred to it a couple weeks ago. That's kind of plasticky, knows the right words to say, knows when to say them, knows all the worship songs, and can, in certain environments, function in a way that would appear to be righteous. And then in other times, when Jesus is really calling them into something else, it's a total rejection of that, or at least a partial rejection. And that human nature stuff. Right. Like, I think everyone can empathize with that feeling.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's that stuff that Jesus calls us into that is truly lower than we think we should be doing. Because sometimes you jump into things, but it's actually just to stay in control or because you prefer to do some side project as opposed to what only you can do. And I think what the washing of the feet shows us is Jesus calling us into those things that. That a we don't have to do. If you don't do it, nobody's looking at you and be like, why isn't that done? And it doesn't lead to more of your control or, you know, something that, like, oh, I really enjoy doing that. It's those things that are completely for the sake of others. I think that's what Jesus is trying to model as a precursor to the cross. It's like, there's no. He doesn't go to the cross because he wants to stay in control of the situation. You know, it's complete emptying of oneself and everything that benefits you, you lay that down. And I think that's what he's getting at.
And I can look at a lot of things like, well, I pitch in in these certain ways that I wouldn't have to. Other people could do that, but often that's because I want to. What are those things I don't want to do, but for the sake of you or for the sake of somebody I love, I would. You know, I think that's what Jesus is getting at in this.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yeah. It sounds like the Friends episode, right. Of the. Is there any truly selfless act? You guys remember that from the Friends run?
[00:18:39] Speaker B: Sorry, not a Friends guy. Are you a Friends fan?
[00:18:42] Speaker C: I'm a big Friends fan, actually, but refresh my memory.
[00:18:45] Speaker A: Camera. Which character brings it up? But one of them is doing things that are nice, and they're like, yeah, and I'm just doing it for other people. And then one of the other ones is like, you know that there's no actual selfless act. Right. Like, you're going out and you're caring for these people, but it's really just to make yourself feel better. And then it just kind of runs from there. And everybody becomes a little.
A little afraid of their own shadow, of like, no, I'm actually doing this thing because it's actually nice and I'm not trying to get anything out of it.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: And.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Well, see, you're trying to prove your point. I know I don't want to prove
[00:19:14] Speaker B: my point,
[00:19:17] Speaker A: but I don't mind.
I actually kind of like that tension that's in there. I feel like I say that a lot these days. Maybe it's a product of getting older. There are so many places in life where I actually feel like the good stuff is found in those tension pieces of I'm really, really genuinely trying to serve. And I also am. I'm. I know that I'm getting something beautiful out of this as well. Like, I'm being formed. I'm being, you know, all of this kind of stuff. I like the feeling of the tension that we have in those claustrophobic places because I think that's where God's training us and teaching us and where we actually are doing the good work. I get a little suspicious these days when something just feels a little too easy. And maybe that's not healthy either, but it's good. Like, I just imagine the tension of that Jesus being fully human, fully God, in those moments, fully serving, Washing the feet of Judas is such a crazy picture to me. And what, what tension Jesus may have felt in that moment.
[00:20:18] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I don't. I don't think it's a problem to have that tension of like, is this really, truly 100% selfless? Because all through the Bible there's this incentive to follow after, you know, it's all the way from, you know, delight yourself in the Lord. He'll give you the desires of your heart all the way through Philippians 2, where it's like Jesus lowered himself, became obedient to death, even death on a cross. Therefore God exalted him. You know, so it's like we also do things to honor God with this expectation that God will care for us and take care of us. And so I don't know that anything is without some sort of incentive. And Jesus is on mission. Right. He's clearly doing something to get to this outcome of salvation and redemption through the cross. It's not pleasant, but it's also something he's intending to do. So. Yeah, I don't know that that tension's unholy. Yeah, Right.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think so either. The incentive piece of us is probably. There's probably a reason we're wired that way. Right.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Because we wouldn't do anything ever. It was incentivized at some level.
I don't know what Chandler thinks.
No, that's good. And I think you're right, man.
The Christianity without tension feels cheap.
Right. If anything is just a no brainer.
I don't know, have we wrestled with it enough if we don't feel different forces pulling on us when we're following Jesus? Because it should be a challenge, it should be narrow is the way, and few that find it.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: I can't think of anything that doesn't have that tension right now.
And for me. And yeah, open handed enough to hopefully believe that maybe that changes someday. I don't know, maybe not even hopefully, but maybe that'll change. And I want to be open to that idea. But everything that we do, like our services, we talk a lot about that tension of openness and honesty while also being excellent. Like we want things to be done really, really well. And we also want them to be incredibly accessible and not feel like there is some kind of a holiness that's on us or on staff or on stage that doesn't belong in everyone else's lives, but also doing things really well.
As a preacher all the time, I'm thinking about the tension of that humor and accessibility with the real depth. There's a ton of tension inside of that because what is something deep if not accessible? And what is something accessible if not really transformational and formational?
I'm jealous often of churches that find no tension in how they address political situations within their congregation because it just looks so easy and nice and comfortable. And I find tension in every single news story that comes down the pike.
Not between right and left, but the tension between right, left and Jesus. And that's exhausting to live in those places. And I just can't, ministry wise, I just can't think of hardly any places that don't have tension.
Yeah.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: And if you want to just ignore tension and just blast through, it kind of works. Right. As a leader.
Because what you'll do is you just run off anybody that isn't completely with you and then you'll gather people that are. And that feels great.
And sometimes, sometimes I wonder, do we torture ourselves by staying in tension? Too much
[00:23:42] Speaker A: tension in the tension.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Is tension always like the way of Jesus? Or sometimes are we, you know, too much in our heads? Yeah. I don't know. What do you think, Lindsay?
[00:23:50] Speaker C: That's a good question.
I think about, come to me all you who are weary and I will give you rest.
And where does that play a part in living within these tensions that we find ourselves? I also think we should acknowledge that ministry and those who are in full time ministry face probably maybe not more tension, but a different kind of tension than the average person.
Just a differentiation, not better or worse, but just because I think we fight against people pleasing to a degree that is obscene, like you, because people share their opinions, they share their offenses, they share, you know, very vocal. We, we are with a very large group of people and we're dealing with very personal things.
And so I think part of it in an ideal world would be like, we are responsible to Jesus and we're caring for the people in our church and we can sleep easy because that's just true of us. But I think there's so many other nuances to navigating ministry for a large group of people.
But I don't think that that is necessarily.
Yeah, that's just the way it is. Bummer. You know, I think, yeah, I will give you rest is like a legitimate thing that Jesus says to us.
And I think that applies to all areas of tension.
So yeah, I don't know how to get there or live in that perfectly, but.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: And we know that as leaders you have to have conviction and vision in order to lead. Well. Right. And we've been taught that forever, ever since leadership was kind of on our minds. And we talked about this in our essentials class last night and we went through the Apostles Creed and the basic beliefs of Christianity and we are going to stand firm on these orthodox beliefs of Christianity. And I go through that process and go, yeah, this is great. You feel foundational. It feels like it keeps the main thing, the main thing, and then we can discuss the rest. And then the tension is also that depending on the day, I'm like, man came back from the dead.
That's crazy. I don't know.
Today is that, do I believe that right in this moment? Like there's tension in that for me, you know, and so we even go back to these foundational principles that sometimes are, are just hard.
And I like that part of the journey now for me, I don't, I don't hear my mind go that, go that direction and shame myself for having some kind of doubt or unbelief. I actually find it to be a really helpful part of my walk.
And so even, but even in there, yeah, this is the foundational. These are concrete and depending on the day, it's just hard sometimes to believe and have faith. Right. I love the prayer.
I believe help my Unbelief, you know,
[00:26:44] Speaker B: kind of a thing.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: I feel that all the time.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: And I think that is the honest prayer of people that are genuinely seeking Christ is we're not going to be without doubts, and nor would I choose a faith that is without doubts. You know, we talked a lot about this. That certainty is not what we sign up for. When you follow Jesus, it's a journey of faith.
And faith is not sight, Right? Like, it's to walk trusting even when you doubt. And so when you say, like, I'm really struggling to believe in the resurrection of Jesus, that doesn't mean I'm going to be like, okay, so now I'm going to write a new doctrine that says Jesus didn't actually bodily resurrect from the dead. Well, no, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about when we look at what we believe and we say, man, I'm really struggling with doubt around this or that.
And in those moments, what do you do? Do you run away or do you pray? That really honest prayer, like the Father in that story who says, help my unbelief, Jesus?
[00:27:42] Speaker A: I think part of what makes it hard is sometimes a response. I think you get people, they're in a certain place in their life where they're like, I find a lot of comfort in your struggle with faith or belief in some of these areas. And then the other side is like, I need you to shut up with all this doubt stuff and, like, have some conviction, please, and start walking in a direction, because I'm trying to follow after you. And it feels like I'm falling off a leader that's a little confused, and that's hard for me. And I actually, you know, I get frustrated with that kind of person, but I also can understand where they're coming from.
This is a hard tension. Again, there's this, like, balancing act of we are walking forward, and part of forward is sideways and a little bit backwards and confused, but forward nonetheless and following after the way of Jesus. They're not separated, but I can understand how so many people feel like it. And I don't want to live in that tension that you're providing me as a leader.
[00:28:37] Speaker B: And I think that's probably the.
The goal for all leaders is to know how to walk that out, to be vulnerable and human and at the same time lead in such a way that you give safety and you shepherd well as you lead people. Because a shepherd who's like, I don't even know where the wolves are, guys, you know, like, that's not. That's not comforting to the flock.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: Why are you quoting me like that? I don't appreciate it.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: So you have to do both.
I'm going to be very vulnerable and real. And also you can trust that where we're going to go is something that I'm not just stumbling into because we believe Jesus is leading this thing. And that's what I want to be. I want to get there to where I can be truly vulnerable, truly real, and also a good leader. And I don't think those are mutually exclusive. I think you can be with. And I think some of the leaders that we love and respect the most are those that are vulnerable and also have deep convictions. And not without doubt, but they also know, like, hey, this is where we're gonna go. I'm confident in this.
We will see the goodness of God in the land of the living, or whatever the moment calls for. But it's both.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not wishy washy, it's thoughtful, it's not fearful. And actually its own way, it's the most courageous thing that you can do.
It's just funny sometimes in my own just walk as a Christian myself, and then of course, as a leader, it's a lot easier for me to view someone that's doing this really well and go, oh, beautiful.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I would follow you to the ends of the earth. And then to find myself in my own shoes and in my own brain trying to sort that out, it feels just so. It's a totally different task entirely. And it's hard to find the balance. And probably because there's not a perfect balance, this is part of the journey, I suppose.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And as leaders, we know what's in us.
And so sometimes if we're looking at some author across the country that we look to, like, man, he or she always has really good insights and we're going to follow them.
But then we look at ourselves, we're like, I might have some good insights, but I also know how dowdy I am.
We don't know how dowdy Rich Velodas is, You know, and that's fine because you can be vulnerable without being like, here's all the laundry of what I'm doubting. And I don't know. I think there's a way to do it to where you don't have to be fake or pretentious or put on a show, but also you're not just like, I don't know, guys, what are we gonna do today? What do you want to Hear about. I don't know.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Again, you don't have to bring up our meeting that we were in just before we came in.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Who does that sound more like, Lindsay, me or Ben?
[00:31:26] Speaker C: It sounds like that rooster cartoon character who is.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: What's his name?
[00:31:34] Speaker A: It's.
It rhymes.
Foghorn Leghorn.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Yeah. That's really fun.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: What an epic name for a character.
It really is great.
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Bring that back.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: Where do we lead the church today?
[00:31:49] Speaker C: Little Bill Clinton in there, too?
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Ben.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: Matthew McConaughey. I think I was.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: What I would love for you to do.
[00:31:55] Speaker A: Ben, I say green light.
[00:31:58] Speaker B: I would love for you to do audio only. A conversation between Foghorn Leghorn, Bill Clinton and the whistling Groundhog. Groundhog. From Winnie the Pooh.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. What's a good line from the groundhog?
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Is it a groundhog or is it a woodchuck? No, he lives in the ground.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: A rock. Chuck.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: Gopher.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Gopher.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: Thanks, Justin.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: There's also.
Justin, get in here. On the Blustery Day. He talks a lot in Blustery Day.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: He does, yeah. Was it. Is it the same guy that does the voice? There's a whistling voice character in the Robin Hood one. The animated Robin Hood.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Who's the one in that? Is it a rabbit?
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Should have come more prepared for this. Yeah.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Anybody with big teeth. Oh, the king.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: At the king. Is it the snake?
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Could be.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Could be. Might be the snake.
[00:32:45] Speaker A: I was confused the snake in that one with the snake in Jungle Book for some reason.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Must have been a lot of the same. A lot of the same voice actors.
And actually the Baloo.
Baloo voice actor. He's also famously another one of the main old Disney characters. Forget.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Yeah, he did a bunch of them. Yeah, you're right.
[00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
Anyway.
[00:33:04] Speaker A: Tension. Yeah, we were talking about tension.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: Foghorn Leghorn. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, no, it's good. And I. I want. I think there's also spaces, you know, I think in these conversations, we open up in vulnerable ways that maybe wouldn't always be called for, like on a stage on Sunday morning. And I think that's why. That's why we try to have ministry that doesn't just happen in one spot. It doesn't just happen from a stage to a big crowd. Right. I think Jesus modeled this really well where he's saying certain things to the crowd and then he goes away with his disciples. He says, okay, let me explain that a little bit more to you. Or let me. You know, he's way more vulnerable in this moment. In the Last supper, in John 13 than he ever is with the multitudes out in Galilee. And so I don't feel like we're called to just say the same things to every group that we're ever in. I think there's an openness that is called for in smaller circles, and I think that's right and good.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: It speaks to the power of context and a moment. And I'm learning that lesson that not every moment is made to be the same. You know, there's maybe it's my 8enneagram personality or something, but there's this idea that authenticity is being the exact same all the way across the board in every single context. And if you're doing that, then you're actually being honest and true to yourself, which is just pretty reckless in practice and actually not helpful. And it really doesn't speak to true honesty. But I have felt that in, like, if you're going to have a conversation with me in my office one on one, I want to be and say the exact same things that I would say in front of 2,000 people on a holiday weekend. And that's not true or right. And that doesn't mean I'm stepping into, in and out of different personalities. You're definitely getting the real Ben on either one of those things. But the context matters, and Jesus does show and prove that out. For someone who only gave himself a handful of years to do everything that he wanted to accomplish, he found all of these different places to speak differently and to use metaphor a little bit differently and to use ancient teaching a little bit differently.
And hopefully that's encouraging to people that are listening that that pressure is kind of off.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And what you, you know, you might vent to your. Your spouse about a hard day or something that's going on in a relationship. And you would never say, like, well, to be authentic, I'm also going to vent to the church on Sunday about this person. Like, I think I know that.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Later, though.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, yeah, no, that's. That's real.
And of course, even just like professionalism, there are certain things that know the time and place. But when we talk about leadership and living intention and living as humans that are also in our own spiritual walk with Christ and having our doubts and managing all that. Managing is the wrong word. That makes it sound like we really are pretending.
But walking with those realities and still showing up and doing the job is important.
Otherwise, I think you lead people down paths that are unhealthy. Maybe.
[00:36:08] Speaker A: And maybe for us, it's the edification piece. Right. And I feel like that word was a little overused when I was in youth leadership cleaning out old strip clubs.
But what edifies the group is a great way of framing it for me. What is actually helpful for the specific context that we're in and helps move the ball forward as opposed to, well, what's something super creative that I thought of that would be interesting or eye catching, which doesn't necessarily always dovetail along with what is the most edifying thing that is showing Jesus specifically for this moment in this day. And maybe that relieves a lot of the tension, and maybe that's what Jesus did. You know, Jesus didn't do some massive miracle in every moment. Right. It wasn't a magic show. And sometimes in those intimate moments, it was just conversation and teaching and I'm sure in many cases, because it probably didn't translate well to text, it was just friendship. Right. And it was just presence with those who were with them. I don't want to discount all those things either.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's a moment when kind of that urge to go viral is there, just culturally, you know? And so I think it's a warning for us pastors and preachers of, you can do a lot of things to, like, catch eyes or get that attention, but does it edify? You know, and. And also don't. We don't want it to be boring, like, oh, I got through my material, so we're okay.
No, you want to make it interesting and compelling and all that. But. But this. This impulse to be like, well, if I do that, everyone's gonna be talking about that, you know, so it's like,
[00:37:47] Speaker A: do you have that impulse every time you go to teach Evan?
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, me always doing the flashy things.
But there's a lot of things you can do that get attention that aren't, you know, no one gets built up from it. Yeah.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: Lindsay, if you were gonna go viral for something, what would it be?
[00:38:03] Speaker C: Oh, Lord, I don't know. Probably something very embarrassing. Embarrassing that someone just happened to catch on video.
[00:38:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Once your kids start filming, when they
[00:38:11] Speaker C: jump straight, they do already.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: They do.
[00:38:14] Speaker C: Eric will set his phone on the table. They hear the garage door open, so I come in and they're hiding.
But I already. It's suspicious from the get go. I already know, but there have been a few where I jump a mile and they laugh so hard and they want to watch it back a million times, and it's so fun for them.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: None of these videos have hit the staff yet.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: Of course not.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: It's disappointing.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: So, Ben, you were in bilingual preaching at Iglesia yesterday when I told the story in the last two services.
Did you hear about this?
[00:38:45] Speaker A: I only heard about it after the teachings.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:50] Speaker A: I came out in the atrium after the last service, and somebody was like, just for the record, I think that kid liked you too. And I was like, excuse me, what are you talking about? You could tell the story.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So one of our ladies that runs the cookie bar, she said that her granddaughter was in the car with her parents and fussy, and so they handed her an iPad with, you know, a kid's show on or something, and somehow she flipped off of that app to our live stream, and I was preaching. And for some reason, it just calmed her right down. She watched like 15 minutes of me preaching. And so the next time they got in the car, you know, long trip, like, oh, let's try that. So they. They handed west side back to the daughter, and she's just fussy, and they look and it's you preaching. And so the dad said. And this was the line, but he said, no, we don't want the bearded one. We want the bald one.
[00:39:42] Speaker A: I did not hear that line.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what the dad said. So I thought it was a great story because, you know, it makes me sound like the better preacher.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Well, I think it's 100% true, at least for toddlers.
[00:39:54] Speaker B: Ones that can't understand English yet really love what I have to say.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Makes perfect sense.
[00:39:59] Speaker B: English speakers prefer you, Ben, so you can rest in that.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: I did not hear that part of the story.
[00:40:04] Speaker B: That's one bald one.
[00:40:06] Speaker A: Yeah. They could listen to this podcast and then watch the kid just ride the wave, you know, as you and I back and forth. Go back and forth.
That's really funny.
[00:40:15] Speaker B: So funny.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Anyway, nobody was giving me the full story. It was all like, that's confusing when
[00:40:19] Speaker B: you're trying to pick up the.
[00:40:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it was like one phrase. Quick passing conversations. Like, I happen to like you. So, you know, he's like, what are you talking?
[00:40:30] Speaker B: What happened in that service?
Oh, so funny.
[00:40:32] Speaker A: I went to the 8:15. You didn't reference that.
[00:40:34] Speaker B: No, 8:15 was. It was daylight saving day, so everyone lost an hour of sleep.
Yeah, it was one of those. You're just. You're not sure where you're at until the second service starts.
[00:40:46] Speaker A: I felt that ministry IQ test.
Lindsay took the day off. So does that mean I'm the smartest
[00:40:52] Speaker C: one in the room?
[00:40:53] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Did you. Did you sleep into a normal hour I slept in.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: I did. It was really nice.
[00:41:00] Speaker A: I don't think I've ever missed that Sunday, which is. Why haven't I taken that day off?
[00:41:07] Speaker C: You should look now, next year and just request it off.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: No, it's an easy one.
[00:41:13] Speaker B: You know, everyone's making it a blackout day.
I'm telling Kim. No one, no one in our system can request this day off.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Evan has to suffer. Everyone has to suffer.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: I don't like doing power trips, but I might. Around daylight savings day. We all have to be here, miserable and exhausted.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: I think the only power trip you and I have ever insisted on is that we don't share hotel room.
[00:41:35] Speaker B: That's true. That's true.
[00:41:37] Speaker C: That's not a power trip. That's just. I'm an adult now, and I want my own hotel room.
[00:41:42] Speaker A: I mean, but when I had different jobs at this church, that happened. And then that was the only time I brought it up specifically. I went to Steph and I said, look, I know that I'm going on this trip, and I will not.
I won't do it.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: It's a real power church.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: I will cancel this.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: No, it's true. I remember I used to play keyboards, you know, with a group of guys in a band. And so we. We did the thing where you're. You're five guys in a single hotel room.
[00:42:09] Speaker A: Preserve that profit margin.
[00:42:10] Speaker B: That's two in each bed and one on the floor. Yeah. Because you're broke. You're just so broke. And sometimes those are tiny. Those are like double beds. And you're just. You're. You're shoulder to shoulder.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: Where were you?
[00:42:21] Speaker C: Were you in Little Spoon, Big Spoon?
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Little Spoon, Big Spoon. What's that?
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Were you in one of the beds always?
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:27] Speaker A: Oh, I'm.
[00:42:27] Speaker C: You never slept on the floor.
[00:42:29] Speaker B: I feel like one of the other members of the group always wanted the floor.
[00:42:33] Speaker C: Insisted. Yeah.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Which I suppose you could. Everybody could sleep on the floor. There's probably room, but, you know, then you're fighting over blankets because there's never enough blankets for five guys.
[00:42:40] Speaker A: Never.
[00:42:41] Speaker B: It's horrible, you guys. So after years of that, you got a sheet. It's like, all right, I think we're gonna not share rooms. No.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: I volunteer for the floor in those situations.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: There's one guy out, that's me. I will sleep on the guys. I need a little bit of space.
[00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: First and foremost in order to sleep well. And the. The hard surface, certainly that time didn't matter as much.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: Did you ever do host homes for ministry things?
[00:43:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we did. We did a host home with. And I was. Got stuck in this room with Casey Parnell. And the bed was one of those just cardboardy, you know, Whereas, like, it's just so flat and not good. And so I can't sleep at all. And so finally I'm like, I'm just gonna lay on the ground because I can't sleep. And then I got so cold. But there was no blanket, because there was one blanket. He's got it. And so, you know the bed skirt that hangs down to cover the gap under the bed. I pulled on that and like, curled up next to the bed skirt, like the little ruffled, thin bed skirt. I'm like, oh, I'm so cold. And I remember just specifically there was an alarm clock. And just watching it, it was like 3:40, 3:42. I'm like, how early? Before it's reasonable to be awake. I think I can make it to 4:30 and then be like, I'm up.
[00:43:57] Speaker A: What are the other options?
Like a bed skirt. That's great.
[00:44:02] Speaker C: Bathroom towel?
[00:44:03] Speaker A: Yeah, Towels.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: I would have loved a towel.
[00:44:05] Speaker A: Could you have drawn a warm bath and just laid in it?
[00:44:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: And then re upped the warmth every 30 minutes or so.
[00:44:12] Speaker C: Strange to take a bath in someone's host home.
[00:44:15] Speaker A: I mean, when you're desperate, you're desperate, I guess. Did you have, like, your keyboard somewhere? You've taken the case off and pulled it out? The case? Yeah. Like a sleeping bag?
[00:44:24] Speaker B: It was a hard case, but yeah. Oh, sure. Like a little coffin. Better. Nothing.
Keep the breeze off.
[00:44:32] Speaker A: Oh, they all wake up and there's
[00:44:34] Speaker B: this hard case keyboard that's like an. A frame over your body.
My. My brother Brent told me that they were traveling on a mission trip, and he's the type that'll. He'll absolutely share a bed or a room to save money.
And they were in a layover somewhere, and it was him, another guy, and a couple. So four of them. And they just needed a place to crash for like three hours before their flight. So you get this room, and the idea was everyone could take a shower and just kind of chill. But it was one of those where it's glass between the shower and the rest of the bedroom.
[00:45:08] Speaker A: It's like, in the room.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: Yeah, but it had a button that would fog the glass, like privacy glass.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: I don't trust it.
[00:45:16] Speaker B: He's just describing the terror as he's showering and this couple and the other guy are sitting on the bed inches away from him and just hoping that the button doesn't malfunction.
[00:45:24] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: So good. Oh, the comedy there is.
Oh, that should be. Yeah.
[00:45:30] Speaker A: One of the greatest cultural disconnects is the bathroom in and of itself.
[00:45:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: Even just in that trip that I took to Turkey a couple years ago, we ended up in another spot and we stayed at this Airbnb. And the bathroom itself, like, there was no walls around the shower, and the whole bathroom just drained to the middle of the room, and so it didn't drain particularly well. So you're taking a shower over here, and then you're getting out, and it's just a puddle everywhere. Like, there's no way to stop it. And so you're standing at the sink and you're kind of like, you got to put a towel down outside the room and then stand on it afterward. I just don't understand why that hadn't been fixed yet. Or.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Is that European influence? I know there's been places where it's like, the shower is the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:16] Speaker A: Or there's just no strange. There's no door. It's. There's like a half wall.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Been in some of those showers. Just water everywhere.
[00:46:22] Speaker A: We're okay with this.
[00:46:23] Speaker C: It's also cold. I think it's freezing.
[00:46:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not okay. I'm not okay with this trend, though, of the bathrooms being open to the rest of the hotel room.
Like, I've seen this in an upward trend. Yeah. I've seen this quite a few times in remodeled rooms where it's either like a half door or kind of a sliding partition, but not a full door between the actual bathroom and toilet and the rest of the hotel room. It's like, that's so impractical, you know?
[00:46:51] Speaker A: Saves money, though.
[00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know.
[00:46:52] Speaker A: You don't have to build another room.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
Everybody needs a little bit of privacy in this life.
[00:46:57] Speaker A: I definitely need privacy. Oh, my gosh. Privacy, please.
Yeah. Great job this weekend.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Well, yeah, Other than the sleepy 8:15, I think John's been really good to us as far as rich, content. And as we walk towards Easter in a couple weeks, just feels like we're getting the stuff of the gospel at a really high level. Not because of our preaching, just because the.
What John writes is so rich.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: Yeah. The run up to Easter. I'm so glad that we've got Breakfast on the beach included in this gospel. Didn't we do Luke and we were
[00:47:31] Speaker B: like, we're just gonna bring this story
[00:47:33] Speaker A: over just for Easter.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Emmaus Road is cool and all, but let's get back to the breakfast on the beach. Yeah. Some great stories.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: It's all built in. Oh, good.
[00:47:41] Speaker B: John.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: You just do John again next year. Are we gonna do Matthew? We do gospel?
[00:47:44] Speaker B: I don't know. We haven't talked. Are we getting loop back?
[00:47:47] Speaker A: Probably.
[00:47:49] Speaker B: We like the Gospels.
[00:47:50] Speaker A: Let's do it.
[00:47:51] Speaker B: All right.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: All right.
