Jonah and the Whale

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:18] Speaker B: And I'm Evan Earwicker. Sometimes we should just switch that up and I should talk first and then you should come in and it would change the whole dynamic of this podcast. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Have we ever, ever done it? No, not a single time. [00:00:29] Speaker B: How many years have we been doing this? [00:00:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Eight. [00:00:32] Speaker B: Eight years. [00:00:33] Speaker A: I've been here for nine. And we started pretty shortly after that. [00:00:37] Speaker B: I mean, my marriage, my job, and this podcast are the longest lasting things in my life. Okay. [00:00:44] Speaker A: And this podcast. [00:00:47] Speaker B: No, I have friends. I have friends going back eight years. [00:00:50] Speaker A: You have friends. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Good. Let's talk about that. Yeah. Lindsey, how long have you been friends? [00:00:55] Speaker C: Hmm? Friends or how long have I known ya? Cause those are two different things. [00:00:59] Speaker A: Oh, boy. Where's the line of demarcation? [00:01:02] Speaker C: Oh, I think when you and Alyssa moved back here in 2008, 2007. [00:01:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it was like Mother's Day, 2007. We moved back, which makes sense. I mean, before that you were new to town. I was a punk, so. Yeah. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Were you clocking that at the time, Lindsay, that Evan was a punk? You called Evan a punk? [00:01:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Really? [00:01:26] Speaker C: I've told him many times that you were quite the punk. [00:01:28] Speaker B: Really? So the very first time we met was not fair to anybody because of how ridiculous it was. We had a mutual friend, your friend, that brought you to Bend. We went to high school. Me and my friend Raleigh went to high school with her. So we were at her house. Lindsey was visiting from New Mexico, considering to move or whatever. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Okay. [00:01:48] Speaker C: And. [00:01:48] Speaker B: And me and my buddy Raleigh were absolutely ridiculous and just idiots. We were idiots. And so that was the first impression, probably, and it was a bad one. [00:01:57] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:01:58] Speaker A: What drove the idiocy, trying to impress to be funny to all of the. [00:02:05] Speaker B: Above, Specifically, I think Raleigh had like this long term kind of crush on her. [00:02:12] Speaker C: My friend. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, on your friend. And so then he was doing things like, you know, it's like that younger brother trying to get attention, vibes. So, like he. There was. There was Christmas decorations that he would move around the house that night and it would show stupid stuff like that. No one would be like, well, that's cool. That's how you get some of his attention. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Right? [00:02:30] Speaker B: It was stupid. I apologize, Lindsay, for that evening. [00:02:32] Speaker C: I forgive you, Evan. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. [00:02:33] Speaker A: And there's the dynamic of a new person coming into that dynamic too, where the dorky dude, especially. I've been the dorky dude. In this situation, you almost feel obligated to, like, really gregariously show them around the relationship, you know, like. Yeah, it's so stupid. [00:02:54] Speaker B: It was. It was rough, but it's funny now. Funny now. Yeah. And then my first role back at Westside in 2007, when we moved back, I was one of Lindsay's volunteers on her worship team. [00:03:07] Speaker C: All my youth worship teams. Yeah. [00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And you almost said no to Evan. [00:03:12] Speaker B: No. [00:03:12] Speaker C: I was like, thank you, God. I need another volunteer to help me lead. [00:03:16] Speaker A: That's how desperate we get. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we were at a friend's camp in Rockaway at the beach, and we'd rent that out for a high school or middle school camp. That was one of the first things I did, was. Yeah. Helped lead worship. [00:03:35] Speaker C: It was great. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:03:36] Speaker C: He eventually took my job. When Eric and I moved back to Albuquerque, Evan was the youth worshiper. [00:03:41] Speaker A: Why did you move back? I don't know that I've ever heard the reasoning behind all that. [00:03:46] Speaker C: I was very homesick. I was a newlywed. It was a whole different ball game, life season wise. And I was like, I need my mommy. So we moved back to Albuquerque for a little bit. We planned on one year. We ended up staying for three. But then after a certain amount of time, I was like, geez, I miss Bend. I miss Westside. I miss my friends. So we moved back. [00:04:11] Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, that's. How was Eric with the I want to move because I'm homesick. [00:04:16] Speaker C: He was great. He was wonderful. He was very much on the fence about moving to Albuquerque, but he found a film school that actually catered to exactly what he wanted to do. And so it was. It worked out well for both of us. [00:04:28] Speaker A: Nice. [00:04:29] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:29] Speaker A: I made the mistake of trying to shun everything that my wife had come from after we got married. [00:04:37] Speaker B: How did that go? [00:04:38] Speaker A: Yeah, not great. Not great. Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker B: What a weird. [00:04:41] Speaker A: I mean, some of that, I think, is a product of getting married at 22. Then who knows what else made up the dynamic. But there was, like, this. I hate Medford. We're never moving to Medford. If you even bring up Medford, I'm going to be angry about it. How often are you talking to your parents on the phone while I'm gone? We had a lot of those conversations. So many things that I really regret and don't fully understand where they come from in looking back at it. So all I have to say, Eric's a better man than me, which is not new for this podcast. [00:05:12] Speaker B: Usually I come across the monster on this podcast. So I appreciate that you're opening up. That's. [00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker B: That's pretty controlling. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah. It was not great. [00:05:20] Speaker B: It was not great. [00:05:23] Speaker A: Everything else, I felt like it was pretty hands off about. There was something about, like, this connection to everything back home. I wanted us to go off and make our own fortune kind of a. [00:05:33] Speaker B: Thing, which I think that's a natural, healthy impulse. Right. Is that you want to, like, start your own family. You don't want to be an extension of somebody else's family. [00:05:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:42] Speaker B: And that's a leaving and cleaving. Right. Genesis 2. Yeah. [00:05:47] Speaker A: I think there's pieces of it that weren't necessarily destructive in and of themselves. There's a lot of yuckiness in the middle of that too. [00:05:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Like, it's pretty. Pretty gross. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. My in laws, they were into, I think, conceptually, I don't think it ever actually worked out, but they were into the idea of, like, the courtship in Christian, conservative Christian circles. [00:06:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:09] Speaker B: Courtship rather than dating. Right. So everything was very regimented throughout the relationship until you were engaged and then married. [00:06:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:18] Speaker B: And so what that meant for us was a series of VHS tapes from a courtship seminar that had been filmed. Not professionally filmed, mind you, just a camera in the back of the room in a gymnasium. Hours of these videos that they wanted us to watch with a chaperone nearby. It didn't go over well with me. [00:06:41] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Eventually we just stopped watching them. And then no one had the energy to be like, no, you have to stick with this. So it ended up being a pretty normal dating relationship, but at the start, it was like, you're gonna do this courtship. You're gonna watch these videos. It was wild, man. [00:06:56] Speaker A: Evan, I feel like you and I experience almost the same growing up in so many ways, but yours is like, the same. And then it's got, like this little multiplier on top. Like, it goes just a little bit farther than anything I had to deal with or encountered. The home videos of a courting Semin, which, by the way, have we ever understood the difference? What's dating and courting? What is the difference other than language? [00:07:21] Speaker B: Well, I mean, I think there is a religious undertone to courtship that really puts the approval process much higher on the list. So exterior approval or external approval of the relationship. So not only do the parents need to approve of the relationship, but then the church has to approve the relationship. And there's some crazy old school verbiage around. Like, there's different courts that have to approve of. Okay, so it's It's a. It's very much a different approach completely to the whole idea of, like, how do you get to the altar? How do you get to a yes? It's not just like, hey, I'm going to ask her dad for her hand in marriage. [00:08:00] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:00] Speaker B: It's like, I'm going to do that and nine other steps to get to the yes. You know, it's wild. But again, we didn't finish the video, so I actually don't know. Yeah, sure. [00:08:09] Speaker A: You think, you know, if you were to finish your stinking seminar and done the homework that came along with it. Oh, yeah, I. That's fast. And that makes sense historically. I'm aware of a lot of those bits and pieces. I think more in the. When people were using that word when I was dating age, it was more about intent. It felt like, like, I. I don't date. I court. You know, like, we're not serious about it. We're serious about this. And that was about as far as it got. [00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:33] Speaker A: As far as I knew. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:35] Speaker A: Was just intent. It wasn't about all the approval process. [00:08:37] Speaker B: This is a whole different. Whole different level. And much to my frustration, Alyssa, as we've talked about, I think, falls asleep very easily. And so we would be sitting on opposite couches in the living room with your chaperone, and I'd be watching these videos, which I did not want to watch. I look over, and Alyssa would be asleep in minutes and just out for all of it. Didn't go for well. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Well, you were the only one needing to watch those videos. [00:09:01] Speaker B: It's true. Those weren't targeted at her because as. [00:09:04] Speaker A: You established, you were not a nice man. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yes, I was, actually. [00:09:08] Speaker A: I don't know if that was at that time. [00:09:10] Speaker B: It was close. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:11] Speaker B: It was close to it. Yeah. Because that night at our friend's house was probably in. When did you first come to Penn during that visit? [00:09:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I was a senior in high school, So I was 17, probably. [00:09:23] Speaker B: What year, though? [00:09:23] Speaker C: Oh, oh, oh. Because this would be. [00:09:26] Speaker B: Okay. This is like late 2004, when Alyssa and I got together, so. Okay. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, I was still that idiot. Idiot kid. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Still that idiot. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Watching those courtship videos. [00:09:40] Speaker A: There was a lot of resentment. [00:09:41] Speaker B: What's fascinating now, I know a lot of the, I think fears of parents, of millennials in Christian world came out of, like, this just fear that kids would be promiscuous or not be serious and end up in bad relationships. And now we're in a. I think a moment where, like, the stats are striking. How few people are dating. [00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:07] Speaker B: And the landscape of dating has changed so much with apps and the world we live in and online that like, we're kind of in a dating crisis where it's like, oh, we need to get our kids interested in actually seeing each other face to face again, otherwise we're going to be in trouble, you know. So fascinating how all these seismic shifts in the landscape over the last 20. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Years, it all seems so fragile. Yeah. Like you said, there's the, the sides of how, how did we get here so fast between. We've got to be really careful and make sure that this doesn't get out of control. And it's just everybody's with everybody and. And now. Yeah, we're literally like coaxing youth out of their bedrooms. You know, let's go find somebody, talk to them in person. Yeah. Are you going to be willing to talk to a member of the opposite sex in person? And how's that going to go? And yeah, it all. It's fascinating how quickly our concerns can change. And ultimately, I don't know that I'm that worried. I don't know, maybe I should be more worried. [00:11:05] Speaker B: I do think that there's some serious issues with how dating works these days. I mean, talk to anybody in our church who's single and trying to find somebody, it's hard. I know it's hard from what I hear. But then I do think the church offers face to face community in a time when that's a mixed bag, you know, So I do think there's, there's something that we have to offer as, as faith community, as, as followers of Jesus together that can offer like real face to face interaction without becoming like, you know, a meat market where it's like, yeah, yeah, come find a. Gotta be careful of that singles mixer. Yeah. [00:11:45] Speaker A: Well, it is funny. I mean the church is one of those few places that people still are congregating, you know, and we were talking about numbers a couple weeks ago, actually on the rise when it comes to young people. So I guess it could be one of those places where people are, are meeting. Yeah. Just. I don't know, I feel, I feel like, I don't want to be ignorant in being too concerned because these things tend to fix themselves somehow over time. I don't know. And maybe this is one thing that won't. It. There is that like ability to interact with a person that you are attracted to is a skill that takes some time and some work. And I do fear for people that just aren't doing this Also, I would have not done apps very well. The apps. Some of my friends will show me conversations that they have or how they build these. You guys. It gives me anxiety, like, just thinking about it. It's like social media with real stakes involved, and I don't want that. [00:12:44] Speaker B: Do you remember there was a. It was when I was in high school, and there was an app, and it wasn't scandalous or risque, but it was called Hot or Not. And you'd post pictures of yourself to this thing, and people would rate you. Whoa. Yeah. Like I said, it wasn't scandalous. It was just like, here's what I look like. What do you think? And you'd get ratings just based on physical appearance, which was like a precursor to the swipe right state of actual dating. But back then. Yeah, that's a bold move to just put yourself out there and then let the reviews roll in. [00:13:18] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll ask people. Well, how did you meet? You guys got married X amount ago. And almost with, like, a little shame, sometimes people be like, oh, we met on an app. And I want to be like, I am really impressed. No shit. This is amazing. Like, no shame at all. You should be proud of yourself for making this system work, because it seems so, so difficult. So shout out to anybody. [00:13:41] Speaker B: I'm not angry. I'm impressed. [00:13:42] Speaker A: On the dating app grind that seems. It just seems so hard. [00:13:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Were apps a thing when any of us were dating our spouses? [00:13:50] Speaker C: Nope. [00:13:50] Speaker B: No. Justin. No. What year did you get married, Justin? 2010. 2010. Okay, so you're a little bit later than all of us, right? Because you were married. [00:13:59] Speaker A: We were 2010. [00:13:59] Speaker B: Oh, you were 2010. Okay. Gotcha. [00:14:02] Speaker A: Wow. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Anyway, this week, let's talk about your message. Ben, you preached on Jonah and the whale, and you prefaced it by saying that you would mix up the words, and you never really did. [00:14:12] Speaker A: I don't. I think I made it through the whole day that I didn't mix Jonah and Noah. [00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:16] Speaker A: And then I. I thought that at the end of my third service, I said, oh, my gosh, I didn't mix them. And then I went, well, I don't know if I did or not. [00:14:23] Speaker B: How would you know? It just rolls off your tongue. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:27] Speaker B: But, yeah, some really good response. Even today. Josh was saying he was with our men's Bible study this morning, and they were all referencing, as Ben said, as Ben said. So real memorable, I think, how you approach the story of Jonah, and maybe in a way that people hadn't heard it told Partially for the comedy that's just baked into the text. Right. [00:14:49] Speaker A: It's funny. It is funny. If you just read it straight and you're not, I don't know, trying to make it something that it's not. You're just taking the text for what it is. It's really funny. Between Jonah, immediately, it says, some of. It's just about the comic timing in it. It's two verses of and then God came to Jonah and said, do this. And then it says, and then Jonah got up and walked in the opposite direction. And then the interaction with the sailors on the ship. And then the chapter four, where Jonah is throwing a pity party at the end and really upset that God was as kind and merciful as he thought he might be. And. And yeah, so you do have these two different ways of taking it. There is the. This is kind of hysterical, how emotional Jonah is, and. And honestly how honest the text is. And then if you allow yourself to, there's the realization of, I've got a lot of these same feelings, too, and I cheer against my enemies, and I believe in this God that is all merciful and all loving and still would love for just desserts for the people that I just can't stand. And none of that fits inside of Christianity. And even brought up some of what we've talked about on the podcast with the love our enemies conversation, how there's no fit. This doesn't work in Christianity. It can work in politics, it can work in sports, it can work in world relations. It can work in lots of these places. And if Christianity is where you're trying to fit it, it just doesn't. And that's so prevalent in Noah. And the crux of the whole thing being, we need a better Jonah who does the work of saving the people without this incredible bitterness on the other end of it, but this unending love and compassion that Jesus shows. But, yeah, big response. I'm not completely sure I understand why. Maybe we can talk about that. I've gotten emails and text messages. So many people grabbed me in the hallway on our staff people, and I thought it was a good message. There was something in there that clicked, particularly. And I'm not too proud to say I don't completely understand why. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I listened to all three and I have no idea what it was. And you were berating me between each service. No, I think maybe you hit on it just a moment ago. In that our Christianity actually says that we can't have some things that are very natural outside of the faith. We can't have hate for our enemies. We can't have murderous rage as revenge against those that have harmed us. Some of these things, I think, in this day and age can't be taken for granted. People are clocking that, oh, to follow Jesus is to turn the other cheek. Because we've just been fed this thought that actually, no, that's not true. And we can use all the power and the influence and the popularity of Jesus right alongside our worst impulses to get what we want. And so when you push back against that, I think something clicks like, oh, actually, following Jesus is countercultural. Following Jesus actually cuts against the way of everybody else in the world that is trying to, you know, get the best for themselves. And when you start to preach that, I do think that is the challenge of Jesus and the challenge of following Jesus. [00:18:01] Speaker A: And it's not a given. You're right. I think we can lose track of this. And then depending on what ideology we're a part of in any sphere of our world, you can actually get a lot by being a part of an ideology and following after the specific group. But most every group will lead you eventually to, we're the in group, they're the out group. Thus they're the enemy, and we hate them and we want what's worse for them. That's. That's a natural human, tribal kind of tendency, which is why several times over, our leadership over the last few years kind of push against this tribalism that gets more insular and more insular and more insular until it's just you. And then you worship at the throne of you. You're the tribe. And that. There's just no room for that. And to say it bluntly and openly for people, I think it's a sobering thing that brings us all back, I want to say, into the middle. It's not really into the middle politically, but it's together. It brings us together to go, oh, yeah, we do agree on this bit. And maybe we can work together if we understand that we can't go that far. That's against our rules and not allowed. Yeah, I think that I'm wondering if there's also. There's something compelling about telling the rest of the story of Jonah. I don't know how many of us were familiar in that room with chapter four, which is Jonah being really frustrated with God about everything that he did and being loving and then a leaf growing and then a worm coming and taking it away, and Jonah being like, I don't want to live anymore. [00:19:21] Speaker B: And that was another great laugh line, at least in the middle service, because it says that the Lord sent a vine or a leaf to grow up and you know, shade Jonah. And then the Lord sent a worm. And then we. [00:19:33] Speaker A: Exclamation point in the text, when you. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Get to the Lord sent a worm, just people laugh. And I told you that this morning. Like, I don't know any other portion of scripture where the comedy translates because, you know, you hear scholars talking about, oh well, this would have been humorous. When Jesus uses this metaphor, turn of phrase, and we're like, okay, well, it's lost on us because we don't see it. But in Jonah you can tell, like whoever is writing this down is. They're funny. Right. And they're making a point through the way they're telling it. And in chapter four, they're telling the story about how Jonah would rather die than see his enemies be pardoned and treated generously and compassionately by God. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:18] Speaker B: That's so absurd for a hero in our Bible to be so opposed to the mercy of God. [00:20:23] Speaker A: But it's right there. And he says it so cleanly and plainly. I know knew that you would be merciful and that your love is unending and deep. And it sucks, man. And I hate it. [00:20:35] Speaker B: Yeah. He said, that's why I went to Tarshish. That's why I ran away from you, because I knew you would change your mind and love these people. [00:20:42] Speaker A: That's right. It's so great. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:44] Speaker A: And that in and of itself is nationalistic. [00:20:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:46] Speaker A: He doesn't want to reach out to these pagan people that he feels like don't deserve the love of God. And then he tells them about the love of God and they actually listen to him and he resents it. Yeah, it's. So I think there's something to even just the more complete story where for me, locked in mind, there's a particular like art or painting. I don't know where it came from, if it was from, you know, some kind of handout in our kids church or something like that or whatever. But it's. It's Jonah praying like on the tongue of the whale. And that's kind of where the story ended for the childhood version of me. It was Jonah made some mistakes, but then God called him to this thing and eventually he repented, surrendered to the will of God. And then there's an epilogue at the end. [00:21:29] Speaker B: Oh, that's true. And then he's really mad about it. [00:21:32] Speaker A: You know, and we didn't talk about that. You know, we go Back to the paintings. You said in your sermon, like, nobody paints, like, the dead bodies at Noah's Ark. Right. Floating in the water. Nobody's painting Jonah flipping off the sky at the end of the story, being like, I hate you and I hate this, and I wish I would never. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah, he's not polite. He's not respectful in his conversation with God. And you can see how this is really written, really a satire. It's prophetic satire in a way, because it's using this extreme example of Jonah's attitude to, I think, reveal to readers how we do feel that way at some level. And it's exaggerated and it's these big, huge statements. And I knew you'd be compassionate and slow to anger and rich in love. Like, clearly the author of Jonah is pointing to how we actually feel deep down and what the true nature of God is, which is all those things that Jonah said. And in Jonah, his case was frustrated by. [00:22:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it is. I like the satire. Is it? [00:22:31] Speaker B: I. [00:22:31] Speaker A: In my mind, for some reason, this scene specifically looks like one of those transitional scenes in Monty Python and the Holy Grail, you know, where they tell you a little bit of the story and they're like. And then they ate the minstrels. There was much rejoicing. [00:22:44] Speaker B: The harpsichord playing in the background. Or the liar. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Yeah. There's like a little leaf that falls off and falls onto somebody. I can picture chapter four exactly like that, where it just almost feels silly, but it really connects with Jesus. And I mentioned this in the sermon, but didn't nearly mention, like, the list of things that you could go down. Jesus, for whatever reason, connects more specifically to Jonah as far as Old Testament narratives than anything else. It's Jesus asleep in the bottom of the boat, just like Noah was. Jonah was asleep in the bottom of the boat. And it's three days in the belly of a whale, three days in a tomb. And then Justin even came up between services. He said, remember when Jesus calls him Simon bar Jonah? And he even references himself. [00:23:31] Speaker B: Peter is the son of Simon. Yeah. Or son of Jonah. [00:23:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And there's so many fascinating connections, but what you referenced might be the biggest one. It's this prophetic storytelling of the Jewish people. After Jesus comes, they get their savior and they resent the fact that this saving could be for everyone and not just for him. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. And, Justin, what you were sharing with us, it's in Joppa, which is the port that Jonah gets on the boat to Tarshish, where, centuries later, the word of the Lord through the Holy Spirit comes to Peter and gives him that vision of the sheep being lowered from filled with all these unclean animals. And the voice says, eat. Which is. It's a gruesome, you know, meat fest, really. But what it speaks to is that the gospel is opening up the kingdom of God to Gentiles. And so isn't that what actually is being told in the story of Jonah, that now, through the better Jonah, Jesus, all the Gentiles are in on this thing? And for everybody, like Peter, who probably at the moment felt like, we can never do that, we can never open this up to everybody, that'd be crazy. That resentment of Jonah wants to come up. And it was the job of the early apostles to just push back against that and say, sorry, no, this is for everybody, everywhere. And the kind of ripple and tension that created in the early church was significant. I mean, how much of the New Testament is Paul just writing about how to deal with the schism between Jews and Gentiles? Right. It's everywhere. [00:25:07] Speaker A: Yeah. It's all dealing with the nationalism, the racism, all those things. Yeah, yeah. There's another thing. They cast lots. They cast lots on the ship, too, just like they cast lots with Jesus. [00:25:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And then that clip from Tim Kelly that we've been referencing in this, he talks about Jonah. He says Jesus is the better Jonah who was thrown into the sea, basically. I can't remember the words, but that we might be saved. You know, he's thrown into death willingly so that those of us. And it's really picturesque. Even the prayer of Jonah in the belly of the whale, you apply that to Jesus in the tomb. Beautiful. And some of these parallels are more than coincidence. Yeah. [00:25:53] Speaker A: You also get Justin was talking about this with us, too. You get this, I hesitate to say, almost version of God that feels a lot more like Jesus than some of the other passages that we get of him. Even at the end, he Sundays, look, there's 120,000 people in the city. Not to mention the animals. [00:26:14] Speaker B: What about the animals? [00:26:15] Speaker A: Jonah so much. The Old Testament's like, you gotta sacrifice the right animal at the right time. You gotta kill it. This is how you kill it. You prepare it, you burn it. And in this one, he's like. And even the animals, like, think about all of them living in darkness. And I love all of them. And it's beautiful. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And these are the pieces. And I want to hit this hard throughout this series, if your whole purpose in Jonah is to try to figure out with a marine biologist how someone can survive or not survive. And what kind of whale it would have to be. You're missing the point. You're missing the literature. You're missing what it's pointing to in Jesus. And so, yeah, when I think about how. How our kids and youth are learning about the Bible, I hope they hear these stories. And then I hope the conversations that happen after that lead towards, like, what is God up to? How is God's compassion something that cuts against what we would normally feel? Those are the right conversations to have. Not like, well, and technically, if he was swallowed by this kind of blue whale, and then he could like, okay, maybe that's a curiosity, but that's not the point of the text. [00:27:26] Speaker A: That's really good. And this is a great example of. Of everything that you're talking about when we just have to arrive at the right question. And you can believe. Go ahead and believe that it was a real whale or a real fish or. That was. That was the one comment I had between service. And he's like, well, whale's not a fish. And I was like, oh, my gosh. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Yes, we're aware. Do you know that a whale is a mammal? [00:27:51] Speaker A: Do you even know it's got fins and. And it's in the water? I'm not gonna do this right now. But you can believe that. Go for it. I don't care. But the question to ask at the end of it is, what is God up to? And clearly the story, however it comes, if it's myth, if it's satire, if it's real history, if it's. Whatever it is, Jesus found it important enough to retell the story with his better version. And that's where we have to arrive at the whole thing. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And to say that you can believe it or not, we're not saying the Bible can be true or can be false. We're saying you can interpret it as a certain type of literature or as a history or as satire, and hopefully you come to the right conclusion that it points to Jesus, whether you think of it as satire or history. So I just think we have to break out of that idea of, you know, that our English translation is to be taken literally or we're falling into heresy. It's just not good reading. It's not good interpretation to look at it that way. [00:28:58] Speaker A: And Jesus doesn't sit down with people that are following after him and go, here's the deal. This is how powerful God is. God can allow a man to live inside of a fish for three days. And I need you to get this before you really Understand what I'm after here and how powerful I am. He doesn't do that. It's another way, kind of a long form version of saying. You have heard it said, xyz, but I say, and that's what he's doing. You've heard the story of Jonah and you know of his heroics and how he's listening to the call of God and coming back. But I'm even better than that. And let me give you a real hero. [00:29:33] Speaker B: And it's in that passage where I think Jesus pushes against our desire for certainty. Because he says, if you remember, he says to the Pharisees, he says, a wicked generation, a wicked and crooked generation looks for a sign, but the only sign you're going to get is the sign of Jonah. And by the way, he doesn't explain what that means. And the disciples later would look back and realize, like, oh, his death, his time in the tomb and his resurrection, that was the sign of Jonah he was talking about in the moment. He doesn't explain anything. All he does is push back and say, stop looking for God to give you certainty about things. Stop looking for a sign so that you can either prove or disprove that I am who I say I am. The only sign you get is when I die and then I come back. And that should be enough for us too. And we want to assign all of these things. And like, if we only have the archeology to prove our faith. No, we only get one sign. We only get one proof, and that is our faith in the resurrection, the bodily resurrection of Jesus. And if our faith can't be hung just on that, then I think we're putting our faith in the wrong things. [00:30:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I will admit, before going into this series and even talking about Jonah, I think we almost cut it and it got back in. I don't know. [00:30:41] Speaker B: That was me. I was like, it's too intense. Just preach in one message. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Well, and so your argument can be pushed against or made right now. Right. Like, there's a lot of depth to it. And I've known, read the story several times. I think we've touched on this in the last couple years, but there's a richness to it that seems to eclipse so many of the other stories. And, you know, it's not resentment toward how I've been taught about it growing up or anything like that, but man, what a disservice to stop at. Can a man live in a belly of a whale? Or what a disservice to stop at Noah's prayer inside the mountain. You know, what a bummer to leave it so incomplete because again, the more honest and the full reading makes me really fall in love with it. And I hope that's a sense that people are getting. If you felt some reluctance about jumping into Old Testament stuff, like I have at several points in my life, I think an honest and open reading that connects itself to Jesus is such a deep relief and excitement and helps you fall in love with the text and unafraid to jump into a lot of this stuff. [00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And what comfort it brings. Right. I think of people that are sick or have terminal illness or facing death to read the story and see the prayer of Jonah. That gives us this hope that God sees us even when we're facing the end. Or to know that Jesus himself, like Jonah, has entered into death and so we don't have to be afraid of it because he's been there. I mean, isn't that much more beautiful than with your dying breath being like, if I could just prove, you know, if I could just prove if the Tower of Babel was real. You know, let's not waste our final breath or any breaths in the middle trying to prove that. Let's look for where Jesus shows up. [00:32:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And the I could just prove or I could just do, I think is actually important. That's actually really important application point for us. And I didn't frame it this way. I cut it from the message kind of at the last second. But I wanted to get into, you know, we don't just need a better Jonah, but we need a better hobby. We need a better idea of measure for success. We need a better. And I didn't want to push against, like, people having hobbies, I guess, was the idea of take a while to explain. Well, there's all these things that bring, like, a certain kind of fulfillment. Right. And then you kind of pull on the thread, and you pull on the thread and eventually my hobby that was running, I can't do anymore because I've reached a certain age. Or you put kind of hope and identity in all these things, and for one reason or the other, your friends stop doing it with you. Yeah. You reach a certain age, they all fall flat. And we entertain ourselves with these things and for good reason. And we should have hobbies, but even that will let you down eventually, whatever the case is. [00:33:28] Speaker B: I wouldn't know because as we hear a lot around here, I don't have any hobbies. [00:33:32] Speaker A: Well, I said it yesterday from the platform. I rem. Really have any Hobbit. Is coaching your kid a hobby? Yeah, because I do that all the time. Yeah. [00:33:40] Speaker B: No, I mean, I think sports is solidly your hobby, Ben. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah, sports. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Playing them, though, so, like, I. I don't even have that, bro. [00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, why don't you coach Jack? Soccer or something? [00:33:54] Speaker B: Lindsay, do you have hobbies? [00:33:59] Speaker C: Gosh, I don't know if I do. I enjoy reading. Is that a hobby? [00:34:04] Speaker A: I don't think so. [00:34:06] Speaker C: Really? [00:34:06] Speaker B: Well, yeah. What qualifies as a hobby? [00:34:08] Speaker C: That's a great question. [00:34:10] Speaker A: I don't say that to be mean. [00:34:12] Speaker C: What's a hobby? [00:34:13] Speaker B: Whittling. Whittling sticks into carvings. [00:34:17] Speaker C: I don't do that. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Does there have to be a physical element? [00:34:21] Speaker C: Does there. [00:34:22] Speaker A: Like gardening sounds like a hobby. But reading doesn't to me for some reason. [00:34:26] Speaker B: Oh, I think reading. [00:34:26] Speaker A: I don't. [00:34:27] Speaker B: I think reading probably does, but reading's a hobby. Like, art would be a hobby. Music, if you do it outside of your career, would be a hobby. You know, Justin, you play mandolin. That would be a hobby. He collects very expensive picks. [00:34:42] Speaker A: Yeah, we learned that. Goodness. Mandolin picks are expensive. That's crazy. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Cedar box for them. [00:34:48] Speaker A: Well, okay. Reading is a hobby. [00:34:50] Speaker C: Yeah, I crochet. There's one I enjoy crocheting. [00:34:53] Speaker B: There you go. What do you. It's very much a hobby. [00:34:56] Speaker C: It depends. I crocheted baby blankets for both my girls. I crocheted, like a wall hanging that I have in my office that I really like. [00:35:03] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:04] Speaker B: Stuff like that. [00:35:05] Speaker A: I mean, is it just something you spend time doing out of work that you enjoy? [00:35:10] Speaker C: Probably. Right. [00:35:11] Speaker A: But, like, watching TV's not a hobby. [00:35:12] Speaker C: No, I wouldn't say that's a hobby. [00:35:14] Speaker B: No. But I would say watch the line. Watching your favorite team throughout their season and following players. That would be a hobby. [00:35:22] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I mean, I do. That I'm listening to. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess you have to see it in contrast because as someone who doesn't care and doesn't that sure like to see you be very into it, I would be like, yeah, obviously. It's not like you're just blindly sitting in front of a TV and letting it wash over you. [00:35:41] Speaker A: You care. I'm occupied by that. [00:35:43] Speaker B: I don't care. I don't care. Did you see. [00:35:46] Speaker A: Have you guys. So this is. I was curious if this would be a crossover for us. Did you get algorithm to any fan reaction stuff from the Mariners playoff game last night? They won dramatic fashion. And there's this great shot after they take a 32 lead. It's in Seattle. Great shot of a guy with these big dark frame glasses and they show one crowd shot. And it's the typical guys, like, looking into the camera like, we're number one. And then they go to another one and it's people with their arms in the air. And they go to this guy with the dark room glasses and he's not moving and there's just tears on his cheeks. And then they go back to the game. [00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:26] Speaker A: And then they go back to him, and this woman who's with him looks at him, takes the glasses off of his face and wipes his tears. [00:36:37] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [00:36:37] Speaker A: And he just kind of like leans into her embrace. And I, like, wanted to cry watching just this guy looking so, like, beaten and exhausted and someone wipes his tears and he's just like, thank you. [00:36:55] Speaker B: Sorry. Was this for the opposite team or was he. He was a. He was a marriage. He was a marriage fan. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So he was celebrating. Celebrating. Yeah. [00:37:03] Speaker B: Kind of cruel if they kept cutting a guy who was just softly weeping from the loss. Poor Tigers fan in the crowd. I did. I did watch the Seahawks lose last night. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Oh, that was painful. [00:37:13] Speaker B: That was hard. [00:37:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Yeah. What a close. [00:37:15] Speaker A: Fun game. Yeah, fun game. And I'd be really broken hearted if the Mariners would have lost immediately after that. So as you guys have been to that area, Seattle, they had a Mariners playoff game Saturday night, followed by a Timbers soccer game, Sounders Timbers soccer game, followed by a Seahawks game, and then a Mariners game that night. [00:37:33] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:37:33] Speaker A: All in that pocket. [00:37:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:35] Speaker A: Crazy. I don't know who won. Sounders, Timbers, I wasn't paying attention. I was caught up in everything else. But can you guys imagine sports right in that area, like at almost the same time? And it gets pretty slamming. [00:37:46] Speaker B: I wonder if there's any. I would assume there's probably some really fancy high rise condos that can see multiple fields. You know, at the right angle, they. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Can probably go in for 1,000 bucks a night. [00:37:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:59] Speaker A: The other night. Yeah. Have you been. Have you been in the big football stadium down there, Lindsay, for like a concert maybe? [00:38:05] Speaker C: What's it called? [00:38:06] Speaker A: Coldplay? It's called Lumen now. CenturyLink. [00:38:09] Speaker C: I think maybe I saw John Mayer there a couple of years ago. [00:38:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I think he's played in that arena before. Venues are cool. [00:38:16] Speaker B: I haven't been to Lubin. Yeah, we've been to T Mobile, but not Lubin. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. They have. You know, Ed Sheeran has had the most people in that stadium. [00:38:28] Speaker B: I've heard, concert wise, he's like up there with like Taylor Swift level attendance. [00:38:34] Speaker A: He beat her immediately after she played in Seattle. I guess like he eclipsed her by like six, seven thousand people or something like that. I don't know how they got more people in for Ed Sheeran than they did for Taylor Swift. [00:38:46] Speaker B: Well, isn't Taylor Swift's stage so large it probably takes up thousands of seats maybe that you can normally have people packed on the field, Right? [00:38:54] Speaker A: Maybe. Have you been to Taylor Swift show? [00:38:55] Speaker B: No, but I watched part of the eras with Clara. [00:38:58] Speaker A: You did? How was it? [00:39:00] Speaker B: I mean, it's impressive. [00:39:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:01] Speaker B: Just the endurance to get through. It's like a three hour show, three, four hour concert. How does she do that? Yeah, because it's not just stand like she's dancing and moving and running and it's wild. [00:39:15] Speaker A: It's almost like what Lindsey does on a Sunday. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:17] Speaker A: Here. Yeah, almost. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Basically the same thing. [00:39:20] Speaker A: So close. Can you imagine doing a three and a half hour show? [00:39:23] Speaker C: I mean, that's kind of Christmas Eve. Except there's breaks. I get breaks. Yeah, yeah. And we're not dancing. [00:39:30] Speaker A: We're there for a long time. For sure. [00:39:33] Speaker C: But singing for three and a half hours. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:39:36] Speaker C: I don't think I could physically do that. [00:39:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:39] Speaker B: How much is she letting the. The multiple backing tracks that she probably has cued and blending. [00:39:45] Speaker A: Is that the word on the street? [00:39:47] Speaker B: I mean, I think you'd have to. To be able to survive a tour like that, wouldn't you? [00:39:51] Speaker A: I would think so. [00:39:53] Speaker B: And probably not always. I'm sure there's a lot of real live, but there has to be some, you know, during all the choreography and stuff, don't you think? [00:40:02] Speaker A: You don't think there's like a wellness regimen good enough to keep your throat. [00:40:08] Speaker B: It'd have to be all the above, wouldn't it? [00:40:10] Speaker C: I don't know how someone could do that one time, let alone night after night after night after night. But I don't know. She's very wealthy. I'm sure she could. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:18] Speaker C: I remember of all the things in. [00:40:20] Speaker A: Klamath when I was a worship pastor, I was doing a worship practice on Thursday night, leading Thursday night and then two services on Sunday. And I felt like my voice was constantly like on the verge of going out and that was all I was doing, leading a worship band. [00:40:33] Speaker B: And what's weird is you had the same regimen as Taylor Swift does today. [00:40:37] Speaker A: That's right. [00:40:37] Speaker B: You kind of pioneered it. [00:40:38] Speaker A: That's right. [00:40:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Vocal rap, wellness lozenges. Yeah. [00:40:42] Speaker A: I wasn't Screaming at football games immediately after Sunday morning services or anything like that. Wouldn't be me. [00:40:48] Speaker B: It's amazing. [00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah, it is amazing. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Reviews are in on Taylor Swift's new album, I guess. Are they good? Not looking good. Uh oh, it's not looking good. [00:40:56] Speaker A: Why? [00:40:57] Speaker B: I think people think it feels like a sellout or something. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Oh. [00:41:03] Speaker B: I'm not actually a Taylor Swift fan, so I watch with interest. Just on the cultural phenomenon side of it all. But yeah, some people think maybe she's too happy now. You can't win, right? You can't win. [00:41:18] Speaker A: Sick existence. It is for the artist. [00:41:20] Speaker B: Right. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Like you talk, almost all of your success is based on some kind of grief or heartbreak or soul rending. And then you get happy and people are like, this sucks. Yeah, I don't need this product. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Yeah, boring. Give me something else. [00:41:33] Speaker A: Good for her being I genuinely happy, it seems. I've seen a few interviews. She looks like she's on top of the world, man. [00:41:41] Speaker B: Good for her. Yeah, it's impressive. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Are you a Taylor Swift fan? [00:41:45] Speaker C: I'm not, no. No, I'm not. But I saw we're all speaking out, people reacting to her new album. I have not listened to it, so I'm not. [00:41:52] Speaker B: Not. [00:41:52] Speaker A: I don't know what was the last one that was so good. [00:41:54] Speaker C: Her albums. [00:41:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that hit big. It was one before. [00:41:58] Speaker B: I don't know her stuff. Okay, well, yeah, that's the wrong room. I think we got to go back. [00:42:03] Speaker A: To Mariners baseball, release. One of us knows what we're talking about. [00:42:06] Speaker C: 2000S worship music. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Talk about evangelical church in the last 20 years. And I'll talk all day. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah. My mom and dad had a band called Dean, Dan, Patty, and Patty. [00:42:19] Speaker C: Yeah, they did. They did. [00:42:22] Speaker A: Dean and Dan were roommates, and Patty and Patty were roommates and they married across the way. [00:42:27] Speaker B: That's beautiful. Yeah. What kind of music? I can imagine. But tell me. [00:42:31] Speaker A: I mean, it was in that, like. Yeah. Phillips Craig and Dean kind of a vibe. [00:42:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:35] Speaker A: You're heavy on the harmonies and picking of the acoustic guitars. Most tracks had two acoustic guitars on them. [00:42:42] Speaker B: My family band. Not family band, church band. But my oldest brother and my mom, they were in it. It was called in his time because time, you know, you got to keep time in his time. And they would sing his favorite song of all, which was a Phillips Craig indeed. [00:43:01] Speaker A: Oh, really? [00:43:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:02] Speaker B: It's the song of the redeemed. When lost sinners now made whole. [00:43:07] Speaker A: Yes. [00:43:07] Speaker B: Stand to sin. That's right. [00:43:10] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh, what a song. [00:43:12] Speaker B: And one of the guitarists who actually led the band. He was quite a bit older and in his old age, I think he might have passed, actually, because he was quite a bit older. But he would. In retirement, he'd go out to the High Desert Museum dressed in pioneer wear, and he'd play the banjo, get out in costume as one of the pioneers in their old pioneer town. Settler town. [00:43:38] Speaker A: I love it so much. [00:43:39] Speaker B: Have you guys been out to High Desert Museum with the kids? [00:43:42] Speaker C: Yeah, we're members. [00:43:43] Speaker B: You are? [00:43:44] Speaker C: We love that place. It's great. [00:43:45] Speaker A: You're members? Yeah. Tell me about the membership. What do you get out of this? [00:43:49] Speaker C: Really? [00:43:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:53] Speaker C: You get to go. You pay for the membership. You get to go for free for the year, and then you get guest passes so you can bring family members. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Are there, like, events during the year that you get particular? [00:44:03] Speaker C: That's a good question. I get lots of emails about events. We haven't gone to one, but I don't know if that's like, member exclusive or if it's open to the community. [00:44:12] Speaker A: But I do love it out there. I think they do a good job with the Native American exhibits and things like that. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Spirit of the West. [00:44:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:19] Speaker A: Very cool. One quick note before we leave on Otters. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Dean, Patty and Patty. [00:44:25] Speaker A: I think I've said this on the podcast before. I can't remember. Dean and Patty are the father and mother of Stacy Aico. Have I brought that up? [00:44:32] Speaker C: Oh, no. [00:44:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So that was one thing that came out of the band was eventually with Stacy Aurico, very musical daughter. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Give me Stacy, aico's famous biggest hit. I can't think of a single Stacy a Rico right now. [00:44:45] Speaker C: I have it. Are you ready? [00:44:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker C: Don't look at me. If you're looking for perfection, don't look at me. [00:44:54] Speaker B: That's all I gotta. [00:44:57] Speaker A: There's gotta be. Which I think is what you were just singing. [00:45:01] Speaker B: There's gotta be. [00:45:02] Speaker C: Nope. That's genuine. There's gotta be more to life then chasing down every temporary high oh, that's right. [00:45:12] Speaker A: She was on, like, the Disney Channel. Trl. [00:45:13] Speaker C: She was? [00:45:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah. She was a big deal for a while. [00:45:17] Speaker B: There's also a connection that we have here. A guy who came to the church for a little while. I think he still might be in town. He's in law enforcement, but his last name is Barlow. His cousins. No, the Barlow sisters. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Kyle, get that guy on the podcast. [00:45:33] Speaker B: We should get the Barlow stuff. Andrew Barlow, if you're listening, we want you back. I do think he's in town still. But anyway, if you want a great. [00:45:41] Speaker A: Niche of Mariners baseball, 90s and 2000s evangelical pop and worship and Jonah and the Whale, this is your podcast, man. Like, this is the spot. [00:45:53] Speaker B: And this is why our numbers continue to dwindle into the single digits. Single digits. [00:46:00] Speaker A: More fun. The morale is increasing in the office, and that's what this podcast. [00:46:05] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe this. It will end up no listeners, but just it'll serve to, like, keep a record of this church leadership. You know, it'll exist somewhere on a CD eventually. [00:46:16] Speaker A: We're just doing it for three hours of, like, food chewing in the microphone. [00:46:21] Speaker B: You want to hear me eat soup? [00:46:26] Speaker A: Zupotiskana Sounds delicious. [00:46:29] Speaker B: All right, well, I think we should wrap it up there. [00:46:32] Speaker A: Oh, I should have wrapped it up a while ago. Probably. Fun. [00:46:35] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Lindsay Clutch with those Stacy Rico lyrics. Nice. [00:46:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm surprised. Just tip of my tongue. [00:46:41] Speaker B: You didn't look it up. [00:46:42] Speaker A: You just knew them. [00:46:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:44] Speaker B: I'm impressed. It's good. [00:46:46] Speaker A: It's as close I'm gonna get to celebrity. My middle name is Dean. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Oh, after Stacy Rico's dad. [00:46:51] Speaker A: After her dad. [00:46:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Old man. That's right. Is that their last name? [00:46:56] Speaker A: Arico is the last. Yeah, yeah. Dean and Patty. [00:46:58] Speaker B: Arico. Dean Arico. Dean Arico. That is amazing. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Great name. [00:47:02] Speaker B: So much better than my name. [00:47:03] Speaker A: He's going to be so happy he. [00:47:04] Speaker B: Got mentioned on it. It's not hard to beat my.