Betraying Jesus and the Inefficiency of Worship

[00:00:01] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Evan Earwicker. And I've been gone for a week and a half or so. Good to be back, Ben. [00:00:22] Speaker A: How was it? How was vacation? [00:00:25] Speaker B: I've been telling everybody. Had a great time with the family. We had some birthdays on this trip. My son turned seven, I turned 40. The big four, zero. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Woo. How's it feel? [00:00:35] Speaker B: The same. [00:00:35] Speaker A: But a lot of discussion around 40 years old on this staff over the last few years. [00:00:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And this podcast. So we won't go there again. No, it was good. It was a good trip, but we went probably about a month too early. We were in Boston and New York and it was winter still, which is very cold. And, you know, you're in the city, so you want to stay on foot as much as possible and with young kids, and it just. It was very cold. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I mean, it could be a month early, it could be a week early. [00:01:01] Speaker B: Right. Well, that was. Yeah. The joke on the trip was, man, this place is going to be beautiful in three days. [00:01:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Everywhere we went, it felt like we were just, you know, hours away from the weather, turning nice, sticking right into the storm. But we stuck with, you know, we did all the stuff. So we did ice cream in Central park and it was like 33 degrees, wind blowing, a mist falling, and we're like, no, we're going to do Central Park. Right. And so we're chattering teeth. Soft serve. It was great. [00:01:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Having tough weather is one thing. Continuing to do summer things in bad weather. That sounds like masochism maybe or something. I think you did that to yourself. [00:01:36] Speaker B: Yeah, several times. It felt like. Yeah, I think we did this to ourselves. We could have looked at the weather report and, you know, driven somewhere warmer. [00:01:42] Speaker A: But like a Broadway show. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Yeah, we did. We took the kids to Aladdin. [00:01:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:47] Speaker B: Which. Which is great, you know, and it's newer. It's only like 15 years old. And so I felt like, you saw that, you know, the lighting and the sets, they just felt a little bit more modern than like a Lion King, which has been 25 years now. [00:02:01] Speaker A: I haven't seen Lion King. We did Aladdin, though, probably four years ago. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Did you like it? The kids loved it. Yeah. [00:02:05] Speaker A: The Genie. The guy who's playing the genie at the time, maybe it's the same guy. I think he became the centerpiece of the show. Just fantastic. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:13] Speaker A: That was my biggest Wondering is, how do you make this character work on a stage, live action. Because it's such an iconic character and not just the talent of Robin Williams within the animation to go along with it. And I thought it translated really well to the scene. [00:02:27] Speaker B: It was a good one. Yeah. Really good. The set pieces are amazing. How they just all the. How they get all those set pieces moving and changed out. And the lighting, it's very impressive. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:38] Speaker B: So Aladdin. [00:02:38] Speaker A: Lindsay, you seen Aladdin on Broadway? [00:02:41] Speaker C: No, I haven't. I saw Lion King. [00:02:43] Speaker A: You did? [00:02:43] Speaker C: I did. [00:02:43] Speaker A: I haven't seen that one. [00:02:44] Speaker C: Okay. It felt a little dated, but it was in. I think it was 20, 21. So it was right after Covid and Broadway had just come back. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:02:52] Speaker C: So. So the energy in the room was. I wept. Like, everyone was just loud and applauding. Everything got a standing ovation. The cast was crying. Like, it was a magical thing. So I loved it. [00:03:07] Speaker B: Were you, like, for the first performance back? [00:03:09] Speaker C: It was maybe the first month or so. Like, it still felt very new, and it was packed and. Yeah. [00:03:16] Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah. It's been running for 25 years. [00:03:20] Speaker B: I saw that. Yeah. 25 years. [00:03:22] Speaker A: Wow. That's amazing. [00:03:23] Speaker B: That's a long time. I mean, the staying power of that story. When did it come? At 93 or something like. [00:03:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:29] Speaker B: And they just keep making. [00:03:30] Speaker A: Right. Mufasa just came out. Keeping it. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Cranking that dollar machine, you know. [00:03:36] Speaker A: Oh, it's a little sad, though. [00:03:37] Speaker B: It is. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Toy Story 3 tied up that whole story arc so well, and then they were like, you know what? We're going to keep going. And so I. I exited. [00:03:44] Speaker B: Yeah. You refuse. [00:03:46] Speaker A: I think I know something about Duke Caboom in Toy Story 4, but I think I don't really remember any of the story. There's another thing coming out. I think I'm out. Yeah. [00:03:55] Speaker B: I don't. I don't know that I've watched. I've seen pieces of it. Like, the kids will have it on. And so I'll see Pieces of the Toy Stories, but I don't think I've watched, like, Keanu Reeves is Duke Caboom, Right? [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yes. [00:04:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is a great casting, by the way. Okay. I might come back for Keanu Reeves. This ties in a little bit. I wept at the end of Toy Story 3 in the theater. [00:04:15] Speaker B: Ye. [00:04:16] Speaker A: And I was concerned for myself, like, kind of heaving and, you know, like. And I talked about this message at the beginning of this message last week. I shared Bluey, Bluey the most. One of the more recent episodes where they tell you that they're selling the house. Dude, 25 minutes of like. And the whole episode's, of course, not sad. It's really fun and funny. But the whole time, I'm ready. It's so preemptively crying the whole time. [00:04:49] Speaker B: And this is, I mean, props to the creators, animators, actors. In Bluey. They've created, like you said in your sermon, they've created a masterpiece of storytelling. And, like, the way they draw you in emotionally to the story is phenomenal. [00:05:04] Speaker A: It is 100% art. But I use that to describe how there's intersections with people that you love. All of a sudden, you kind of look or sound like them, or you find this shared interest in a place that you wouldn't have before. And that's the story. Judas and the woman who anoints Jesus with nard. That one has created this relationship and this connection over some amount of time that has led to this choice to say my worth and your worth to me is worth every treasure that I own. While, of course, Judas makes the opposite decision. And it's interesting how Judas, being one of the 12, would come to that position and even make kind of a poor financial decision. I don't think I had realized over time that 30 pieces of silver was the cost of the lowest of the low slaves at auction at the time. It seems like Judas even could have gotten more out of it. Like, I don't know. What. What do you. What do you imagine is a tough question is going on with him at this time, where every decision, not just the betrayal, but even, like, what he's getting out of it just doesn't seem to match up with anything. Why make this decision and go in this direction is fascinating. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And it has to point to Judas. At some point, he became resentful of the thing that he was a part of. Right. And so he's still. He's still going along with it. He's the treasurer of the group, so he's participating. He's still on payroll. But there's something not clicking, you know, he's not actually in it to where 30 pieces of silver is enough, and maybe even less than that would be enough because he feels like at some point Jesus has started leading badly and doesn't deserve, you know, to keep going. Something's going on there. Right. Because you're right, 30 pieces of silver. If he's a true believer and loves Jesus, that's not enough. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Right. I found myself, maybe it's the contrarian me finding some empathy for him because Like I said, no decision seemed to be like a good one. It's not one of those stories where it goes and then he was offered a million dollars and you go, yeah, well, Judas was in a tough spot and he took the money. Like bad decision. But I get it. Right. It's not a good financial win. He betrays the people that he's been spending his life with over the last couple years. He's seen Jesus do miraculous things and then determine his worth. Is only this to you? It just doesn't make any sense. So the empathy comes from this. Seems like a person under really severe stress and maybe even someone that just sees the writing on the wall that people are going to be coming for Jesus in that group. And it's not even about the money. It's just about declaring yourself to be on the other side of the aisle in order to create some safety. He's very scared. Clearly. To me, I guess is the short version of it. And I think we all can identify. It's funny, I didn't expect to start this podcast by empathizing deeply with Judas. We make bad decisions when we're under that kind of stress and fear. And I think today we still do in our relationship with Jesus. This church thing works and this Bible thing works and this Jesus thing works to a point. But if you push me into enough of a corner, I'm going to start making any decision, good or bad. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And probably it's a case to be made. And surely Judas is making this justification in his own mind when he's deciding, yeah, I'm going to betray my rabbi. It's principle. There's principles behind this. Jesus is breaking the law in these ways and Jesus is wrong to be okay with this. And Jesus is okay with this woman who has a past and a history wasting so much in an act of worship to him. All that's wrong. I'm sure there was very righteous and self righteous justification for Judas to say, this is why this is the right way to go. And it's a warning, I think, to all of us in our religious principles, quote, unquote. We can start making decisions that cut directly against our worship of Jesus and feel like we're doing the right thing in doing that. And what a contrast. And you did a great job in your message of making that contrast of Judas response to Jesus and this woman's response to Jesus. And I think it's the one that we're all faced with whether or not we decide to try to take what we can from the relationship or we decide to pour ourselves out for Jesus. Right. Isn't that kind of the heart of what you're saying? [00:09:44] Speaker A: Yes, that's the idea. And what an interesting consideration that Judas may have had his own religious reasons. There is a scenario in Judas head where he's the hero, right. He's protecting the established order of religion with that group of people. And he's. Yeah, he's doing a thing that would be considered righteous to some. And the idea that he could be pushed over the line by somebody that is then giving everything that they have, which is our belief about this woman at Bethany who is pouring out this treasure, it's probably a family heirloom on the head of Jesus that that could be the last straw. That's enough. I am sick of these people. [00:10:24] Speaker B: I'm out. [00:10:24] Speaker A: These outsiders. We've done it now 10, 12, 15, 20 times. Jesus, I'm sick of it. And you've pushed me far. I mean, there's potential that that could be part of it. But. Yeah, then you do see on the other side, the woman who weighs the cost of Jesus and says, I don't have enough actually, but I'll give you everything that I have. What a fantastic juxtaposition. And then of course, to be someone who's considered less than to be at the. At the table. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And the point, I think that comes to me in this story is that more than our Right. Policies and procedures and strategies, Jesus wants our worship. Right. That's the whole deal. And Judas was probably. He's the strategic financial mind and he's got us all figured out. And if Jesus would just come his way a little bit, he'd see how they could be so much more effective if Jesus would just take that and put it in the treasury. And then. And all of that in the end, Jesus said, no, that's not what this is about. She's participating in an act of worship. And that. That is everything. That is everything. Because I, you know, I'm more involved in the finance side of things as far as our different roles here at the church. And I can see there is a pull to make so many things transactional that were never designed to be transactional, especially in ministry. Right. Do you feel that? I mean, I probably feel that more than you. You're very relational first, but yeah. [00:11:56] Speaker A: Do you ever, Evan, wish that sometimes you were doing a different line of work? Cause then some of these decisions would just be easier. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Right. If it could only just be about the bottom line, this would be so much simpler. Or if it could not have anything to do with the bottom line and just be, you know, people all the time. And it feels like church has to be both, which is hard. [00:12:18] Speaker A: And sometimes I think about when I was starting in ministry and wanted to, quote, unquote, do well. And of course, you think about attendance first and how many people you have gathered so that when you talk to your pastor, friends, or whatever, you can gauge your level. One of the worst days of my ministry life was coming to the conclusion that that cannot be the centerpiece of healthy and successful ministry. Let me tell you, life was a million times easier when it was like, we were successful because we had 10% more people, and then we were unsuccessful because we had 15 less. That was nice in retrospect, like, the ease of that. And, yeah. How many conversations we have while trying to steward resources and do a good job with what we're given is so important. And it leads you sometimes down these roads. It's like, well, we got to have more. We got to do more. We need to have this. And then you veer over the other side of, like, Discipleship is not measured purely by some kind of financial involvement or church attendance and butts in seats like, this, isn't it? And it will mess with you, man. This job will mess with you in those ways, specifically. Some days it does seem easier to just be like, I wish we had a bottom line and I got fired if we didn't reach it, and I got promoted if we did. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And the mark of a successful life is how closely we stayed to Jesus and how honestly we worshiped. Not the size of church we built or, you know, the amount of donations that came in. And all the things that are easily countable in the end don't matter, I guess, is what we're finding in the story of the Gospels. And so to give your life to that takes a lot of trust because the metrics can be going in the wrong direction, and yet your heart is close to Jesus and he's pleased with that. Man. I wish it always lined up like you're saying, you know, I wish it always equaled the other. You know, the heart equals the metric. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I had dinner with somebody from our church recently that was asking, and really, it was a great conversation, but just asked, what's your hope? I think was the phrasing for Westside Church in the coming years with your and Evans leadership. And I was like, my biggest hope is that we are honest in everything that we do. And he kind of looked at me and I was like, that's my favorite answer. And it's a terrible one. If you're sitting across from me, how do you handle that response? But I think you're right. The honesty of our worship and understanding who gets to approach Jesus. And what I'm learning as we go through Mark is how many times this happens, that people approach Jesus and there's a reaction to that approach, whether it's from the disciples or religious leaders or both. That should teach us something number one about us. If the disciples, over the course of this process can. Time after time, the leper shows up and then Zacchaeus shows up and then this woman, and it's, you know, the woman at the well through this whole. And they're like, what are you doing with her? The children are here. Why are the children here? And they do it over and over and over again. Of course, it gives me a little bit of relief to know, oh, my reactions and my slow learning maybe is part of the gig. And at the same time, it's frustrating that we just don't seem to get this, because still, culture war, conversations or whatever, this happens all the time. They can't approach Jesus. And of course Jesus would say, yes, they can. Let them come to me. [00:15:47] Speaker B: Yeah. His priorities are never the natural ones that lead to success and fame and wealth and all the things that are easy to measure as success. He's always about taking a moment and blessing the children and all the things that don't matter. Jesus. And you're sitting here and you're watching this costly perfume soak into the ground. How dare you, Jesus. And he's just flying in the face of everybody's notions about what matters. And it's that upside down thing that I think is the walking, talking on the streets illustration of the kingdom he came to announce. It's like, when the kingdom gets here, and by the way, it's already here when it gets here, you're going to find that everything you thought was up is down and vice versa. It's all going to be this upside down thing. And for those that can understand it, you're going to get it all. And oftentimes that's why he says you got to become like little children, I think, because they're just like, oh, yeah, great. Down is up, up is down. The last will be first. First will be like, great, cool. Jesus. And all the Judases and all the religious leaders and all are saying, this is not how it works. And I think that's the Thing we got to watch for in our own hearts is, which way are we going? [00:17:09] Speaker A: Yeah, because the disciples are doing that watching thing. Judas is watching the finances and saying, we're throwing away this costly treasure. Jesus is saying, eat my flesh and drink my blood. And the crowds are walking away. And Peter's going, whoa, hey, we were the thing. And you ruined it. You've got PR staff walking with Jesus. You've got accountants walking with Jesus. And all of them at different times are screaming about how you're making the wrong move. And of course, Jesus teaches us something better. And it's amazing to me that I wish we just had more of the story. This woman at Bethany gets it. She swoops into the Marx narrative and gets it and shows us this perfect example and understanding. It's a prophetic act. It's an act of worship and beauty that surpasses what the disciples are understanding at the moment. And she just gets it. I want to know how she was spiritually formed through that process. What was that? Because she so clearly understood it. [00:18:08] Speaker B: And maybe it is in there. I mean, is it in Mark, or is it one of the other gospels? It says she's been forgiven much. Yes, I love that. That is the identity that we're given. Not what she had done that she needed to be forgiven by. Not the identity that I'm sure she was labeled with, but that she'd been forgiven much. What a beautiful identity to walk in. And it's from this, like, I've received such a wonderful gift undeserved, that worship flows. And I think if we never find ourselves receiving the forgiveness of Christ, I think worship's gonna come real hard. I think it's gonna be really hard to worship because it'll never make sense until we've experienced, like, the divine work of grace. I think that's where worship flows out of. Otherwise, what is it? Is it performative? Maybe? Is it obligatory? Well, God's all powerful. I better worship him. But when you've been forgiven, when you've experienced the divine grace resting on you in a way that you don't deserve, what flows out of that is this. [00:19:19] Speaker A: And what that is is a quote, unquote, irresponsible, inefficient act of beauty. And this is one of the main points I was trying to make in the message. And I felt like it fell short. But the fact that it's just pure, sheer exhibition of something beautiful in that moment, it doesn't make financial sense, and it doesn't even make religious sense when it compares to the customs of the time. The only quote, unquote sense it makes is that it's just a wonderful, beautiful thing to do. She is an artist in this moment that is making something, not because she can get something on the other end of it, but because the scenario, the situation, demands beauty. And in that way, it reflects the act of Jesus on the cross maybe more than a lot of other prophetic things in the Gospel narrative. Because. And I said this in one of the services, but, like, I don't know, like, spitballing it here. I'm just. I'm always curious if God could have done this whole saving humanity thing in a different way. Did somebody have to die? Did it have to look like sacrifice and pain? And there's a lot of theologians out there that say it required not just a. Like an act that threw a glitch into the system of sin. It required something so outrageously beautiful, the greatest form of art and sacrifice for another. And that's what this is. It's just a pure, beautiful sacrifice that we can't ever fully understand what the return on that investment would be. [00:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And the willingness of Jesus to absorb violence at its worst as an act of beauty, I mean, wow. You start to see these opposing forces, and oftentimes I think we. We frame this as good and evil, which obviously is accurate. But I love it when we kind of maybe shift that lens a little bit and talk about beauty versus violence. And now Jesus comes into this violent world where, you know, the most aggressive sword is going to win the day. And instead he, you know, on the cross, he absorbs all this violence in his own death as an expression of the beauty of redemption and the kingdom to come. And I love something in. That speaks, I think, to our souls about our need for the beauty of what God brings. And the wasting of it, I think, is something that we get here in the Pacific Northwest. You know, how many sunrises and sunsets and beautiful moments are never seen by anybody? They're just thrown away. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Right? [00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah. But there's beauty everywhere. Right. Whether somebody sees it or not. And compare that to the heart of Judas, which is like, well, if nobody's benefited from this, it's a waste and we should stop it. And the heart of the Creator and the heart of Jesus is we waste beauty and throw it out there. Because that is what this is all about, is beauty in the face of violence and death and sin and the grave. And I don't know. I'm just. I'm spitballing here, but I Think it's. [00:22:33] Speaker A: The artists place in the world, right? Like, maybe this is why we do what we do. I'm fascinated. But we've got our artist in the house today. Gwen is our engineer who does not have a microphone and so she won't be able to respond to this for the podcast. But Lindsey's the other closest thing is she does have a microphone. Is this the space that art is supposed to exist in? You know, like, it's. When I do think of this, creating something for the sake of creating something, I do think of musicians and painters and people that draw, people that can sit for hours at a table and sketch. And if you ask them why, they probably would have a terrible answer for why they do that. Right? Is this the artist's place, Lindsay, in the world? [00:23:17] Speaker C: Yes, because I think it feels wrong when it's done for any other reason. There's something in me that feels yucky if I'm like, I'm writing the song to be heard by a lot of people and to make a lot of money. And I find also that when that is my motivation, the craft itself suffers. I don't write as well, I don't play as well. I'm not proud of the end product. And so there's something to be said for. I think it's how we were made is maybe beauty for beauty's sake, art for art sake. I also, I read something recently that said, like, artists kind of figure things out first and then their art is almost like a prophetic declaration to everybody else about what's kind of going on. You think about artists like Bob Dylan or. That's the only one I can think of because I just watched that movie recently. But there's a lot of different artists who have their finger on the pulse of something a little bit before everyone else. And that art, their art kind of gives people a heads up or a behind the scenes look at culture or humanity or like an overall feeling that we all have in common from what's going on in the world right now or in our community or wherever it might be. [00:24:42] Speaker B: Well, all this has been true, but AI is here now. So sorry to say it's no longer needed. Thank you, artists. You've done a good. AI will take it from here. [00:24:53] Speaker C: You're not wrong. [00:24:53] Speaker A: AI paints for painting's sake. [00:24:57] Speaker C: I literally found a playlist the other day. I was researching Easter music for our Easter services. I'm pretty sure it was an entire AI Easter worship song playlist situation with accompanying video. It was one of the creepiest Things I've ever seen. But also I was like, these songs are kind of good. [00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:25:18] Speaker C: Oh, gosh. We're not doing any of them on Easter Sunday. Don't worry. But it was crazy. [00:25:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I think we are imitators of Christ in creativity. Right? It is worship. And I think it's so sad if. Yeah. If we don't have those elements of beauty in our worship. I think of movements throughout centuries where people, in reaction, usually to excess in. In churches or religious settings, try to go as austere and bland as possible, as though that is the way to please God. Because there's no distractions and maybe there's a place for that somewhere. But to remove beauty and expression from worship, I think is really sad because we're created in the image of God to create. Right? [00:26:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's hard to deny when you're in that environment, those moments. And you and I have been in places with people that have been leading things that we know now their movement has come under fire or they've gotten in trouble for something. And it turns out that the leadership, the Healthy organization, wasn't good after all. But I remember those rooms with those vocals beneath those guitars and drums, and I go, that was real, though. And it was wonderful and beautiful. And the art, purely in the art, for the art's sake, is something. You can't deny my soul in that space, you know, I love that our art even transcends often our souls and our own hearts. It goes beyond and it does speak those things. That is a move of the Holy Spirit. Even in spite of who we are on the day to day or who we are as a leader, that art goes beyond because of course it's meant. It's meant for worship. And our perfection is not required in order to make those beautiful things. So, yeah, I've gone through that stage of, like, this should be really bland and stupid and silly and just straightforward. Okay. Because we're gonna leave it. We don't wanna mess up the message of Jesus. And of course, like, the voices and the colors and the things, these all matter to our souls, right? [00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And those expressions that don't have immediate pay. You know, we're not. We're not trying to lion king live action movie this, right? Like, the first one was perfect. So we're gonna make more money by redoing it. And we'll get Elton John back and it's not as good. This is a callback, by the way, to our first conversation. But you can tell the Difference. Right. When you watch that movie, I think this is just a cash grab. The original was such heartfelt stuff. And I think in Church world, we can. We can do the same thing where it's like, oh, remember in 2002, that song? Let's recreate that. Because I think we can get a really big crowd. And sometimes we just have to have the humility to say it. We don't know what's next, but we want to show up with everything we have to bring, whether that's our teaching or our songs or our music. But we're not going to try to always just recreate because it worked last time. So we want to have success again. I think that is maybe the pitfall or the trap of creativity in churches is we want to commodity. Make a commodity. Commodify. Thank you. Commodify. What worked before to kind of like, let's just up this and be more successful. And what got us to the first part that was so great and beautiful and wonderful wasn't that idea. It was something purer and simpler. And so, I don't know, I just feel like we have to look forward with a lot of humility. Yeah. [00:28:54] Speaker A: And it's prophetic. You don't want to rob yourself of the prophetic movement of Worshiper of Art. And Bob Dylan's such a great example. I remember when American Idol was becoming a thing and you had the first five, six, seven seasons enough. Enough data to feel like most of the competitors on the show, you were going, they're looking for the same voice. They're, like, looking for the same sound almost. It seems like there's a certain thing that gets you first place. How well would Bob Dylan do on American Idol? Horrifically. Right. He would have been weird and just the whole thing would have felt funny. It would have been a funny experience. His voice doesn't have that kind of pop thing. And Bob Dylan is an artist, especially early on, that made people go, huh, maybe a little bit like the disciples in that room watching this, going, this is not right. I guess, because it's so out there, audacious. And of course, you spend enough time with Bob Dylan and you get the poetry, you get all the other pieces that are essentially prophetic for that generation. Right. We don't want to rob ourselves of that. Walking into some unfamiliar places for the sake of God, Speaking a fresh and new word in the middle of that. [00:30:06] Speaker B: And I'm in a moment speaking of that kind of new thing where I'm really excited to find out what God does With kind of the next generation of people that aren't just doing what we tell them to, you know, But I want to be in more rooms where I receive from the 17 year old who is hearing from Jesus and moving prophetically into something that I've never seen before, never heard before, or the worship that is not going to happen. Because millennials, you know, wrote the next thing that used to be Hillsong and now it's the Next thing and Maverick City plus and all that's great and wonderful and that's our generation. But the ones that are coming up now that are 13 and 14, what will come out of that generation that will say, whoa, we weren't even thinking that way and yet what a beautiful expression of worship poured out. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a little alarming to think that we're in those seats now, actually. But you just turned 40, so good job. Yes. That's our job now. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:16] Speaker A: Not just to create a prophetic move. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:18] Speaker A: But to shepherd. It, I think is a whole different thing that I don't know that I'm prepared for yet. And my mind should probably be more on that. How do you shepherd the next move and the next thing so that God will speak? Not so that God will speak, so that we will make it clear that God is speaking to the next generation. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't know, is there a strong dividing line in your life where you are the one who's being developed into now you're the one developing others, or is it fluid? Does it happen a little bit at a time? I don't know. But when that happens, I think that's something that if you miss it, it's really bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you miss your moment to start looking for, who am I pouring into and raising up, or not even raising up, but like being there to support as they are thriving. If you miss that and you're like, no, it's all about me. And yeah, what a sad thing. And not to point anybody out. I mean, I think it's an easy mistake to make when you don't catch it. Like, oh, there's younger people that need to see themselves in some of these roles that maybe we're too closely guarding. [00:32:34] Speaker A: But it's that parenting age, Right. Where you guys ever encounter when you're parenting your 10 year old, this dynamic of, I'm still not, I don't have any of this figured out yet. Like, I'm supposed to like, pass something on to you. Like, I'm very much working on this right now. So sometimes it's not even about the selfish move of, like, no, it's my time. Finally. This is my window. I'm a senior pastor. I'm waiting for this. That's not what it's about. It's more like, no, I need you to back off for a second just so I can take a couple of years to figure this out for myself, and then maybe I can have something to offer and bring to the table. It actually creates insecurity in me in a different way than I imagined the other leaders in front of us that were, like, blocking our opportunity or whatever. And I'm sure that happens. But for me, it's more like, hey, slow down. I can't. I'm not ready for this. Because I'm feeling like I haven't figured out the thing that you want me to lead you in. [00:33:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That. That's the humility I think you learn as a parent. Right. Of like, I don't know what I'm doing. And you figure it out as you go. But now I feel like my kids are at an age now where I'm like, oh, no. Now their skill sets are surpassing mine in certain different areas where I can't do that as well as clara can at 12 years old. Yikes. Because that's not been the case up until now where it's like, of course I'm better at everything than my three year old is. And then at some point, they're way better at most things. And you're like, oh, man, I am terrible at life. Right? And so there's all these, like, shifts that happen, and it's. It's humbling. [00:34:06] Speaker A: I had a stark version of that when Joel started playing hockey. And all of a sudden he's five and he learns to skate. And I go, my son does something that I literally cannot do. I cannot skate. And he is five and he is whooping me out on the ice, you know? Yeah, that's it. But, like, expanded out over all of these different things where I'm going, how. How have I been around this long and done this much and I still have zero capability or ability? And this and this. And then you're up to the decision of, well, do I jump into the pool and try to embarrassingly learn to swim in front of all these people, you know, or learn to skate, or do I just kind of sink back in the chair and say, bag it. You know? [00:34:48] Speaker B: And everyone else, you know, they have those. Those Red Walkers on the ice. There's Ben Fleming out learning how to skate, you know, how to skate. [00:35:00] Speaker A: I can stay on them. Yeah, I can't stop. [00:35:03] Speaker B: Really? [00:35:04] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, like, well, wall, you know, I just never get going too fast. [00:35:08] Speaker B: The wall is good for stopping. [00:35:09] Speaker A: I could stop. I could be going fast on skates. I could do that. I could not stop. I can't turn. I can't skate backwards. I can't do all these things again. My 10 year old is working me at all. [00:35:18] Speaker B: Did you grow up skating? [00:35:20] Speaker C: No, I grew up in New Mexico. It's the desert fair. Snow sports, ice sports, anything? No. And in fact, I shamelessly used that little red walker. Maybe two years ago when we went ice skating in Sun River. I was like, oh, I'd rather use this than fall. [00:35:37] Speaker A: So just no skiing or anything. [00:35:40] Speaker C: No shame. I've skied three times in my life. [00:35:44] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:45] Speaker C: One was terrifying enough to make me never want to do it again. And the last time I was cross country skiing. I actually quite enjoyed that. Oh yeah, that was fun. I only ski once. [00:35:54] Speaker A: You've got snowshoeing vibes. It feels a lot safer. Is reasonable. [00:35:58] Speaker C: Yeah, hopefully. [00:35:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I guess it depends, right? Depends on what the country is that you're going across. But you're probably a good skater. You could skier, right? [00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I ski. We grew up skiing and skating here in Bend, you know, so mountain town. And we also we had what is the midtown concert venue downtown that was the roller rink in town. And so we do like field trips. And this is like even before rollerblades were even popular. Right. In like 1990. And so it'd be the four wheel, you know, old school roller skates and that old nasty building. It's still kind of nasty. I don't know how much they cleaned it up, but anyway. Yeah. [00:36:42] Speaker A: So the closest I got to asking a girl out was at roller rinks. [00:36:45] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:36:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I felt like we were all 1950 again. Yeah, we were all kind of set free enough to where I could like talk to a girl without wondering if someone was looking over my shoulder and, you know, being unpure or something like that. [00:36:59] Speaker B: And then it's cosmic bowling. But what do they call it in the roller rink when the disco ball goes on and then you gotta go in reverse or whatever? I don't know, I think there's all these things that I've long forgotten. [00:37:10] Speaker A: Couple skates. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Couple skate. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, the reverse. There was racing. Sometimes they would do a couple of races during a evening skate. Oh, that was fun. What an ecosystem, that roller rink, baby. Good times. [00:37:24] Speaker B: Now kids just are on social media. So don't need that anymore. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Yes. It is the funniest thing to be a parent now after having all those experiences. [00:37:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And I do feel, I feel for future generations. I don't know that obviously parenting, the fundamentals have probably always been the same, but it does feel like there's these challenges looking forward that are crazy with things like social media. I don't just want to come on here and rant against technology, but such hard dynamics for kids these days. And as we go forward, just so much empathy for all the parents out there trying to figure this out. It's hard. It's hard to know how to navigate all these new challenges culturally and technologically and everything. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:21] Speaker B: It's a wild west of parenting right now. [00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah. One thing that social media felt like it had going for it in the early stages was this level of getting to know someone and this kind of authenticity that came along with it, which I think is something that we benefit from in the human interaction. Everything feels so curated now. Feels like everyone's got their own little PR thing going on. To which I'm going. This is not why I'm on here anyway. I don't care about what you're selling, whether it's you or a product. This is not what I'm interested in. And that hopefully is where the church can be a really valuable piece going forward. And I think we've even seen some statistics, some national data about people returning to church or at least things stabilizing when it looked like it was in a massive free fall. I wonder how much of it is attributed to this real understanding in our souls that we need this face to face interaction. If we just kind of sense that, you know. [00:39:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And not too far off from some of the themes I'll be hitting on Sunday. We're heading up to the Last Supper. So this message is called Jesus is Setting the Table and how discipleship always draws us towards the table. It always draws us towards these moments where all the pretense falls away. And this is how Jesus walked with the disciples once. The flashy miracles and the well attended sermons, all that is done in the ministry of Jesus. They find themselves in a room around a table, sharing heart to heart before he goes to the cross. And there is such a model in that for our discipleship. If our discipleship is looking always towards the next big event, the next big conference, the next flashy thing that God might do, we'll miss out on that. Jesus is actually drawing us as his followers to the table. And that's always the destination, I think. Right. [00:40:20] Speaker A: We're to the Last Supper already, Ev. [00:40:22] Speaker B: I know. Wow. This is week 14. 15. 14. [00:40:27] Speaker A: My next one is 15. That's Peter denies Jesus. And then we're into Easter, Good Friday. [00:40:33] Speaker B: Good Friday and Easter. [00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah, Good Friday, which we get so excited about here. [00:40:37] Speaker B: Which is. [00:40:38] Speaker A: Which is really ironic. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But yeah, we're. [00:40:42] Speaker A: We're basically here. It does feel like this. The story swings up and accelerates at such an incredible rate in Mark, starting with last week with the anointing at Beth Bethany. It's just. Everything's been fast paced, but even more so this last little bit. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Yeah. We also do Stations of the Cross on Easter week, Passion Week starting Wednesday. I think we're gonna have Stations of the Cross in the afternoon evenings leading up to Good Friday. And this is something we've been doing for three or four years. Scott, the painter Scott Erickson out of Vancouver, Washington, I believe, did some great artwork several years ago that we use as. I don't know if we do all 12 stations. I think we do nine stations, but kind of a walk through, lighted exhibit, if you will, stations across. And I think people find that very meaningful. And I know a lot of liturgical denominations have been doing this for forever, but something that we introduced or brought back a few years ago and super. [00:41:44] Speaker A: Meaningful, very reflective, slow paced. The art does the preaching, which again, back to our conversation about art. Sometimes that's the best way to hear the gospel is in this form. So Wednesday, the Wednesday of Holy Week at noon, right? Yeah, the 16th at noon. That'll open up and you can go through. Come through anytime in that block and go as slow as you want. It's pretty nice. It gets guided even. [00:42:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:13] Speaker A: We hit the button and then it plays guide that takes you through on the tour. It's pretty great. [00:42:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And then, of course, Easter. And I. I'm always reminded, you know, I think our Christmas Eve services tend to be our most well attended services of the year or whatever. But, Lindsay, you do a good job of reminding us that Easter is actually the thing. [00:42:34] Speaker C: Easter is the thing. [00:42:35] Speaker B: We like the nostalgia of Christmas. And of course, we're marking the coming and the Incarnation. Very important. But all of that, even Christmas itself, is pointing to this day, to Easter, right? [00:42:45] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. It's our Super Bowl. The Christian Super Bowl. [00:42:49] Speaker B: Let's not use the phrase Christian Super Bowl. [00:42:55] Speaker A: What's the halftime show at the Christian super bowl this year? [00:42:58] Speaker B: We do have to talk anytime we talk about Easter, but we have to talk about the Year that we introduced beach balls into the end of the service. [00:43:06] Speaker A: Can you guys give me the long form version of this? I think this is two years before I got here. And it lives in infamy. The beach balls, people getting hit in the face. [00:43:16] Speaker C: Yeah. They were thrown out to the crowd as the band played. Celebrate good times, Come on. Yeah. In both the student center and the worship center. So the experience was identical. And, yeah, we were. We were celebrating. [00:43:33] Speaker B: And were you on the stage? [00:43:36] Speaker C: I was in the student center going, beach balls. [00:43:38] Speaker B: I think in the main stage, the infamous story is that right in, like, the third row, this sweet elderly woman just got a beach ball right into the face. Right in the face. Easter Sunday, you know, could you imagine? You bring your grandma to church with you, and she gets just hit so hard in the face with a giant beach ball. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Why were they getting hit so hard? [00:44:02] Speaker B: You know, I wasn't poor. Crowd control. I don't know. [00:44:05] Speaker C: Crowd control over passionate youths. I don't know. [00:44:11] Speaker A: So it's easy to look back and cringe at it Now. Was there any. Was. Were you getting off of the stage of being like. That was kind of fun and great at the time? No, No. [00:44:20] Speaker B: I think everyone was cringing all the way through. [00:44:22] Speaker C: I don't think anyone liked it. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Okay, that's good news, actually. [00:44:24] Speaker C: I don't know whose idea it was. [00:44:26] Speaker B: But had to be Casey. [00:44:27] Speaker A: It was crazy. [00:44:28] Speaker C: Everyone who's actually doing it hated it so much. [00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, going back to the creativity conversation, God bless all the creative arts teams out there in the world that are planning the most creative, crazy Easter. You know, I think more power to you. But stay away from beach balls. [00:44:47] Speaker C: Maybe throwing objects off the stage would. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Probably be T shirt cannons. Beach balls. What else? [00:44:52] Speaker C: Beef jerky. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Beef. Yeah, we've done that. [00:44:54] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm looking at you. [00:44:56] Speaker B: That might have been my idea. [00:44:57] Speaker A: Was that your idea? Father's Day. [00:44:59] Speaker B: Yeah, Father's Day. [00:45:00] Speaker A: I threw some jerky, but it was not my idea. [00:45:02] Speaker B: We did. Yeah, it was. We did. Like, it was like beer pong on stage. [00:45:08] Speaker A: Oh, I missed that one again. Another one. That sounds great. [00:45:13] Speaker B: I don't know. That sounds terrible. [00:45:15] Speaker C: I think it was my idea where elders were like, we believe in you guys. Here's the prophetic move. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Great. [00:45:21] Speaker A: We're just speaking against everything we did in the first 25 minutes of this podcast. [00:45:26] Speaker B: Yikes. Yeah. Let's go back to throwing Casey Parnell under the bus. [00:45:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Leaving me out of it. [00:45:32] Speaker B: Okay. [00:45:32] Speaker A: Blame him for whatever we do. [00:45:33] Speaker B: All my ideas have been great. [00:45:36] Speaker A: Oh, well, you're just preaching that Sunday, so. [00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah, no pressure, man. Yeah. Yeah. [00:45:41] Speaker A: I guess I would be in the overflow. I'd be teaching your message. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah, right. We do that. I always forget which. We do. Full messages, one of us in each room. Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is great. It's gonna be great. Four services. We're doing our normal service times for those listening in town. Normal service time. Then we're adding service at 12:30. [00:46:02] Speaker A: How about bubbles? Bubbles. [00:46:04] Speaker C: I love a good bubble machine. Yeah, yeah. And a haze machine. Those are my two faves. [00:46:09] Speaker A: The bubbles. Oh, bubbles in the haze. [00:46:11] Speaker C: No. Well, I've never tried that one. [00:46:13] Speaker A: Let's try it. Gwen, your job. [00:46:18] Speaker B: Last year, I tried to get us to have the cotton candy flavored goldfish or. No, what flavor was it? [00:46:26] Speaker C: I don't remember. [00:46:27] Speaker A: But we had a long conversation. [00:46:30] Speaker B: They were Easter colored and they were goldfish. I thought it would tie beautifully into the John passage about Jesus having breakfast on the beach and it would be very memorable. Got shut down. [00:46:40] Speaker A: Well, because the conversation is that Christmas has candles. [00:46:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Right. [00:46:45] Speaker A: Easter. [00:46:45] Speaker B: And it's meaningful. [00:46:46] Speaker A: It would be great if Easter had something like that. [00:46:47] Speaker B: And we don't do Communion on Easter because it's Easter Sunday. And so. Yeah, goldfish, but not happening. I get it. I get it. It's fine. Whatever. [00:46:57] Speaker A: I think we should resurrect this idea, you know? [00:47:04] Speaker B: All right. Special thanks to Gwen Gossett sitting in on the switching today. Lindsey Parnell produced, and we're your hosts, Ben and Evan. Thanks, Sam Nimbro for editing today. And we'll be back next week. Two more left in Lent as we head towards Easter. Behind the message. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Gwen's never going to want to do this job again. [00:47:25] Speaker B: No. Or she'll want a mic. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. We should keep her in this. Let's keep talking about her. And she can't reply. [00:47:30] Speaker B: Good.