Love Your Neighbor (and Yourself)

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming and I'm joined as always, by our producer, Lindsay Parnell and this last Weekend's speaker and Mr. Mike Meeks. Mike, how's it going? Your third time on the podcast. [00:00:29] Speaker B: I'm now a veteran. That's right, I am a veteran, but I was a disc jockey, so I'm kind of used to some of this. [00:00:35] Speaker A: Were you really? [00:00:36] Speaker B: Yes, yes. When I was 18, 19 years old at Lane Community College. [00:00:43] Speaker A: All right. [00:00:43] Speaker B: On a jazz station that we had there at the school. Yeah. [00:00:46] Speaker A: Did you know anything about jazz? [00:00:48] Speaker B: I did not. Yeah, know a lot about jazz. [00:00:50] Speaker A: So what did you say between the songs? [00:00:52] Speaker B: Well, you know, it really wasn't that important because what was? All you had to do is just say it lower. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:00:57] Speaker B: And slower. Hi, I'm Mike and I'm gonna be with you till three. You just had to sound kind of bitching, you know, that was really all. [00:01:08] Speaker A: It was a Persona. It was a feeling of cool. [00:01:11] Speaker B: It was, you know, and I have a face for radio, so it worked out well. [00:01:16] Speaker A: I don't know, Mike. You're a pretty good looking guy, I gotta say. Yeah, you class the place up pretty well. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Okay, well, well, I was fishing for that. So that's why I made my comment. [00:01:25] Speaker A: And hard to believe this is your third time ever on a podcast. Only three times with us, but three times ever on a podcast. That radio career early in your life. [00:01:34] Speaker B: It'S like segue all the way. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So you did. Have you played a little bit of music on the platform this last weekend? You had a visual in a trash can and a paper towel set as well as you rolled in more than a feeling in reference to this conversation around love. So to paint the picture, we were talking about Jesus. New commandment out of Mark 12 this weekend. [00:01:58] Speaker B: No, that wasn't the new commandment. [00:02:00] Speaker A: Not the new commandment, no. [00:02:01] Speaker B: He was quoting the commandments. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Just thought I'd clarify. Let's not get our theology completely good. [00:02:08] Speaker A: Looking and smarter than me. But you were talking about love. Of course. Because it's, you know, there's a love, doctor. And more than a feeling slowly came out over the speakers in the room, which. So I knew because you had emailed me that audio file I was in that I was in part of the planning. And yet you're in the middle of the message. And I think that's a ringtone for a Minute I hear you probably thought. [00:02:37] Speaker B: It was someone's phone. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I thought. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:02:39] Speaker A: Until it got louder. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker A: And then you made a little reference to it. Were there any other songs in consideration than More Than a Feeling? There's lots of love songs out there. [00:02:46] Speaker B: No, I actually, you know, was just stumbled across a video and I went, oh, I could use this. And. And the rest is history. [00:02:56] Speaker A: Fantastic. So the idea that love is more than a Feeling, and you referenced this and told stories around your marriage and some of your relationships, how have you been able to actually transform through the spiritual journey as a pastor? Right. Which I always find it's really difficult to me, people maybe think we do it for the stories. You know, we act out and lash out and get angry and all this Stu stuff just to tell some stories. Sometimes it's funny to be more. [00:03:26] Speaker B: Whenever I'm in a sinful track, I'm only going for the illustration. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. [00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:32] Speaker A: But it's funny to be working this out in our own personal lives while teaching it on the weekends. Right. So how have you done that over the course of the last several years of trying to understand how to truly love people better and not just teach it? [00:03:47] Speaker B: Well, it is amazing whenever you're going to be doing a sermon how leading up to it, you're faced with your inadequacies in whatever area that you're talking about. I always have to look at my own life. And it seems like, for example, if we're in a. If we were in a marriage series, it seemed like that's when my marriage sucked the most is during that series. And I was confronted with, I'm kind of the reason and having to deal with it. And if you're going to actually care about it, it's about applying it. And I have just found that when I find myself in those places, try and not just brush it off, but to say, okay, before I can talk about this, I've got to deal with me. And I just think actually being open to and being willing to say, you're right, you're right, Lord, and I want to change while you're in the middle of facing whatever challenge that's in front of you, not just blaming someone else, but just, hey, my part. I mean, how many times have we sat in counseling situations with a couple and it's all his fault, it's all her fault. And I've always kind of just taken the approach. I'm sure you're right. Let's deal with the 5% that's your problem. And that generally turns out to be a lot closer to that center line by the time it grows from five. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It tends to blossom, especially when we're in denial. [00:05:35] Speaker A: And you were met specifically, you said in the weeks leading up to a little bit of a car accident in downtown where somebody opened the passenger side door of their vehicle right into yours. [00:05:45] Speaker B: Smashed my car with their stupid passenger door. I didn't even go into what a beater. [00:05:51] Speaker A: It was their car or yours? [00:05:54] Speaker B: Well, now mine too. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:59] Speaker B: But yeah, it was great. Yeah, I know. Of course I wasn't really thinking about the sermon at that point, but it was one of those. As soon as I was, you know, love is not easily angered, I went, oh my gosh. That was the story recent that came to mind immediately was how literally I was just immediately turned on the anger. [00:06:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:26] Speaker B: And I really wanted to lay into her until I actually saw this, you know, 14, 13 year old girl looking at me and I just couldn't do it. [00:06:37] Speaker A: That's good. [00:06:38] Speaker B: Yes, that's good. [00:06:40] Speaker A: Good for you. But it does love, it seems to take on and I think is what I've underestimated as I've, you know, the longer I've lived that it seems to take on these different presentations or ways of needing to manifest itself. Like I remember being 15, 16, 17 and feeling like I was a really romantic, you know, person who was really, when you were 15, who was not dating anyone. Yeah, no, I'm not saying it was reality. I'm saying you kind of make these things up about yourself. [00:07:11] Speaker B: Well, I wrestled 98 pounds as a freshman, so I didn't do a lot of dating. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I didn't either, but that was just. Cause my best friend was the good looking one, you know, So I was the go between. Like, oh, if we become Ben's friend, we can get to Joel and then Joel will be. That'll be my boyfriend for life for sure. But I remember thinking of love in a certain way. Right. And it's this kind of sweeping away romance. And then Rebecca and I got married pretty early. Not quite as early as you and Carmen did. We got married at 22 and then having ideas of what that love needed to be or what it would look like. And then how it's just shifted and changed and called me into something else. All along these different mile markers. Now being in mid-30s and having a couple kids, love has gotten richer and deeper and more exhausting and more comprehensive. Like, do you, does that ring a bell to you? [00:08:11] Speaker B: Does that Feel true. Well, certainly true. And I think when you are married, one of the things that you're going to be confronted with is your selfishness. And I mean, again, to be completely transparent, Carmen was pretty selfish. Yeah, right. I definitely saw how selfish I was in this relationship and I, I just had to come to grips with this is about the other. And because I did really love her, but I didn't really know what that would mean. And, and the things that I would have to confront in myself as I wanted this relationship to grow. And we, we have a great relationship. I am so fortunate that she didn't ditch me. At one point we had two. A toddler and a baby. And it was just tense and difficult and tiring. And at one point we kind of worked through some things. She said, you know, if we'd had any money even for a bus ticket, I would have gone home. But we were so broke, she couldn't leave me. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:09:28] Speaker B: Sometimes, you know, there's other circumstances that I got to stay in this thing, not because it's righteous, not because it's good, but because I can't afford a bus ticket. And we've had several of those kinds of encounters where we really did want to end it. She wanted to end it, I wanted to end it. But neither one of us could actually get the Lord to sign off. And ultimately we wanted to be walking with Jesus more than we wanted to be single and letting him call the shot. You know what's a great word for faith is giving Jesus the last word on whatever choices you're making, whatever faith choice that's in front of you. And we try to just give him always the last word. And when two people are both doing that, I think you can get through anything. Anything. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Some of the irony is that in these times of shared brokenness where you're together and both feeling a bit hopeless or under resourced or not knowing where to go next. The irony is that that certainly can be a crossroads for separation for people in romantic relationships, but even in friendships or in this, even in their faith life, right. Of separation from Christianity or whatever they've been following after. But the other side of that coin is that that shared brokenness can be a place of real development of love, where there can be a new level of depth. And I shared a quick story the weekend before where sometimes when I talk to people in premarital counseling stuff that are in, maybe they're my age and they're about to get married and they go, yeah, so what did you do? Did you combine bank accounts or did you keep them separate? You know, because she has this and makes this and she owns it. I go, well, we combined our bank account of 0. The math was really easy. She actually took on my negative $35 or whatever from the latest overdraft fee. And sure, we shared nothing. [00:11:33] Speaker B: It was very easy. It was like the first time I heard about tithing. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:37] Speaker B: I'm 18 years old, and I was reading something in scripture, and I said. And I asked my friend Mike Piccone, who. A roommate, who's really a wonderful believer in kind of helping me along in this process. And I said, mike, what's a tithie? [00:11:54] Speaker A: Yeah, a tithe. [00:11:55] Speaker B: A tithe. What's a tithie? And so he explained it to me, and so I immediately started tithing. And, you know, it was like two bucks a month. So it was really easy. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I can do this. I can handle. [00:12:13] Speaker B: I can actually handle it. But those. Those points of shared pain, you know, how do we bring all this together? The romantic is wonderful, but it's not. It's not enough to sustain the weight of life. Because, one, I tend to want what I want when I want it. And when you have another person in that mix, it changes. And then you had a baby. And now I realized not only am I selfish and don't really know how to do this marriage thing, now I'm a father and I love this kid so much, but I don't know what I'm doing. And, you know, especially the first kid, I mean, dang, they have it rough because I had no clue. And, you know, our kid was colicky for nine months. And I remember just not knowing what to do, and it forced me to my knees. Great. Pastor Ron, Mel, he used to say, never despise the things that drive you to your knees. And that baby drove me to my knees. And I'll never forget. I call it my Kunta Kinte moment, where three in the morning, and I lifted this kid up to God and said, you have to help me. I'm so afraid I'm going to hurt this kid. I'm going to be a bad dad. You know, I'm going to. Didn't mean I was going to beat the kid or anything, but that I. That me and who I am is going to be bad for who he becomes. And I just didn't want to do that and dedicated him in that 3am moment to the Lord and myself. I need your help to be this dad, and I need his help to be the husband that he's calling me to be. I need his help to be the pastor. I need his help to be the friend. I just need his help. And when you sort of submit yourself to that, it means you're gonna have to change. And that's the hard part. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Then the hardest bit for me in that is I can hear you say that. And you're gonna have to change for me. It's. You're gonna have to change and you have to do it again and again and again. And the 22 year old Ben that spent the first three years of the marriage being like, whoa, this is hard. And exh, we're figuring each other out, but I think maybe we've made some progress. And then we put a kid into the mix and I go, I am worse than I've ever been and more selfish. And then you get down the road a little bit and feel like I figured some things out. And then we had another kid. And then whatever else life might bring to you, for us, it's some parent health issues along with now redoing a house in order to make room for those parents. [00:15:21] Speaker B: Remodeling is always a great way to just shine a light on stress in a relationship. [00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we've done that. [00:15:28] Speaker B: It's. We have, we have. We remodeled our home and lived in it while it was remodeled, which was really super fun. That was. That was a great decision on my part. Saving a few bucks. Yeah. [00:15:43] Speaker A: And I had a similar feeling with, with Joel when he was young and. Did you have colicky kids? [00:15:51] Speaker C: We had reflexy kids. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Reflexy kids. Which is. [00:15:54] Speaker C: Both of them were. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Yeah, basically. [00:15:56] Speaker B: Was that like barfing all the time? [00:15:59] Speaker C: It's like. It's like baby heartburn. I know, it's horrible. [00:16:04] Speaker B: That would break your heart. [00:16:06] Speaker C: It's awful. It's. You're in the similar spot with a colicky baby. You're helpless. There's nothing you can do. [00:16:11] Speaker B: Nothing. [00:16:13] Speaker A: And Joel was just not. And he's still a terrible sleeper. Just. He moves around all the time. He takes a little bit to get to sleep. We've got a lot more routines in place where it's pretty manageable. But I remember having a similar thing where I was two and a half hours in just trying to get him to sleep and it was late at night. And you watch those things as a parent go away. So I say at first, okay, I'm going to put Joel to bed and then I'm going to have a little bit of time with Rebecca and I, and then I can have some time to myself. And the clock keeps ticking and you go, well, Rebecca's probably already asleep, that's fine. Or maybe I'll have a little bit of time with myself. He stays up and then before I know it, it's 11 o'clock at night, no progress. And I do the same thing. I just, he's crying, screaming in the crib and I just walk out and I close the door and I sat on the floor in the hallway and I was like, I just don't know how to ever get past whatever's going on right now. He's not sick. I wish he were sick. And then maybe I could have a solution or something like that. It's this really claustrophobic, hopeless feeling. And that was one night with one kid that was pretty healthy, so a pretty privileged spot. But then you consider that this same feeling happens in again, friendships and romantic relationships where you hit these points where you go, I feel like I've come so far and I feel like I'm so lost and exhausted all at the same time. And the ability to get out of that or to move forward or to sit and to own that for a moment and then go for it, it's just, it feels so impossible. But this feel like the journey of love so often. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Well, I think that's true. One of the things I didn't really get into in the talk was when Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. And I think that's been one of the things that for me self love is kind of a difficult topic because I'm kind of a survivor. Grew up, you know, we put the fun in dysfunction and you know, six boys, one girl, I'm the youngest and I don't, I don't have any recollection of any supervision in my life past about six years old. And so I was on my own. [00:18:27] Speaker A: Until Carmen showed up. And then that was probably some of. [00:18:29] Speaker B: The things she showed up. And you know, she had no idea that this marriage was going to be a parenting role before she had kids. But it certainly turned out that way for her. And I will say, you know, she's amazing. My wife is really seriously one of the kindest. I have said this before, I think she's maybe the best Christian I know and that's, we've been married 48 plus years and boy, I believe that more today than I ever have. But she has helped me to learn to love me and you know, I'll say certain things that are pretty funny but kind of self deprecating and she'll say that's not true. Don't say that. I don't want you to believe that I said. But it was so funny. [00:19:26] Speaker A: Don't spoil the joke. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Don't spoil the joke with, you know, being deep. But I think that whole idea of loving yourself, you know, another thing that I had in there that I didn't get to in the talk because I kept seeing that clock that I needed to snap it up here a bit was an article by a woman who'd been a hospice nurse for over 20 years. And she had kind of, here's the top four things that I've heard from my dying clients. And the fourth one on the list. I brought it. I want to read it. I regret that I judged myself so much and didn't love myself more. And it was sort of. That was the one that they wish they could have just given themselves a little more grace and a little more. It's okay, you can pick it up from here, you know, and the idea that God really wants us to love ourselves. And the only way that I can ever get to that point is when I really get ahold of how much he loves me, which I think will be discovering for eternity, you know, but he really digs me quite a lot. He's so into me. And I'm coming to believe that. And it's really helping me to be, you know, one of the little sayings that we had in our church in San Diego and still have down there, but it's, you know, what's the definition of Christian maturity? And so I said, well, we define it this way. I'm a quicker repenter than I used to be. And I think the quicker I can come to that place of, oh, wait a minute, that was wrong. I just want to own it. I repent. I'm moving. I'm making that half turn toward you right now. Jesus, let's start again. And I think that that self love makes it so much easier to adjust path, you know, reset the sails. And I want to be able to do that quickly because I can take a path that is destructive so quickly and moves me down a direction that I end up hurting. Not just me. And self love rooted in God's love is a powerful thing. Self love can also become narcissism. That's why rooted in God's love is such a key. I need to have that self love filled with gratitude for the love that he's given to me. And when I'm in that place and I'm willing to quickly turn, that's when the difficulties in relationships can. They can be resolved much easier and with less tension and with less defensiveness, to just go, wait a minute. My wife and I want the same thing. We want to have a great relationship. So now when we have a point of disagreement or tension, we don't fight each other. We're a team to say, let's deal with that thing. And, you know, so these. Those conversations of restoration, they happen with a lot less defensiveness. And, you know, because I love a good debate. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Me too. [00:23:31] Speaker B: I am such a good arguer. And my wife grew up in a, you know, a Scandinavian home where you just didn't, you know, everything kind of got stuffed. And in my home, it wouldn't be unusual for somebody to just reach across the table and blast somebody else in the face. And, you know, we were very out front with what we were thinking and feeling. And. Which is not, by the way, better, but the two together, the stuffer and the let's talk it out. Well, it was not safe for her because of the way I had to win in those conversations, and that was part of the change that needed to take place in my life. But, you know, certainly it wasn't just good for my marriage. It's good for all of my relationships to not feel like I have to win. Why do I feel that way? Well, brokenness, insecurity, you know, having to survive on my own, all those things come into play. And I bring this wonderful mess into this marriage. And, you know, everybody has their own story. Everybody has, you know, their own list. And whether you come from a privileged background or a poor one, it doesn't matter. You've got your stuff. [00:24:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Rebecca told me in the middle of a fight once, she said, you're not right. You're just better at this than I am. Oh, the fighting and the debating, that's brilliant. [00:25:10] Speaker C: Very profound. [00:25:11] Speaker A: And the irony is that she won. I think the fight. [00:25:14] Speaker B: The fight was over. [00:25:15] Speaker C: That's the mic drop. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Because I do. I think of it like, almost like sport or whatever. And I grew up on talk radio or sports. Talk radio. And I grew up. I like this. That's kind of how I. I understand my own self and my own thoughts. And so, yeah, we're not. You're not just gonna talk at me and then have me say nothing or vice versa. I'll say something to you, but then I want. Give me something back, you know, like, fire away. And she would look at me that way and just go, this is. This isn't fun for me. I'm not enjoying this. And when you raise your voice, I feel very afraid, actually. I don't feel like we're getting to know each other on a different level. [00:25:58] Speaker B: You know, you're yelling at me. [00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah, this is me communicating honestly. Isn't it great? [00:26:03] Speaker C: It's like, this is fun. [00:26:04] Speaker A: Don't you love me? Romance. [00:26:05] Speaker B: This is us so bad. Well, and then, you know, you're gonna have extended family members, and it's a time of tension, you know, in our culture. And so you're going to have family members on one side or another of whatever the current tension is. And how are you going to apply some of this stuff I'm learning in my marriage to just my relationships with my family? And I have found I have. I go to one family member house, and it's way over here on one side of a debate, and then literally, we went from one to another within a couple hours. We got in the car afterwards and we went, whoo. This has been. This has been whiplash because it was a matter of fact, we don't want these two groups to get together because I have found one of the things that has helped me so much is to listen to someone's big statements and go, huh, that's interesting. I'm going to need to think about that and nothing else. When what I really want to do is say, well, you're a bigger idiot than I thought. You know, that's what I want to say. But then that makes me the idiot, and I'd rather not be in that position. [00:27:30] Speaker A: There's a lot of things that you said that make me think about the cultural moment. Even politically, it feels like the two sides of the progressives and the conservatives and how things. Because I'm a believer not to get into political theory or whatever. I really think we need both sides. I think we need everybody. And I think we need to be able to talk really well together, because I think this balance helps create a healthier world around us. But it feels like we've hit a point where it's like the progressives and the conservatives are like a mom and dad that don't talk anymore, and we're the kids that are left behind in the whole thing. And I'm going, you guys don't talk, you scream at each other, and then you separate, and then you don't talk, and then you just talk about the other person to someone else. There's no real management of the relationship happening right now. It's just fighting or it's nothing. [00:28:30] Speaker B: Which I think creates an opportunity for this love. [00:28:34] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:28:35] Speaker B: You know, the rest of that. [00:28:36] Speaker A: The repentance that you're talking about needs to come in here. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Yes. Well, the rest of that verse, you know, love one another. Here's this new commandment I gave you. Love one another as I have loved you. It goes on to say, then the world will know that you're my disciples. It'll be so strikingly different if you love people this way that they'll know there's something different here. And, you know, I may not believe what that guy believes, but I sure like him, you know? [00:29:14] Speaker A: And what is that? What makes that dynamic? Right is the question we need to ask ourselves. How can I feel that way? How can I disagree with them, but love them or like them? And that's important. I wish we could kind of bottle that and say, no, this dynamic, whatever's happening between us, means something to me. [00:29:29] Speaker B: Well, I think when I understand how much God loves me, I can begin to understand how much God loves that other person. And if I'm walking into that conversation aware of God's presence in the moment, I can treat that person the way Jesus wants me to treat him. Because I probably going to fail my own effort to do that. But if I can be mindful, especially if I have some indication of what I'm walking into, then I can do a much better job at it. And I want to do a much better job at it. But the environment that we're in. I was having a conversation with somebody after one of the services, and it was. This is. I think it's the most difficult time, you know, for the church because it's so hard and it's so bad. And I said, well, he's my age, been a Christian about the same time I became a Christian. And I said, but think about it. Think about Vietnam, Nixon, all the stuff that was going on and revival broke out. I said, I think we're in a similar season. I think that we can actually really move the ball down the court right now with the gospel. If we can pull this thing off called love one another as I have loved you, and then the people will see, the world will see. They will know that you're my disciples. [00:31:07] Speaker A: That's good. And I wonder if repentance being built into our faith is a huge piece of people being attracted to this because it's one of the missing pieces that I don't think exists. I think if you're a politician right now and you admit you did something wrong or you've changed your mind, you are not allowed to change your mind right now, which is the biggest ingredient to a toxic environment for all of our relationships. Once in your marriage or your friendships, you hit this point where you know you cannot. You don't feel safe to repent or to apologize or say that I've made a mistake. All bets are off. Because everyone's gonna hold their guns, right or wrong. Nobody's gonna learn anything about each other and nobody's gonna ask for forgiveness because there's so much confidence that forgiveness won't be offered. Right. And that's the worst case scenario, not just for our nation or politics, but for us interpersonally. [00:32:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think repentance is not a one time event. It's ongoing. It's a daily kind of a thing. Because I'm always doing stupid stuff. And sometimes I just literally, I like to drive. And I find that other drivers drive me crazy and they're so dumb. And these are the kinds of thoughts that are really not that great. But I have them. And so now what do I do with them? Because that person driving that car, you know, must have gotten their license at Disneyland because it's like a bumper car. And what are they doing? What do they think? You know, I can get bent out of shape because someone leaves three car lengths at a stoplight with the car in front of them. It's like, what's wrong with him? Come on, let's go. And it's like, relax. Do I really need to care about that? No. But I do. [00:33:15] Speaker A: Are you a good repenter, Lindsay? Are you a fast repenter in traffic or. Let's leave traffic out of it. That sounds like the worst of all. [00:33:22] Speaker C: Mike, you were reading my mail. You're talking. And I'm like, yep, amen. That's right, my 8 year old. I'll be like, drive, like we're trying to get somewhere. [00:33:32] Speaker B: Let's go. [00:33:32] Speaker C: And she's like, mom, maybe they're having a hard day. Oh, no. [00:33:36] Speaker A: I know. [00:33:36] Speaker C: I'm like, you're raising one of those. I am not. If she's, you know, if she's learning from my example, she would be right there with me. [00:33:43] Speaker B: That is just the worst kid. [00:33:45] Speaker C: And I'm like, you're right, sweetheart. Grinding my teeth. Am I a quick repenter? I like to think I'm getting better at that. It feels like a muscle to me. The more you exercise it, the easier it is. Maybe not across the board, but I was having a conversation with a friend and she flippantly said something and circled back several days later and was like, hey, I'm sorry for saying that thing. I feel like it could have come off wrong or whatever. And it's inspiring to be in relationship with someone like that, to have that safe connection where she knows, like, I didn't even think of it. I forgive you. It's fine. But that feels easier to do the older I get, but it's not easy. Nonetheless, it's still. It's very hard to say sorry. It's very hard to admit when you're wrong. [00:34:41] Speaker B: I think, you know, being my age and having, you know, many friends who are older and. And parents that went through assisted living and nursing homes and getting to see what I don't want to become had an impact on me. And I just thought I really, when I'm there, you know, in this aged state of care, I want to be kind. And I think I'm going to have to figure that out before I get there or I'm going to end up bitter and everyone around me is going to just want to avoid me and I don't want to be that guy. And what do you want to be? It's like, I think I told this in the last time we met was the counselor that Carmen and I were going to. And he said, you know, this marriage is over. Stick a fork in it. And what you're supposed to be a Christian. And he said, you know, you need a new marriage and why don't you just decide what you want your marriage to be and start doing those things rather than fixing this one. And I think we can do that in our own lives instead of trying to fix everything in us, just decide what do I want to be and start doing it and practicing it. You know, like you said, Lindsay, that muscle, you know, I want to begin to exercise that muscle of loving people as I've been loved and man, because I tend to want, you know, mercy for me and justice for you. I'm a big justice guy, as long as it's pointing to you. But I need to, you know, flip the script and be real quick at Mercy. And that's how I've been loved. [00:36:47] Speaker A: And the muscle aspect of it, I think is really important. I think that's really important. [00:36:52] Speaker B: And I think I'm obviously talking about muscle and bodybuilding, really, both of us, for sure. I think you're the best one to be here today. [00:37:01] Speaker A: And I think again, going back to that, you know, getting married at 22, I think the subconscious feeling about how love is going to work is it's going to be me reacting all the time with love like, oh, yeah, things will happen, and then I will be moved by that thing, and then I will get to love really well. And then you keep going along and you start realizing, oh, my gosh, I actually have to choose this thing. And actually I kind of have to work it in to the situation sometimes because there's almost no room for it. And maybe that's why when we. When we. When we get older, we see people get old toward the end of their life and they're. They're lighter on their feet and they're loving. It's so inspiring. And it has an impact on us because they've seen all the things they've been through the wars they've been through, the relationships, the political unrest. They've moved houses and changed cities. They've done all the things that many of us are right in the middle of, and we go, wow. And how do they feel like that? The texture of how they talk and how they experience life at this stage somehow seems like it's gone through that car wash and come out on the other side feeling so gracious and merciful. And what an inspiring thing, because we know that there's a crossroads in there where you could actually choose the bitterness instead, Right? [00:38:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm just as capable of making that choice toward bitterness, toward anger, toward, you know, acting in my own self interest all the time. And I'm super capable of doing all those things I don't want to. And so I have to deliberately choose something better. And, you know, walking with Jesus, I have the bandwidth to do it. Not. Not because I'm so awesome, but because he has already done it for me. And now I just need to. I need to learn to walk in his ways. And it's process. Yeah, I'm pretty much there now. It's pretty commonly accepted reality that I've arrived. [00:39:15] Speaker A: I think we're all trying to be like Lindsay's husband. Eric, who is one of the kindest people I know, is that he's the. [00:39:20] Speaker C: Reason why Luca says that to me. [00:39:22] Speaker A: There you go. I knew it. [00:39:24] Speaker C: He's raising a right. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Eric is so kind. I know. I don't live with him. I understand that there's some editing that we all do out in public. He is so kind and nice, and. [00:39:36] Speaker C: He'S a very nice man. [00:39:37] Speaker A: He's a dreamy man, that Eric Parnell. What a guy. [00:39:41] Speaker B: Tell me he's not good looking. [00:39:42] Speaker A: He's fantastic looking. Incredible shape. [00:39:45] Speaker B: I already hate him and I haven't met him. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Creative, artistic. The muscles we were talking About a second ago. He owns those and possesses those. [00:39:54] Speaker C: Notice this is coming from Ben and not me. [00:39:56] Speaker B: I know. [00:39:57] Speaker A: I got a big crush on your husband. It's not a secret. It's not a secret. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Little man crush. [00:40:04] Speaker A: Everything that I want to be. I would love to just, you know, be in shape on the quieter side with a personality, and then be really, really incredible in one field that everybody was a little jealous of. Eric is who I want to be. [00:40:16] Speaker B: That's. That's Eric. [00:40:17] Speaker A: Yeah. I've never been quiet. Have you ever been the quiet shy guy? [00:40:20] Speaker B: Never. [00:40:22] Speaker A: I wish I could be. [00:40:23] Speaker B: I wish you could be. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people feel that way, and yet they're stuck with us. [00:40:29] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. No, I've never been the quiet shy guy. And that's, you know, got me in trouble many times because, you know, sometimes something shiny goes by and I have to say it, and it's gonna be so funny. It's gonna be so good, and it's just so not. [00:40:46] Speaker A: You quickly referenced that. The dynamic of coming out of a party or a gathering and getting in the car and your wife just looking at you like, why did you. Did you have to do that? That my life. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:59] Speaker A: Is Rebecca getting in the car with me and going. That was a lot. Like, why did you keep going on that? [00:41:07] Speaker B: Well, I knew I'd put myself in a hole, and so I continued to dig. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. With the optimism that, no, I'm gonna eventually be funny enough to climb out of this hole. Yeah. [00:41:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:41:17] Speaker A: Oh, it's so fun. See this, the debaters, all these things, they. They all go hand in hand together. [00:41:23] Speaker B: Yeah. They're. And, you know, that's how God made me. But he didn't necessarily want me to be completely undisciplined with it. And that's. That's the challenge for me, is to be mindful, you know, pray without ceasing. I always thought, how do you do that? Well, it's a lot easier than having a regular quiet time. For me, I would much rather say I'm going to just try to just be always aware. And so I'm talking to God. Thank God for ear pods now. Because people don't think you're crazy if you're talking to yourself, and it's a cool thing. So now I can just have this conversation with. Just quickly pray, you know. Oh, boy, Lord, I'm really getting impatient here in this car. And I, you know, thank you for helping me right now to just chill, relax, and have the conversation. And I think that Having that ongoing dialogue. I'm reluctant to even call it prayer just because it becomes something in everyone's mind that, you know, I grew up Catholic, so does that mean I need to go into some Our Fathers in Hail Marys or do I just have a conversation with God and believe that he's actually right there and that he cares and is listening? [00:42:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Love is a muscle. I love that self love piece of it too, that I think Jesus connects some of these things on purpose. He says love God and love your neighbor. And by the way, these two things are connected. It's going to be really impossible to love God if you're not actually loving your neighbor. And then he connects these and love your neighbor as yourself. These two things are connected on purpose because you're going to find great difficulty in loving your neighbor if you don't understand that love for yourself. And that is something that I've noticed. Maybe it's my personality or whatever. I'm very willing to skip over for some reason. And it's been a lot of the last four or five years of my life of really digging down deep. I've been a confident person, I've been an outgoing person. And yet somehow those things don't. Haven't always necessarily translated to I feel really, really loved and secure in that love and then I can go from there. And the times where I'm understanding that more and living in that way, I find myself to be a bit less reactionary, competitive, trying to find my way to the top of the heap of wherever I'm at because I feel like I'm loved in that spot. [00:44:14] Speaker B: You know, that's what I get from my wife. She is that person that just absolutely loves me. I am so confident in her love for me and her commitment to this relationship. I have zero insecurity about that and I didn't always have that. But it wasn't because she wasn't giving that to me. It's because I couldn't receive it. She was given it, but I knew me and it just didn't even seem reasonable that someone would love me that well. And she has just over the years just consistently loved me. And it's just helped me to relax and begin to love myself. I give her a lot of credit and just pick an area of life. Carmen's pretty awesome. [00:45:13] Speaker A: Was it you, Lindsay, that mentioned in a speaking prep meeting a couple weeks ago for my last sermon? I thought it was you that said there's no such thing as becoming the most self sufficient Christian ever or it's not necessarily a good thing. Was that you or was that Brant? [00:45:28] Speaker C: That was me. [00:45:28] Speaker B: What do you mean? [00:45:30] Speaker C: I told my spiritual director once that I'm the most self sufficient Christian and in tongue in cheek kind of way, because I've walked in this faith for so long. I've gotten to the place where I know the song and dance. I can do it, I can go through the motions, I can show up, I can do the thing without realizing or acknowledging my need for Christ. And that's an invitation for me of growth and area. And you know, I do think I can slip back into that very easily. That's a bend I have. But that's an oxymoron of self sufficient Christian. Like that doesn't. That's not a thing. The whole premise of our faith is our need for a savior and community. Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:46:22] Speaker B: It's a lot easier to act like a Christian than to react like a Christian. That's good. [00:46:28] Speaker C: That's really good. [00:46:29] Speaker A: There's, I think that I picked up somewhere along the way. I think this is in the same line, like the greatest. Maybe it's just because our family was so busy all the time. We had our own activities and there were sports, but then in the church there was always another prayer gathering or a hospital visitation and all good things. I kind of came to the conclusion somewhere along that way that the best thing that you could do for the people that you love is do not ask anything of them as they already have plenty going on. And so the highest compliment that I can pay to you is that I am out of your way and I'm not taking anything from you. And the best thing that you could do for me is the same in return. And that's what I thought of when you said I'm the most self sufficient Christian. I'm like, oh, that sounds really holy to me, actually really sanctified. That is righteousness right there. Self sufficiency. And of course Jesus always keeps pulling us back into love that he has for us as well as requiring our loving of other people. [00:47:31] Speaker B: And I have a Carmen moment for that one. In the middle of very difficult season, we're at one of those really two times when we were ready to bail on the marriage. And she said, I don't feel like you need me. And I said, that's because I don't need you. And I've been spending my whole life making sure I didn't need anyone. And that was one of those breakthrough moments. [00:47:58] Speaker A: And this is good, right? This is what we want. You want me to not need you. Yeah. It's amazing. Yeah. [00:48:03] Speaker B: But I just didn't. I just said, I don't know what to do about this. And she moved toward me. She didn't walk away in that moment. She came toward me and it was, you know, we'll figure it out together. And. [00:48:22] Speaker A: As always, it turns out that Jesus just kind of wrecks these things. Very simple, small chapters, teachings. What? The last bit of the section of scripture that you had says that nobody asked the them any questions. After that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:37] Speaker B: After this, they went. He's pretty much kicking our butt. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:42] Speaker B: In our attempts to trap him. [00:48:45] Speaker A: If we ask him more, it might get even harder, man. Mike, thanks for coming, man. And taking the time pleasures. It's great. This is produced by Lindsay Parnell. Justin McMahon is our engineer over on the board. I'm Ben Fleming. Evan is now 40 and not here. Is he 40 now? Did it happen the official day? [00:49:04] Speaker C: I think it's coming. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Okay, well, regardless, go to behindthemessage. Com. You can check it out there. Follow along, subscribe, rate all the things. We'll see you next time.