Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: And I'm Evan Earwicker. Hi, Ben.
[00:00:21] Speaker A: You and your Starbucks Mike.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: I know. I had to put it down. You might have heard the jangling, the.
[00:00:27] Speaker A: Maracas with the ice cubes.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: There it is.
[00:00:31] Speaker A: It's such good timing. Did you mean for them to slide all the way down or was that one of those, like, drink avalanches?
[00:00:38] Speaker B: Drink avalanche, yeah. And the timing as I was passing the mic.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Right.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Unfortunate. People don't care about this. We should talk about something in the introduction.
[00:00:50] Speaker A: It's almost Christmas, guys. How do you feel about that?
[00:00:52] Speaker C: Stop that.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Right around the corner.
Yep, it's right there. Lindsey, no pressure to you especially.
[00:00:58] Speaker C: I do have an advent book on my desk as we speak, so I know it's coming.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: There's nothing I love more than people giving me and Evan so many compliments over Christmas Eve services to which we, you know, maybe we're like, 15th on the importance list that night with regard.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: To how much work we do.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: You do more than I do because you're always, like, in lifts and fixing lights and stuff like that.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah. You barely show up. I barely show up.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: I'm there the whole time. But the creative arts crew and, like, you guys carry a lot of.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: I mean, and shout out, like, first impressions teams.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: I mean, hundreds of volunteers. Yeah. Very impressive.
[00:01:37] Speaker A: Do we serve coffee on that night?
[00:01:38] Speaker B: I don't know, man.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: If we serve coffee, that's a lot of coffee.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: This is proving our point. We had no idea what we do out in the atrium on Christmas Eve. Oh, my gosh. That's a lot.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: It's coming up, though. It's coming.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: It is. It is.
Lindsay, we have a new staff member on the team this week.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's great.
[00:01:57] Speaker C: We do. It's great.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Young.
[00:01:59] Speaker C: He is our associate worship director, so he's going to be leading, helping me with a lot of our different worship teams in different departments. Our youth worship.
Yeah. It's going to be super great to have him. It already is. It already is. So wonderful. So I'm very excited to have him.
[00:02:18] Speaker B: That's great.
[00:02:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: And his wife, Emmy, they're both on the team. Emmy is a great bass player. She was just rocking out up there.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: I know she does great grooving.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: A few walk downs that I felt like were kind of not extra, but, you know, know, they filled it out nice.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:33] Speaker A: She knew what she was doing.
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Got A bass player out of. Out of this hire. That's great.
[00:02:37] Speaker C: That's horrible.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: That's amazing. Got a bass player out of this hire.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Ben, you're moving into your house very, very soon.
[00:02:44] Speaker C: You are?
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Well, I think I sleep in there tomorrow night. I think I sleep in my house.
[00:02:48] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.
[00:02:50] Speaker A: Painters are painting upstairs right now. Which is the main floor. It's a split level. The main floor is the upstairs.
And I. I'm tempted to drag my bed in there tonight because all I have to deal with is with like, the fumes. And I think I'm willing to take that on. So maybe I'll sleep in there tonight just in a heavily paint smelling room, but. Oh, you guys, did you make it.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: A full year out of your house?
[00:03:13] Speaker A: Almost Exactly.
[00:03:14] Speaker B: Almost exactly.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: October 3rd would have been a full year. So what's today? Today's like the 21st or something?
[00:03:20] Speaker B: 2022?
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Almost, man. Yeah. Really intense. I would not recommend it to anyone. And we probably should have sold our house and bought another one that had a place for my parents, but we did not do that.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Live and learn. And now you're there forever.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Now. Now we're there forever. That is the other side. I can't imagine ever going anywhere else.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: After all of that.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: That would. Oh, my gosh. It was an experience. So congrats to anybody else that has lived on a trailer for a year while they're redoing large swaths of.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: But to the credit of your property, you have a great yard. You have a good chunk of land there. It's not like you could have just, you know, grabbed any other place in town and it would have been as nice, for sure.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Half acre and bend. It's a walk to school in the morning and it'll be a walk for the kids to junior high because Skyview and Lava Ridge are connected, basically.
And so we'll get a few more years of that as well. Yeah. Everything about the location, all the little league games are right there. Like we do. All the. I'm coaching flag football. Those practices are right there. It's pretty. It's a sweet spot.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Are you. Are you happy to have people stop asking you about how your house is going?
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah. They look at me with sad eyes, and I didn't bring it up for a long time, and I think that was smart. People started asking me a little bit less, but then I brought it up a couple weeks ago, and now the fervor is back, so I got to get in the house, confirm to everybody that I'M okay. And then we can all move on with our stinking lives, man.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: And I know very, very kind, generous people in the church. I've witnessed it a few times happen, offering you their houses when they're traveling and things.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: So many people.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: That had to be a lot of conversations of just like, thank you for the offer of your house, but we're going to stay put.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. That actually proved the point of keeping the house is because there were a lot of people that offered us places that I was like, ugh. But we're still. I want to walk to school. It makes it so much easier. And we. Nobody wanted my three dogs in their house.
So that would stem some of the conversations. Oh, cool. I've got a 110 pound Germatur ever golden retriever. How do you feel about. Well, okay, well, maybe just you and your kids.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Could you board all the dogs while you stay at our house?
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah, let's add another expense to the whole thing. People are very kind, though, I will say. And people.
That's one of the cool things about Bend is a lot of people are out of town for a month at a time. They're going on vacation or they work out of. So there was a lot of that. Like, you can have my house while we're gone for a month.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Did you ever take anyone up on it?
[00:05:47] Speaker A: No, never took anyone up. Not a one. Stayed in Sun River, Lapine, my in laws a couple times, but that was about it.
Should have taken more people up. So many mistakes were made, you guys. I didn't do a great job with all this.
Failed at every corner.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: This wasn't the point of bringing it up.
What are your biggest regrets over the course of this past year? Oh, my gosh.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: So many regrets, you guys.
Yes. I'm starting to feel the lift, though, like, and with anything. It's not just this house thing. We felt it maybe different stages of life or work or whatever. And we're hitting that uphill thing where actually you're starting to see a lot of results and there's a lot of positives. You finally feel like you're winning every once in a while instead of just a constant loss.
So overall, the morale has been up over the last few weeks, which is a relief because it was just so dark and cold for so long.
But I laugh to disconnect from my real feelings.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: That's what I do.
Have you ever listened to someone just gently sob on a podcast?
The numbers really drop off when you cry. Yeah, maybe it might go up, actually. Have you Ever.
So just, what, three months ago, you, like, belly laughed in a sermon. Have you ever. And couldn't control it, and it was amazing.
Have you ever gone the other way and, like, broken down, like. I know. Getting emotional and we talked about this a couple weeks ago. Getting emotional during a message, but, like, where you've actually had to stop and, like, you couldn't continue, just, like, in a message.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, that, like, because what. What it is for me when I get to that point, there's like a heaving that comes to it. So that laugh, when I laughed, it. I stopped and then I just exploded. Right. The crying version is like, you do the sobbing thing, and then it gets quiet, and then you go in for the he. For more than, you know, kind of. That's when you know that I've gone down that road. I don't think I've done it during a message. I've done in life recently, but not in a message recently.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Like, in the last 20 minutes. Is that where you went after our last meeting?
[00:08:01] Speaker A: Nah, I was eating cheese sticks. You know, that was a no. Have you.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: No, not in a message. Yeah. Poor in life.
No, we're not making this about my crying again.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Did we do this in the podcast last time? We did.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: We keep talking about crying.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: I can't imagine either of you heaving while crying. Lindsay, is that in your.
[00:08:23] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Okay, good.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: Good.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: I'm extremely emotional, full stop.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: You're extremely emotional?
[00:08:30] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: No, you're not.
[00:08:31] Speaker C: I cry. I probably cry every day.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Every day?
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Really?
[00:08:36] Speaker C: Every day?
[00:08:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:37] Speaker C: It could be I'm moved by something I see, or something sad happens, or I get so angry I cry, or I get so frustrated I cry. I get so happy I cry. It's just.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: It's right there all the time. Are you wanting to cry right now?
[00:08:50] Speaker C: If you guys keep questioning me like this. Just kidding.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: What kind of cry would that be?
That sounds healthy.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: I don't know. I can't help it.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: So it better be healthy.
[00:09:01] Speaker C: Healthy or not healthy, it just is what it is.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: Well, we know whatever's going on with my emotions is not okay. And here's the thing.
You left a book on my desk, and it's the Emotionally healthy. Which one? Leader or emotionally healthy?
[00:09:16] Speaker C: No.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Spirituality. Yeah, which. I know why you brought it. But then I was like, wait, why did she give this to me? And then I read the tagline. It's Pete Scazzero's book. And it's impossible to be spiritually healthy if you're emotionally Unhealthy.
And I just sat with that for a little bit.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Did you just sat with his emotions at his desk?
[00:09:37] Speaker B: What is. What is Lindsay saying passive aggressively talking.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: To you about it?
[00:09:42] Speaker B: That is the sixth time that book has been left on my desk by somebody on the staff.
[00:09:45] Speaker C: For the record, it was not for Evan. Just so everyone knows that I'm not.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Being passive aggressive, but it's still sitting there taunting me.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: It was for Alyssa. That's who the book was for.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah, but it actually brings up a good point.
Emotional health and leaders.
Huge.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: As a book or.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: No, as a concept thing, you know?
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah, the book was. The book itself was big for me. I think I was just starting to begin to understand the importance of emotional health and leadership. But then actually going through the book, it put a lot of legs to it. Yeah. I mean, I would recommend that across the board. It seems like even outside of Christian circles. Obviously it's a Christian centered book, but the importance that it places on and then the methods that it gives you for emotional health, pretty. It's a standout man. Of all the books that I've read over the last 10 years, that thing is maybe at the top.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: And I know we really try to reach out to people who have had bad church experiences in the past and hopefully create a safe space for them. And I know so oftentimes our bad church experiences, they might stem from bad churches or bad theology or toxic social groups within the church.
More oftentimes than not, though, I think it's emotional unhealth in leaders. Right?
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: That drives that wound or whatever.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Of course, lends itself really well in churches where more often than not you got one leader that's at the top. And there's even this understanding of like, calling that's on that person's life that's at the top. And so there's a lot of leverage that you can have in that position. If you want to lead that way, you can lead with a really unhealthy leverage, and it can go unchecked for a long period of time even no matter what kind of structure that you have in place, it can go on for a long period of time. So it festers harder. I think, in. In religious aspects and in Christian pastors specifically.
Yeah, it's. It's the core principle. If you don't have an emotionally healthy leader, I'm just not sure, even if you build something that's great and profound, how long will that stand and how healthy is it really at its core? And is it actually doing the Thing that you want it to do.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I appreciate shared leadership for those reasons, is that I think it gives you less place to hide in emotional unhealth when you're not all by yourself.
And even speaking to solo leadership, just the opportunity for ego to run unchecked. And I think back in my time here at Westside, I feel like I was more of a controlling, egocentric leader, even back in my youth ministry days when it was just me making all the decisions solo.
Hopefully, that I am now. And obviously, hopefully there's growth and maturity that happens naturally as time goes by. But I think shared leadership is kind of that it pushes against the natural bent towards control, egomaniac tendencies, all those things. What do you think? Because you spent a long time building your own thing by yourself in Klamath as young adult pastor, youth pastor, and then stepped into. To share leadership along with me.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And I loved that. And it fueled me. Right. It fueled that ego part of me.
But I think I had done it for so long and had reached that point of exhaustion as an independent leader that this was a relief. Like, by the time it came around and I was reading emotionally healthy leaders, so maybe that helped too. But, yeah, I hit this point where I was like, this is just not. I don't want to do this the rest of my life and rise and fall on this very specific performance of mine, whether it's preaching or leading worship or leading this discipleship group. And it just felt like the stakes were so high on me every single time.
And the stakes still feel high, but in a much more manageable kind of way. And then the addition to what you're talking about is that the ego can't go unchecked with the two of us around, is that also when we do reach these moments where maybe there's some emotional unhealthy, we are built in space givers for each other to go and then to find another grounding in that or to rest and recover. And I've had that probably twice already in our shared leadership together, where I was just like, man, I just need, like a little bit of time to reorganize this stuff in my mind or process something.
And it's a lot easier to go, I'm going to take two weeks vacation or I'm going to take that sabbatical that's coming up when you've got another person in the chair next to you and you work as a team, as a leadership team. Right. Like, a lot of pastors don't have that luxury.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And A really dangerous feeling in leadership is that only I understand the weight. Nobody else gets it. And then it almost gives you, like, justification or permission when you feel like you're all alone, bearing the weight of something, to then turn to really unhealthy coping mechanism. You know, nobody gets what I'm, you know, what I'm facing as a leader, so I'm going to go, you know, drink or have an affair or fill in the blank of unhealthy and really, really bad coping mechanisms. This kind of pushes against that where it's like, no, I'm not all alone here.
I've got Ben and Lindsay and Kim and Justin and the rest of the. You know, like, there's. It's. It's this environment of sharing.
[00:15:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And eliminates that need for secret keeping that is generated in the middle of all that. You and I don't have those secrets together. There's no feeling like, because it's so hard, and it's just for me, I have to kind of keep that stuff put away. It's all out in the open, and we manage it together. And. Yeah. I can't imagine doing it any other way.
You got a sabbatical coming up next year?
[00:15:22] Speaker B: Yeah, we haven't put anything on the calendar yet.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, you're due for one.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Actually, last time I went on sabbatical was supposed to happen in 2020. Happened in 2021.
And we left the end of September.
And so every time September rolls around and we get to the end of it and the day's kind of cool. It takes me back to the moment we were all my family. We were all sitting on my front porch waiting for a ride to the airport. And it was a sunny day, kind of cool autumn. And we get to this season, and I'm like, oh, I remember that trip. And it's a very. It's a very cozy, nice feeling. So it reminds me, like, oh, yeah, probably should take another sabbatical. It's coming up for on schedule.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: Me and Lindsey are gonna have to push you out the door, I think. Probably make it happen.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, probably.
But no rhythms and RAs. Super important.
I didn't know that we were going to talk about leadership so much on this podcast, but, you know, just really important to not allow yourself as a leader to think, like, all this is riding on me. Yeah. So I can't leave ever. I can't be gone for a weekend. I can't not have the church hear my voice, like, all that is garbage and will lead you to burnout. So Quick, for sure.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: You feel like you get to reap a lot of the benefits of shared leadership. Lindsay, you're in a different spot than us. We kind of share that senior pastor. Not kind of. We do share the senior pastor title. Does it filter down?
[00:16:43] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
I wouldn't want to do it all by myself.
And there's a lot. Well, you guys have already touched on so many of the strengths of it. But in my ministry, specifically, when it comes to our worship ministry, to lead worship every week, three services a week, forever, that would burn me out very, very quickly. And so to have a team of people, not just fellow worship leaders, but my whole team of volunteers, which probably, I probably have about 30, 35 volunteers that I rotate through different Sundays. Everyone shoulders the weight, but not even just that. It's. Everyone brings something to the table that I don't, you know, and so you get the advantage of hearing other people's good ideas and their passion and their vision for what is also their ministry. And I have found nothing but good fruit from shared leadership. And I think the way was paved for me, you know, with Steve and the two of you, you know, shared leadership was thrown around a lot even before it was three senior pastors. It was always, we do this together, we're a team. And so when I stepped into the worship pastor role, it was almost like the ground was already paved for me to do that. It was very easy for me to just step right in and think, nope, this isn't all on me. This isn't just about me. I have help, I have a team, I have support. And it's always been pretty collaborative, which I'm so appreciative of.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: And there is a mystique to the Lone Ranger, self sufficient leader who goes out and, you know, Teddy Roosevelts their way into greatness.
Right.
Or Teddy Roosevelt. Pick your, you know, pick your American hero that has that just grit and can do it all on their own when no one else supports them.
And that's. I think it's a myth that that is a model that lends to health.
[00:18:49] Speaker C: You know, or commendable even. Like, I think that can sometimes happen. Like, wow, look it, they're on their own and people commend it. And I think that's. That's backwards, you know.
[00:19:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: John Wayne would have been the more apt.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Think. Right?
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: That kind of American mystique. Teddy Roosevelt was great. You're not wrong, you know, the Rough.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: Riders and he was leading the charge and then, and then creating the national Parks. I don't know much about Teddy Roosevelt.
[00:19:18] Speaker C: Yet you used him as a verb.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. Teddy Roosevelt is a verb. Lindsey, by the way, we went to the Museum of Natural History in New York City, and after watching Night at the Museum, I was expecting much more of an impressive Teddy Roosevelt statue. It's just his head.
It's just shoulders to head and it's kind of in just this. It's more in just like a lobby and it's just kind of sitting like not a lobby, like a seating area, in like a lower. It's not even a main entrance.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: He's not on a horse.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: No. Oh, maybe there is. I think there used to be one on a horse outside. But as far as an indoor one on a horse, no, it's like a bronze head. That's it.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: That's really disappointing. It is a big bummer.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: The mythology of it, what you just said, Lindsay, actually kind of lends itself well to this Sunday school conversation we've been having over the last couple weekends with.
I think we do mythologize even the stories that we have the text of in front of us that we go all the way through. Right. Noah's a good one. You talked about every kid's room has a rainbow and an ark. And, you know, nobody's really painting all the death.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: The drownings get less, less attention.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: And it's funny, it's right there in front of us.
But we maybe romanticize or we change the narratives in these.
And I think there is this idea that almost every hero in scripture is some kind of battle tested warrior. And certainly there are some of those, but not all of them. And many of them react in ways that we wouldn't have expected. Right?
[00:20:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And actually you talked about Daniel this week. Daniel's maybe the exception to it. In that top of mind, without rereading through the whole story, not a lot of, you know, things that Daniel does that you're like, ooh, that's rough around the edge. We're talking about David this week. And of course, in the life of David, he makes some huge, horrible mistakes along the way. Daniel is kind of unique in his story that he kind of stays above the fray the whole time. Right. And we find him not this complicated figure that's low lows and high highs, but he's unique in his willingness to assimilate into the empire and stay true to his values. And you spent a lot of time talking about that this weekend.
[00:21:35] Speaker A: Yeah. I wanted to highlight the fact that he is so contrary to whatever normal hero that we're used to seeing. There's not a lot of adventure in Daniel. There's a lot of listening that Daniel has and it comes with different kingdoms and kings and different situations. And he's under empire, they've been taken captive, they're with people that they don't necessarily want to be with and they certainly don't want to be ruled by. And he gains favor with every single one of these rulers and he communicates the heart of God to every single one of them. And sometimes it elevates him and sometimes it gets him into trouble and he continues just on this path. He's actually really a very one note hero. There's not a whole lot of dynamic to his story. He is the exact same person at the beginning of Daniel as he is at the end of the story of Daniel and the lion's den in chapter six. He's very boring in that he just has his way and he's trying to stay faithful to God, remember his identity by praying toward Jerusalem and that's it. And the world is what kind of fluctuates in really big swings around him.
And that's really cool evidence, if you read it that way, of the faithfulness of God.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And if you, if you never related to like the David characters, the warriors who are, you know, striking down giants and leading armies into battle, maybe Daniel's your guy. Sounds like he's kind of like really into admin and spreadsheets and just really good at organizing things for whoever happens to be in power at the time and just faithfully prays. Loves to pray at his lunch break, you know, so there's somebody for everybody to really connect with, I guess, personality wise.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Yeah. It's funny that all these rulers came in and each one of them at some point along the way was like, Daniel should really be leading this area. He should be the big boss and not me. Maybe we pass it off to him so he can move on to something else.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: And that kind of approach, I guess might get a lot of flack in our world. This idea of don't you have any principles at all? You're just going to like support whatever is currently happening. Like, where are your, you know, where are your opinions? And you talked about how you have a lot of opinions, but instead of just always belligerently shouting those opinions, what we're trying to do is take everything before God in prayer. Right. As a, as a first step, and then let him decide when are we going to rise up, when are we going to shout when are we going to hold things? When are we not going to say anything?
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: Speak to that a little bit.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah. It's certainly the humble move. Right. And you could even say it's the brave or the courageous move to slow down long enough and present all the stuff that we have. I think one of the big mistakes that we make in life is that we try to, like, pretend that so much of the stuff that has made us just doesn't exist. And, no, I threw that off, and that's not part of me anymore or whatever. And really, like, the approach that I'm trying to take personally is, no, all this stuff did help make me. And it's created these thoughts and opinions that I have, whether it's about how to parent or politics or whatever.
And I do have all these, and I'm going to put them all on the tray, so to speak. And I'm going to carry those into the room and I'm present them before God and say, can you help me understand what to do with all of this? And maybe it is to deny some of it, and maybe it's to elevate or raise the volume on other pieces of it at the moment.
But the power happens in that process of I'm actually going to be willing to take all this before God, before I just try to go viral or I have a hot take, or I just want to shout at somebody. And it's so much harder, and it takes so much more time.
And Daniel is inspiring to me because he had so many moments where I would actually give him credit for responding in a really reactionary way. But he continues on his practice. I'm being elevated, and they think I'm important. Cool. I'm going to go pray. They've changed the laws, and now I can't pray. Well, I'm gonna go pray anyway. Well, I'm sitting right next to a lion.
Now's the time to stop praying and to don't do that anymore. Just fight back. Or I think in one of the services, they fashion a shiv and fight the lion. You know, maybe last time I used the word shiv in a Sunday service.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: Or the first time or the first day. It was probably the first.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: Well, yeah. And it seems so contrary to our culture.
And I think that's why the messaging is important.
Yeah.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
The pace and the style of kind of the reactionary environment that we're in, like, civically, just like politics is, of course, a big piece of it, but it goes beyond that. I don't think it's just political or policy that gets thrown out online and then needs reaction. Look at anything from entertainment to cancel culture to other movements far outside of politics, but for sure, politics. And there is, I think, a trap that church leaders like ourselves can feel of, like we've got to match that reactionary environment.
And I think people want us to. If you're immersed in that kind of constant news cycle, opinions, loud, proud opinions hitting you all the time, you come to church and you kind of want that aggressive, well, tell me what you think. And I hope it aligns with me. Otherwise I'm going to go next door to that church because I know they align. You know, like there's this pressure and you talk to that kind of actually slowing down is the harder thing that maybe is what Christ calls us to.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah. I personally lend myself to two reactions under pressure that I talked about. One is to just walk away from whatever the volume is, and the other is to get louder than it. And I think we're faced with that a lot in our culture today, especially when you talk about political stuff or, you know, whatever everybody's fighting about. I talked to someone today that was like, I just feel like either I should run for office or I should go live in the woods. And that's my choices. Those are my options. And it feels that way. And what do we do and how do we function in the middle? And Daniel does something like that. He doesn't become a revolutionary and overthrow the Babylonians. And he doesn't just disappear into the ether either. He's very actively involved and he's allowing God's voice to use him in the moment.
And there's a kind of patience that. That takes that. I don't know that hardly anybody has the stomach for it anymore because nobody's going to click on the guy that's like, maybe we should wait and see how this turns out. Or maybe we should really get all the information and then comment on it. That's not really how it works. And I was. I listened to during the pandemic, a podcast called Presidential by the Washington Post. I don't know if you guys ever listen to that, but they just do an episode per president that we've had all the way to the back. And every single episode there's a bit that's like. And they created these policies, and then we didn't really see the results of those policies until six years later. We didn't have a full understanding of what the ramifications of that would be. And certainly you can see a lot of things in real time that create conflict or problems or issues. But so many things that these guys do. There's just this really long story that's told as a result of policy change, and we just don't usually have the stomach to understand that and to wait and see.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: We take all of our information in like 15 minute chunks, right? Where it's like, if I have to think about this longer than that, just give me how I should feel. And if it sounds right, even I've talked to people that are just not even reading full articles. They're just hitting headlines on their newsfeed or their social media feed and kind of absorbing what's going on in the world through that. And I almost want to be like, if you're going to just do that, maybe tune out completely, you know, either really learn about what's going on and get into it, or maybe just stay out. But this, I think it's so dangerous. Just this headline version of this is how you should think about the world, or this is how you should think about what's going on in this conflict in Ukraine or in Gaza, or this is how these people are. And so you should agree with that. If all we're getting is like single sentences, man, we're ripe to be manipulated, I think.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure. And there's. I just don't know how we slow down. Like, it takes a real rebellion of the soul to push back against this thing that's constantly just kind of tapping you in the back and saying, you gotta go a little faster. No, go, go, go, go, go, go. Now, Now's the time. Oh, and it just, it's. I think in one of the services, again, I said, you know, it's. We have to develop some of these practices and these rhythms. Otherwise it's just you against your phone. And that's a scary place to be because I feel like we will lose every single time if it's just me against my phone.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: And I hope people are hearing that, you know, even with the death of Charlie Kirk two weeks ago, which I talked about in that service a couple days afterwards.
But we've heard back from people wishing that we would really spend more time and go after that. And I think sometimes these conversations about pushing back against the social media frenzy or the media frenzy of reaction, they might interpret that as, oh, we don't care, or Ben and Evan aren't even aware of what's going on. And that's not it. Right.
We're aware. We see the news, we listen.
Like I said, Two weeks ago.
This is horrible. I mean, it's heartbreaking for Charlie Kirk's family. And as we saw on Sunday, even during our service, you know, 95,000 people came out for his memorial service. Of course this matters. Of course it does.
But sometimes if our reaction doesn't, you know, match a certain fever pitch, it feels like we're saying that we don't care or it doesn't matter or our politics don't align in certain ways. So then we're gonna. And I think we're trying to push back against that and help people kind of maybe come to a healthier, slower pace.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: Yeah. You don't want us to chase headlines as preachers. I promise you that would be a really wild ride. And really quickly, we would make everyone so mad because we would say the current event of the day is the priority and we're going to preach to that. And then how we preach to that would rub you wrong in one way, shape or form. I mean, there's a reason I'm learning the older that I get that there's like a church calendar, because you could react to anything. And I think it's holy to come up to the next couple months ago. It's Advent season, and this is what we're talking about because that's. We're trying to connect to this ancient thing that is not in tune with our social media feed. It is all the way outside of it.
And that, of course, does not mean that we're not paying attention or don't care. There's a headline that I would love to talk about every single week. I've got an opinion about it.
I think I heard the number the other day in the New York Times. Said it was 650,000 people had died in Gaza. Like, this grieves the heart of God. This is horrific.
And I don't know that I have the stomach to preach to it every single week. It doesn't mean it's not being taken into account.
There are so many things. And compare one tragedy to another, that's a fool's errand. And we're not going to do any of that either. But. But yeah, I agree with what you're saying. We're not chasing headlines. And we do care. We see it. We care. And hopefully all of our teachings are helping equip you for a moment in that and not just the Sunday after something happens that is meaningful to you or me.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And for anybody who is part of the church or attends the church and is listening for signals that we're on one side or the other, or we're with them or we're not with them. And looking for those signals, I really try and I think we hope that we're going to frustrate all those attempts to put us in different camps or, you know, I hope our church is not a place where you can find that we're completely aligned with a political party or tribe.
I think Jesus is bigger than that. And God forbid the day when, you know, every church community only aligns with one political party, I just think we have to have a more challenging community than that.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: Yeah. If it fits, Veloda said this or Brian Zahn said this, or they retweeted somebody else.
But if you fit neatly into a political party, then you're probably having a hard time fitting neatly into the kingdom of God. Is the idea like those two things just contradict themselves all the time. And, yeah, if you're looking for stuff like, you can find it, I guess if you want to read between lines that we're not necessarily trying to communicate to you, and you can find all those things to match whatever ideology, you know, and then sometimes what's happening in the political realm or what's happening in the world around us will sound like we went after that on purpose. And that's almost incidental. Or maybe it's actually the thing that you love so much is actually coming against the way of Jesus and you're feeling that. There was little, you know, there was a sound bite from Trump this last week that said, I hate my enemies. And I immediately was like, that's the centerpiece of our whole thing.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: And I could preach this next week and say, and you should love your enemies.
And you could read into that however you want. That's in the scripture. It's part of the gig. It's. It's maybe, you know, Jesus obviously, is a center. That teaching is the center of what we do. And if you want to interpret that as me picking aside, I guess you can go for it.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: Well, in the context of that, you know, you have Erica Kirk at her husband's memorial through tears. I just watched it before this, through tears, saying, I forgive my husband's murderer.
[00:35:20] Speaker A: Amazing.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: Amazing. And she said, because that's what Christ would do. So really a beautiful picture. And again, set politics aside for a moment. It's just a beautiful picture of.
Of forgiveness and directly attributed to the model that we have in Christ. And then it's Trump right after her, and he says it a little tongue in cheek. It's for a Laugh.
But it's also true, right, that he just says, that's not how I roll. Like, I hate my enemies.
And then he said, and maybe they can convince me otherwise. And you gotta laugh.
But this is, I think, what we see as these opposing forces within that whole political camp where you sincerely held, faithful Christian beliefs happening. I wouldn't challenge that. I wouldn't say those people are phonies. But then it's right up against this raw power of the state. And when those merge, I think you run the risk of one or the other becoming corrupted. Right. And the hope, I know by sincerely held Christian belief believing people is that the Christian beliefs will win over the power of the state and the state will look like the kingdom of God.
Problem with that is that's actually not how Jesus set it up. And every time they tried to make him king, he said, nope, my path towards the kingdom coming goes through the cross, not through the crown.
And I don't think we can do better than Jesus.
Right.
And not to discount the sincerely held beliefs of really wonderful people who want to see this happen, who want to see the political realm and the Christian faith merge into one.
I just know for me, I just think the gospel tells us that that's not how it works.
[00:37:11] Speaker A: Yeah. And the history of the church tells us that it won't work. Right. Is how it goes. And I think you make such a good point. Charlie Kirk's wife, in a moment.
Well, I would call it a miracle to forgive your enemies that just did a completely heinous and horrific thing to openly stand up in front of a group of people and say, I forgive them.
That is the stuff right there. That is what this faith is all about.
And then it's almost like sometimes the rest of the world just doesn't quite know how to realize and address that. The miracles that Jesus performed, often the Pharisees were looking at each other like. Like, what do we do now? You know? And that's.
It will confound. The real, true, genuine beauty of this faith in Jesus will so often confound and just look in stark contrast to the rest of the world when it happens in such a beautiful way. Like that. And I think we saw some of that.
[00:38:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And so anybody that's listening and that thinks, like, unless we are all the way on one side, that means we're all the way on another.
I just want to push back against that.
We can look at what Trump says, how he hates his enemies, and say, that's not good. That's not Jesus.
Without that meaning or equaling that. Now we're fully embracing some politician on the left.
And that's, I think, in the water right now is either you're completely on board with the extreme left or you're automatically on the right, or you're completely on board with the right, or you're a Marxist on the left. And it's just not true. Jesus will challenge all the groups all the time, and I hope we do a decent job. I think we have to probably continue to talk about these things because there's such an assumption that if I don't hear what signals to me that you're on my team, you're for sure all the way on the other, and it's just not how it goes.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And we've. We take a lot of pride in having a lot of people on each side in our services. And I think I can confidently say there are even some fairly extremes on each side.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: And I think just, just today, just you were having a conversation with somebody that would be more on the liberal side. I was having a phone call with somebody that's very much on the conservative side. And we're. We're pastoring both right at the same time.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: And the idea is to leave both of those conversations with hope for people and not me bringing that to people, but that they would leave believing in this hopeful thing that we're trying to accomplish together. That's the whole goal. I never have those conversations unless they're radically against what is the real heart of God. I never enter into those conversations going, man, I gotta change their mind. Because that's pastoring. It's helping people understand where they're at and then trying to find the way of Jesus from that point forward. And, and often people do that on their own through prayer and community.
I thought Lindsay phrase it really well in the message she spoke a little while ago, that there is, you know, Scripture certainly has formed your way of living or life or whatever. I can let you say it here in just a second, but that you talked about the importance of the community that actually, like, was really the driver and the accelerant into understanding the way of Jesus. Is that right? Am I saying it kind of right?
[00:40:28] Speaker C: I have no idea what you're referring to.
What did I say?
[00:40:33] Speaker A: You were talking about community.
[00:40:35] Speaker C: I will say that the importance of a diverse community is there's something that does to a person's faith that is intentional that Jesus actually modeled for us when he put his disciples together. Is that what you're thinking?
[00:40:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And you were talking about your own personal experience.
[00:40:52] Speaker C: Sure, yeah. And having people on in all different walks of life with all different perspectives influence me and my walk with Jesus.
You know, all of it has contributed to where I am now and whether that's discarding some things, you know, that I was taught or shown early on and embracing others or vice versa or whatever.
It's very important to have people amongst your faith community that you don't agree with, because that is actually, you know, I think when we're all with Jesus at the end of all of this, I think we're gonna be pretty shocked at who's there because I think it'll be people we really disagreed with and we prioritized the wrong thing in that interaction. But it all.
I just think the community aspect of our faith and diverse community is very, very important. And that's also where we kind of test things.
We test the scripture, we test what we feel God's doing in our midst in community.
Because very similar to like a solo leader who is just isolated and on their own and they don't have anyone that's speaking into what's happening and they just are on an island unto themselves and no one is giving feedback to what is happening. Similar in community, like we test what God is saying and doing among us. We test the scripture together. We test all these things within community and the variedness is what makes that beautiful.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:29] Speaker C: And so. Yeah, I don't know if that's what you're referring to.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: No, that's exactly right. And so what, what, how that plays into my point is because we know that we have a community right now that exists in this way and we like, we would like it to continue to grow that way, that there are many, many, many, many conversations or, or government policies or headlines or whatever that come down the pike that are nuanced and complicated and sometimes there's trade offs inside of them and you won't hear us from the platform, fight over those or pick some kind of a side. And that happens all the time. That there are some things that are nuanced. I chalk those up as a pastor and I say that is a conversation about how to run an earthly government. I have opinions about those things. I could argue about those things, but that's not a piece of my job as a pastor. And then there are some areas where government or cultural people, headlines specifically speak in this way that's trying to influence the world against the way of Jesus. And I do feel like it is our responsibility in that time to Pastor, people to continue toward the way of Jesus. That does not include that thing. Does that make sense? So sometimes we speak out and people are like, oh, they're getting political. And it's like this crossed the line over into our territory now. And so we do have to address it. It not everything does that.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And it takes discernment on knowing what are we going to speak up and what are we not. And we have great robust conversations about that.
What we refuse to allow in our church, I think, I think we should refuse to allow is the attitude that you cannot be a conservative and follow Jesus or you cannot be a liberal and follow Jesus. That somehow a political party and your association with that excludes you completely from being able to be saved because that starts to fall into the camp of this dehumanizing othering over politics. We're saying, well of course they're not following Jesus because they're conservatives and it's impossible.
I think we have to have more grace and make more allowance for each other, like Paul says in the Ephesians, than saying that. Because otherwise we get back to early church, Jews and Gentiles conversation. You can't be a Gentile and follow God.
And then the Gentiles would say, you can't make it all about circumcision and food rights and follow the way of Jesus. And Paul would say, stop fighting, you have to figure this out, come together. No, you can't segregate, you can't make your own churches. You have to be in the same building.
I mean, that's a pretty direct indictment of the divisiveness that exists in the American church today. Right?
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you're just cycling all the history. You can't be a black person and you can't be a Samaritan, you can't be this. There's all kinds of groupings that we've created over the course of time. And yeah, you're right, Paul would do the hard thing, the courageous thing, and say, no, we have to figure this out. It's a non negotiable. We're going to do church this way and it's going to include all of us. And I understand in my silly brain why it's so tempting to tribalize like that. It's so much easier. It is so much more streamlined. It makes it so much easier to preach. There are so many things that I go up and I'm about to say, or I do say on a Sunday and my stomach hurts. Not because I'm going, oh, I didn't Believe that, but because I'm going. Is that the right words for this moment with this group of people? Because I value this group of people. I don't need all of them to think I'm the greatest thing in the world. But me as a pastor, I want to know that I'm doing what I believe to be the right thing. It hurts your stomach when you do it like that. And it's way easier to gather a group of people that are. Just cheer me on when I get my angriest. That stinks, man. According to Paul and according to history that we've had. And so that's the.
The challenge. I don't think we're trying to get everybody to, like, empathize with us as pastors, but this is the practice that I think even goes outside of our positions. It's the practice that we're trying to engage in as Christians.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's just outside of what really works. And clicks, like, literally gets clicks.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: You know, it really is the doubling down on and the volume of your opinions that gets attention. And attention gets, you know, attention gets money in the economy that we live in. And so go in this direction. It's hard, it's tedious, it's slow.
And I think Jesus is in it. I do, I do.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: Yeah. There's even a little bit of whiplash. Just exactly. You said those conversations. We had conversations very. All across the spectrum. And I was like, this is a weird job that we've got, a weird calling that we have.
And I'm also proud of. I would say both of those people today. Nobody was mad.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:17] Speaker A: They had questions. And we welcome questions and curiosity and why wouldn't you do it like this, but with kindness and understanding that we're all trying to do our best. Yeah.
[00:47:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I joined the. It's an advisory board to the chief of police in the NPD this week.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: I keep fascinating.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: You did that.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Did you have a meeting yet?
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I had a first meeting.
Fascinating couple.
A couple former Westsiders there, a current West Sider there on the. On the council and then met a bunch of other people. And.
Yeah, it's so fascinating because I'm not in a lot of spaces other than, like, going to the target or whatever. The target. Going to target.
I'm not in a lot of spaces where I'm not connected in some way because of church.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: So like, church, you're just a community member. I'm just a community member. I'm just sitting around the table with other community members learning and so I really felt like this was a good thing to do to get outside of rooms where, like, I'm the pastor or a pastor or whatever.
And fascinating how even just because we were all going around introducing ourselves, saying what we do. And as soon as I said that, I was a senior pastor from that time, throughout the meeting and then afterwards, there was, like, not, like, a respectful deference, but it was like, people put you in a category, whether for or against, immediately, you know, and you could tell, like, just this. The vibe changes when you're out yourself as a clergy member. And you can tell. Some people really liked that about me, and some people were like, whoa, yikes.
And fascinating, though, how much baggage the Christian faith carries in our society.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: People do that with you, Lindsay.
Maybe tell people you're a pastor.
[00:49:03] Speaker C: Maybe. I haven't experienced.
Because for the longest time, it's worship pastor. So it's. And when I explain it to people who aren't churchgoers, it's. I'm in charge of all the music. Like, that's the easiest way to break it down. So I think it's a little bit different than what you guys deal with. So not really to my knowledge, maybe behind my back.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: The atmosphere change is one of my least favorite things.
No, it's real.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: One person said that she was coming back for a second term on this advisory council or whatever, and she's like, and I'm gonna do better because I know I missed a lot last time, and now my pastor's here, so God's watching, too.
I was like, no, no, don't put me in that category of, like, watching over everyone's behavior. And then afterwards, another person came up to me, and she was just like, you just go to Westside? I just, you know.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: I haven't been there a long time, and I need to get back. And I'm like, it's okay. It's okay. Don't feel any, like, religious pressure from me just because I'm in the room. You don't have to feel bad about yourself. And it's. It is so true. How.
You know. I don't know how you get around it, but that's the.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: I was just about to say, there's always, like, a report coming at the end. Oh, yeah. I am happy to see you. I'm so sorry. I am in a church, and this is what's been going on. I. I have intentions to get back, and it's like, I am so not interested in any of this.
[00:50:26] Speaker B: It's hard to think, like, oh, my Very presence in a room brings people shame.
I don't like that.
We should be grace people.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: I mean, maybe we should lean into it sometime and you show up to that meeting and go. Actually, the reason I'm here.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: I see you over there. You look like a former Westsider. Where have you been?
[00:50:48] Speaker A: You're gonna wish God was watching after this. It's just me right now holding you accountable.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: I did mention one of the reasons I'm there is because of our involvement in safe parking. And police chief gave a huge shout out to safe parking. He's like, and everyone else, you need to talk to anyone who might be interested and host your own site.
Ben PD is so pro safe parking and gave us a huge shout out in that meeting from the police chief. That's really cool. He was just saying the safe parking sites around town hardly get any calls. They don't have issues as far as police responses and just night and day from the dispersed camping.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: They have a site that's up and running.
[00:51:25] Speaker B: Is that right? The Bend pd, they're opening. I think this is Sheriff. Sheriff's department.
[00:51:32] Speaker A: Are other people there? Like, is he talking about other people should have shared parking, like in their driveways or they.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: No, he's basically saying if you know people that have, like, you know, businesses encouraging anyone to do it. But yeah, the. And the. The people on the. On the council, it's kind of a wide swath. You know, some people that are in government work, a lot of people that aren't just normal community members. Yeah. Fascinating.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. I mean, I've been safe parking in front of my house for a while.
[00:52:00] Speaker B: That's true.
[00:52:00] Speaker A: So, yeah.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:52:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:52:02] Speaker B: The police have not been called, I don't think at all.
[00:52:04] Speaker A: I don't think a single time the.
[00:52:05] Speaker B: Whole year you've been safe parking in your driveway.
[00:52:07] Speaker A: I am putting together. We've decided to put together thank you packages to the neighborhood once our house is done. Sorry about the mess and the destruction and just, you know, me walking around without a shirt on in the driveway and all that stuff.
[00:52:23] Speaker B: I did, I did. See, I think you had your water cans out of your truck here at the church. And that's always a signal of desperation. Yeah. Just asking for sympathy. When you see your 15 gallon water cans out of your truck every once.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: In a while I bring that big can, fill it up here, take it home, dump it into the trailer. That was a heck of an experience.
There have been a few times where dog needed to go out at like midnight or something, you know, And I'm, yeah, I'm ready for bed. And I'm like, I'm about to be that guy. It's going to walk out in front of my house looking not ready to be out in public to take my dog out here, his dog on it. Or I put like a blanket over. Then every once in a while the car lights would come by, you know, driving past the house and be like.
[00:53:05] Speaker B: As if they don't know who lives here.
They just see from the knees down. They're like, that's Ben can tell.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: Cover my face.
[00:53:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
I would know those calves anywhere.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: It's been the weirdest experience. I. I will say, and I've been really not wanting to talk about this until I could formulate some better words. I will. I'm. I'm really proud of us for doing safe parking. And a little bit of that is because of the experience that we've had. We are not in safe parking. We are not in the situation that so many people are. But our life has been upended in a way that for many days I have been anxious and I've lost my creativity or the ability to plan ahead. Like every day for months was like, what do I have to do right now in order to make this work? I fill a propane tank and, okay, I gotta go fill it. And it adds this layer that if you don't have that consistency. And again, I don't want to compare my experience to others.
It's hard, man. And it's hard to like, be the fullest self that you have wanted to be in so many ways. Like I said, the creativity piece, that's real, went out the window like immediately and it became utilitarian. How do I survive today and how do we make the kids comfortable right now?
And so I'm really happy that people are going to get this hopefully, like, slowed down experience. I imagine like one of the best visions I had of people staying in these small houses was somebody like laying down on the bed and looking at their phone for a little while or.
[00:54:31] Speaker B: Watching a movie, just being able to breathe.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Just.
[00:54:34] Speaker A: It's really wonderful.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And if people are imagining like you have this, you know, motor coach RV with full hookups, you were in a travel trailer.
[00:54:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:44] Speaker B: With no water, no power, so batteries and cans of water.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:50] Speaker B: And then you had, you have to, you have to drive it down to empty the tanks.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Oh, we would bring out somebody empty.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: Okay, that's smart. But still, but still, like, it's, it's.
[00:54:58] Speaker A: They're not being emptied Every day.
[00:54:59] Speaker B: You're basically dry camping for a whole year.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah, man.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:02] Speaker A: It's no joke. And it does. It does something to your mind.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:05] Speaker A: That is not.
It's not sustainable. I'll put it that way. I think anybody could go through it for a year like I did.
Doing that as a lifestyle and just trying to make it every day. A lot of.
A lot of, like, unhoused. The things that I've seen in the lives of people that. It makes even more sense to me now, having gone through, like, this fraction of an experience of it like we did.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: It's.
[00:55:29] Speaker A: It's no joke.
[00:55:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we're really glad the long national nightmare is over for you. I know.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: And so are so many of the women's Bible studies that I think are praying for us every Tuesday.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: That's amazing.
We want pictures. Once you're in your house, we want to see this transformation.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: You're going to get them all the pictures.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: I would say a tour, but, you know, you just need some time to yourself before you start having people over.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Just enjoy it.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: I want to make a brisket, though. I made a brisket in so long.
[00:55:58] Speaker B: Okay, I'll come over for brisket.
[00:55:59] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:55:59] Speaker B: You guys in?
[00:56:00] Speaker C: Lindsay, we're in.
[00:56:01] Speaker B: Bring the family over.
[00:56:02] Speaker C: 100 on.
[00:56:03] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: Hey, great conversation today.
[00:56:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that was good. Yeah.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: I may have cried once or twice.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: You might cry again before the end of this outro.
