Ruth, Women in Ministry and the Theology of Aliens

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming and I'm joined as always by Lindsay Parnell and Evan Earwicker, the newly announced associate pastor of Westside Church. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah, we did make that announcement yesterday. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Sorry, include your title. [00:00:28] Speaker C: Rude. You have to address me as such. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I did bow when you came into the room, though, so that's good. [00:00:34] Speaker B: I did feel a little scrappy yesterday. So if for those that weren't with us yesterday, we announced, Lindsay, that your title has changed from worship and spiritual formation, Worship and formation pastor to associate pastor with the dual announcement that we hired a new worship pastor, which is Aaron Houston, who'll be here at the end of the month. But your title came up on the screen as associate pastor, and most people probably don't pay too close of attention, but it was changed. So I kind of jumped in and made a five minute announcement exhortation on women in ministry. [00:01:07] Speaker A: The whole deal. [00:01:08] Speaker B: On the fly. The 8:15. And kept it going. [00:01:11] Speaker A: I mean, on the fly, the announcement makes sense. On the fly. An exhortation. Now that is some serious pastor. [00:01:16] Speaker B: That's right. Going off my notes even before I begin. But yeah, you had no warning, though. And so I think you heard your name backstage. [00:01:24] Speaker C: I did. I heard you say my name and I made everyone be quiet in the lounge and I turned the TV up so I could hear what you were saying about me. No, it was very kind. [00:01:32] Speaker A: Thank you, everybody. [00:01:33] Speaker C: Very kind words. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Yeah, shut up. [00:01:35] Speaker C: Shut up, everybody. [00:01:36] Speaker B: What I maybe didn't make clear is that you'll still be leading worship. [00:01:39] Speaker C: I had someone ask me about that, actually. Yeah. And I mean, it'll be clear once I am still leading worship. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:01:47] Speaker A: We didn't make a mess of. And then we gotta clean that one [00:01:49] Speaker B: up again this weekend. [00:01:50] Speaker A: Let's make like three announcements about Lindsay in three weeks in a row. Just to keep you in the news. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Figure out what you want to say. Why don't you keep re announcing things? [00:01:59] Speaker C: Addendum. [00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Are you excited? What does this. [00:02:01] Speaker C: I am. [00:02:01] Speaker A: What does this do for you? [00:02:05] Speaker C: It feels very right. It feels like the next right thing for me. Yeah. I think. I think being able to acknowledge my limitations in some areas with worship is really important. And I think being able to find someone to bolster where I'm limited, which I think Aaron, our new worship pastor, Aaron Houston, does and will do. I'm very excited for him to come on board. I'm Excited, what it means for the ministry of worship. I really do believe that it's going to kind of excel. I believe there's going to be momentum and growth, and that's really exciting. Exciting for me. And then it's super exciting to get to lean more into the pastoral side of things, the spiritual formation and discipleship side of things. I just discovered my passion for that when I went to school, get my master's degree in that, and I just love it so much. So to be able to pivot a little bit and spend more time focusing on those things is super exciting. I'm. I'm stoked. [00:03:05] Speaker A: Does it feel weighty? [00:03:07] Speaker C: Yes, it does. Why does. My responsibilities are increasing a little bit on paper, and I feel the weight of that. But I don't take the term pastor lightly. I never have. I understand that it is. That's a big responsibility. And so even just doing some work with Jesus over the past couple weeks, like, reminder of who I am and my identity and what I'm called to do and finding security in that and setting performance aside, which is just going to be the theme of my life. But, yeah, it feels weighty, but it's just a good reminder to anchor yourself once again, like in the foundation of Christ and who he's called me to be, who he's called this church to be, and to just start from that place always. [00:03:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. [00:04:02] Speaker B: We are in this series on Old Testament figures, and that was part of feeling like it was the right moment to talk about not only you in a new role as associate pastor, but also the role of women in the church. We're talking about Ruth yesterday, and so it all kind of lines up. And so I thought it was poignant to talk about women in ministry because another thing that happened this week, and I don't know if you guys saw this, but the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, sbc, announced they are codifying or putting in their bylaws prohibition against women in pastoral ministry and. Or preaching teaching, which I guess has not been actually in their bylaws, but it's been their position. Now they want to make it a hard, fast rule so that it can't come up for debate at their convention, which I thought was fascinating because it's [00:04:55] Speaker A: been coming up for debate. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Evidently every time they gather, someone brings it up and they. They debate it. Yeah. So this is their saying, we're not going to talk about this anymore. Which as part of a movement that believes in women in ministry, it is. It's. It's crazy to me. I mean, it's just crazy that you even say, like, we're going to. We're not only going to silence women, we're going to silence a conversation about women so we can get onto the more important stuff as how it feels. And, you know, a lot of good theologians and people in the sbc, we're not demonizing all Baptists by any means, but around this issue, it's. I don't know, it's in the forefront, I think, nationally, in the American church. And so I think it's a moment for those of us who really believe in the role of women in leadership, pastoring, preaching, to speak up. Otherwise, sometimes we can get this maybe unintentional view that, like, if you take the Bible seriously, you won't allow women to be in leadership or ministry, and if you don't really care, then you will. And we would have a strong issue with that. No, we believe it is the way of the New Testament to empower men and women together alongside each other in ministry. [00:06:08] Speaker C: Right, Absolutely. I think it's quite frustrating to be demonized as a movement who does elevate women to positions of leadership and ministry, to be demonized and regarded as one who doesn't take scripture seriously. That's poof. Like, because I think we would confidently say we love the scripture, we study it, we live by it, we want to get to the bottom of it so we can teach it well and interpret it for our context. And so that is a really. It's a big point of frustration for me to. To think if you take scripture seriously, it will look like this, this and this, which a big part of that is holding women down and pushing them aside and not considering their voices. That's a big bummer. [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:06:58] Speaker A: Do you feel also, in combination, there's that announcement along with our announcement. Is that part of how you're thinking about this? Because I'll admit I can always be better at this conversation, for sure. Because on one hand, I look at you and I look at the time you spent here, the amount of time you've put in, into your. Your leadership and your management and your speaking and all that stuff. And really, because of our relationship and everything that you've done, here I go, well, of course, she's the associate pastor. And if you were a he, based on the pile of work, I would go, you would be the associate pastor. You know, your commitment and your whatever. So I, I am one of those people, on one hand, where I go, this just isn't about Lindsay being a woman. And of course, it's about you being a woman all at the same time. Like the. The weight and the value of that. There are other denominations and even individuals having these conversations all the time. Of course, this matters at a huge level that we would make this announcement that would be you. But also, it's. It's simpler than that, and it's more complex. I don't know. It's. I. Like I said, I'd like to get [00:08:04] Speaker B: better at this conversation, but is all [00:08:06] Speaker A: that going through your mind? [00:08:09] Speaker C: Yes and no. [00:08:10] Speaker B: Now it is. [00:08:12] Speaker A: Sorry. Now that I planted it in there. Jeez, can you not think about the pink elephant in the room? [00:08:17] Speaker C: No. I heard a woman speaker once who I look up to a lot. Her name is Jesse Marcus, and she's the lead pastor for a church in Kansas City called Jacob Swell. And I heard her teach, and she said, I have the privilege of forgetting that I'm a woman in most of the ministry spaces that I'm in. And. Same. Same. I don't have any experience of being looked over or held back or anything because I've been a woman. I'm very, very fortunate to have never experienced that, at least to my face. Like, I'm unaware of that at all. I've always been given opportunity based on skill and desire and passion, et cetera, et cetera. [00:08:58] Speaker A: Evan, behind your back, though. Sorry. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Keep going. [00:09:04] Speaker C: But at my final residency, this was a year and a half ago, I was in a space where the women were asked to speak and the men were asked to listen, and they. They were asked not to chime in. And the women recounted stories of absolute, horrendous interactions they had with male pastors or men who were in authority somehow over them, and they've been held back. They've been told their mental capacity is not the same as a man. So of course we wouldn't get. Give you this job, or your women are more emotional. Like all the stereotypes you can think of, but were just handled in such a damaging way to so many of these women. And through tears, a woman was physically shaking as she's recounting her experience. And my jaw was on the floor. I think an awareness of the reality of this for many, many women, that was actually kind of the domino for me that tipped it over. After that residency, I actually approached the both of you and said, okay, I'm ready. Like, I'm ready to do this. I'm ready to say yes in this area, because so many women actually are not given the opportunity. So that was like The. The start of it for me. But since then, you know, that I'm aware that other women should, should see that this is possible, you know, all that. But. But I don't feel like I'm like, I don't know, spokesperson for women in leadership or something like, you know, that's not at the forefront of my mind as I'm navigating this. Yeah, yeah. [00:10:42] Speaker B: And that being the poster child for, you know, women in ministry, or, I don't know, maybe shared leadership becomes our Ben and I's thing that everyone wants to talk to. I think it can be good and bad because at some point, that's not all we are. We're not just co pastors, we're also pastoring a church. And that comes with a lot more than just figuring out how Ben and I can have good chemistry together. And like, likewise, you're bringing the breadth of pastoral ministry to the church you serve, not only because you're a woman. And so, I don't know, I feel like there's this balancing act a little bit when you kind of become the go to around something in a community that it's like, well, yes, but it's not only because of that, and it's not the only thing that will flow out of this place because I'm here. [00:11:34] Speaker C: Right. [00:11:35] Speaker A: I wonder if it's kind of up to you, like, what do you want to make out of it? You know, I got to interview a woman named Jessica Mendoza, who does broadcasting for espn. She was an Olympic softball player, like a huge in the softball world. She's one of like three names that come up internationally. [00:11:52] Speaker B: She's amazing. [00:11:53] Speaker A: She lives here in town, often attends, you know, west side. And I got to interview her a little while ago, and I asked her about this dynamic because she was the first female color commentator on Major League baseball broadcasts on espn. And she's doing hitting instruction videos and doing all this stuff. And I asked her about this kind of dynamic. Like, she was like, of course I want to talk about it. Like, this is part of why I got into it actually was so that I could. I could have these conversations and I could tell people how I did it and how I broke in and all that. But she was pretty clear about, like, but that's what I want to do. And maybe there's another woman out there that just wants to come in and broadcast and leave that whole conversation to somebody else. So maybe there's something like this probably gets to be whatever you really want it to be. [00:12:38] Speaker C: I think the women in ministry and Leadership conversation will always be a part of this. And what I do, I think it's important. I think it's really, really important. But also I hope that just based on my merit, my skill and my calling and all of that, which you communicated very clearly, I know that that's not in question here, but I hope moving forward that you're right, Evan. It's a balance. It's a balance. I hold both, and I think I'm comfortable and I'm okay with having the conversation of women in ministry and leadership always. Yes. Especially with other women. Yes, let's do it. But also, like, let's talk about all the other fun stuff that happens in ministry in a church, in the kingdom of God. And, you know, there's so much more to it, but it's definitely a part of the conversation and probably will be for me forever. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And maybe reframing it a little bit too, that it is not a new trendy thing to empower women in ministry. I would actually say that it is on the trend to exclude women's voices in our day and age, which seems strange in 2026, that there would be an upswing trying to restrict women's voice, women's rights, even amongst fundamental Christian groups that are trying to push for the removal of women's right to vote. I mean, this is bonkers to me that this is where we're at. But part of what I wanted to do yesterday was maybe tell people or remind people that our movement, the Pentecostal movement, was empowering women before women had the right to vote in the United States. Of course, we were famously founded by Amy Sembel McPherson, a woman in 1923, and we could do a whole podcast on her. She's got a very interesting story herself. Some scandal there, for sure. Very imperfect leader. But also in our DNA as a movement, this is very prominent. And this is not a new thing. This goes back three, four generations. I think about my great, great grandma Taylor, and I've showed her picture a few times at the church, standing with her Bible outside a little Nazarene church. But after her third husband died, she went through a lot of husbands, most through arson. [00:15:04] Speaker A: Sister Amy? [00:15:05] Speaker C: No. Are you joking? [00:15:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I would say things burned down and killed husbands. We don't know if it was arson, but by the third one, you gotta wonder. [00:15:14] Speaker A: So we don't know arson. We know fire. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Fire, yes. [00:15:17] Speaker A: Stick with fire. [00:15:18] Speaker B: Well, 80% of fire just started by humans, so. But no, she. After her third husband died, she became an itinerant Circuit riding preacher. So she would go on horseback to these little Nazarene churches all the way from New Mexico up through Idaho. And she would visit and preach because they wouldn't have their own, you know, full time preachers or anything. And that was her gig between husband three and husband four. I think he survived to the end. So that was good. [00:15:48] Speaker C: Phew. [00:15:50] Speaker B: But just it's fascinating, like you go back to the Old west and you have women preaching and leading and so to now have this feeling of like, don't push your new fangled women in ministry on us. It just doesn't hold up. It's just not true. [00:16:06] Speaker C: Paul and women leaders of home churches, house churches in the New Testament, the early church had many women leaders. The way Jesus interacted with women, extremely subversive and countercultural in that day, like he esteemed them higher than anybody else did. And so, yeah, I think it goes back even farther than that. I actually have a framed picture in my office of the their icons of women in the New Testament. And there's probably 50 to 75 all women mentioned in the New Testament that had some kind of role in ministry and, or leadership. [00:16:44] Speaker B: And so, yeah, Yeah, I think seven are mentioned just in Romans chapter. Is it nine or 12 where Paul is greeting the leaders of the church. And a large percentage of those names mentioned are women. And whenever we talk about this, I haven't actually got any negative feedback from yesterday yet. We'll see. But more and more we just don't get that pushback when we talk about this. But there's typically like, have you even read First Timothy? Yes, I've read First Timothy and you have to read it in context of the entire New Testament. You can't cherry pick. And I always tell people, read the rest of that verse because it says it and women will be saved through childbirth. And so then that's the question theologically, do you believe that women aren't saved by grace, they're only saved by childbirth? Okay, so you're willing to contextualize that for whatever was being said. But you're going to take the first part as this just cut and dried as it is, no context kind of statement. And that's kind of the frustration I have when people want to throw a single verse back at what is really borne out throughout the entire New Testament as the way the church existed, elevating women into leading of this burgeoning new church. So yes, of course we've read First Timothy and we have, I would say, compelling theological and biblical reasons why we have the stance we have. [00:18:15] Speaker C: Right. [00:18:16] Speaker A: And maybe there'll be some criticism of, like. Because I feel like we were. I've heard this recently, even within our denomination of, like, can we just stop, like, talking about this? Like, we get it. We empower women, you know, And I think the point that you're making is that the narrative is still out. There is even the growth among fundamentalist Christian groups that are trying to suppress the voice of women and leadership of women. So it is important to continue to communicate this value, even if in front of our church. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, like, this isn't crazy or strange to us. Even just these little movements for everybody in the room to continue to hear that this is something that we believe in matters culturally. I think it matters not just for us, but the little neighborhood around us. So I'm with you, man. I cannot believe that there are these movements coming back from the dead, in my opinion, to. To push this back politically as a country. It seems impossible to me, but it's there, and it's a lot stronger than I gave it credit for. [00:19:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And even in the story of Ruth yesterday, what we see is in ancient times, which the norm then was so against Ruth as a person. I mean, she's a Moabite, so she's a hated foreigner. She's poor, she's widowed, she has no voice, no power. And through this story, she really is the hero of the story. But she doesn't do that alone. And so we have Boaz stepping in and lending his power and influence to elevate her. And yet we wouldn't know about Boaz if not for her. And so I think it's a picture, and I probably could have done a better job actually exploring this yesterday. It's a picture how in the kingdom of God, it isn't let's elevate women, so we've got to tear down these men. It's how do we actually submit all of our power, gender roles, identities to Christ? And then we are built back up into something that we just couldn't do. If we're clinging to whatever the cultural norm is for gender roles and how we view that, if we miss that, what we become is these fundamental groups that say, oh, actually, women should have no voice at all, or we go the other way and become a feminist theological movement. And I think that's. That skews wrong, too. So the way of Christ always invites us into something, I think different and better. But. [00:20:45] Speaker A: And I mean, you mentioned this New Testament theology. It's even through these stories, just the fact that there were authors that were creating stories that had women as the heroes or the centerpieces. Esther is another good one. That in and of itself is its own theology that tips its cap toward women in leadership and empowerment and all those things. The idea that somebody, and I think we talked about this when I preached on Esther last year or a couple of years ago, as there's a lot of belief that this story of Esther is not historic, it's not historical, it's [00:21:17] Speaker B: like written like a mythology, right? Yeah, [00:21:21] Speaker A: yeah. And in my mind, for some people, I was hearing like, so this kind of discounts this story. And I was like, it makes it better. To me, it means that somebody went out of their way to say, I'm going to write a story and guess who's going to be the hero. And through the creating of the story with Esther as the centerpiece, I am going to tell you about the nature of God. Somebody going out of their way to write what at the time would have been ridiculous is so powerful. And it tells us, it does tell us more about who God is. [00:21:52] Speaker B: And it's the thread amongst all these stories about kings and their greatness and these victories in the battlefield. We see this thread and I think it is woven into Judaism itself of the underdog, because they've been such a beaten down people since the beginning. I mean, go back to Exodus, you know, and yet we see this thread tied up in Jesus as Matthew 25, where he says, we've done for the least of these, that somehow in this kingdom which is upside down, it's always about those on the bottom. And in many stories that's women or it's widows or it's orphans or it's the poor or it's those in the margins. And that's another thing that felt yesterday like I'm just like, I just keep saying the same things over and over again. And I get kind of sick of that. I'm sure some of the church says too, but it's just like Jesus leads us to the margins. Jesus leads us to the margins over and over and over again. But I think we have to, we have to keep saying it. Otherwise what we end up doing is we just get the. We find the most comfortable life we can. And that rarely involves anyone less than us. It just doesn't like, that's not comfortable. And so we just have to keep, have to keep saying it over and over again. Sorry, church, we're going to keep on loop, right? [00:23:20] Speaker A: Oh, dude, that is literally the Thing I think about almost every time I go to preach, where I, you know, create the notes or I go through the thing in my head and I go, I've said all this before. Yeah, it's real terrifying. You know, maybe it's packaged a little different, but it's funny. That's. It's our job to make it creative and interesting and pastoral, and it's our job to say the same thing over and over and over again. [00:23:42] Speaker B: Sure. [00:23:42] Speaker A: It's a weird. It's weird. [00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:45] Speaker C: It's like worship songs. [00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:46] Speaker C: What do they say? Like, you're sick of this song, but the church is just now learning it. They are just now able to. To sing along. And we've been doing it for three months and now. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sick of this. I don't ever want to sing it again. And now they're like, what a banger. Yeah, it's. It's the same. Like, we're. These are the waters we swim in, because this is our job, you know, Sunday through Thursday, we're here talking about these things, and they're. You know, the church isn't there. You know, it's important, I think. And, yeah, he's not beating a dead horse. [00:24:18] Speaker A: A pastoral retreat. I didn't end up saying this, but it was on my mind a lot when. When we all went out to little retreat center and you led us through rule of life and a lot of things. And then we spoke to what it means to be a pastor a bit. And I did have this thought of, like, I. I don't think our job is to seek after or find all these revelations all the time. I like revelations, and that's great, but it's. It seems like more reminders than anything. Like, the ordinary, like, everyday life of a pastor and a Christian, I think is just. I'm reminded again of the goodness of God or the fallibility of myself or my own pride. I'm reminded again. And it's what we do with these little reminders that actually kind of creates this revelation that we're participating in. And that's what teaching is. That's what the worship songs are. It's so rare, but it happens. It's so rare to have this oh, whoa kind of moment. And 99% of life is built on little reminders again and again and again. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yesterday, I'm up there and talking for the 10th time in a different new message about, like, God doesn't abandon you in the valley. God doesn't abandon you. I'm like, shut up, Evan. You've said this so many times. But then. Then you sit down every week in pastoral meetings and people are like, I want to give up. I think God's abandoned me. I'm alone. I just. And so I guess, no, we have to keep saying this stuff. And you're right. It's our job to make it fresh and feel like we've done the work and we're just regurgitating things. But will there ever be a time when the church doesn't need to hear that Jesus is with them in suffering? Probably not. So here we are. [00:26:01] Speaker A: We need to not trick ourselves into believing that we have to pull some rabbit out of the hat. But that's where, I mean, that's where the cults start. That's where really poor theology happens. I think a lot of bad things happen in churches just because of bored pastors, you know, and we can't be that. We can't get bored with the reminders and the ordinary and the rhythms and the reminding people that they're not abandoned. [00:26:25] Speaker C: Or to put that pressure on yourself every week to have to have some mind blowing revelation that no one's ever thought of before. I think that puts the responsibility in the wrong place. That puts it on you as the speaker or the pastor, to have to get this word for the church or whatever. And that's the Holy Spirit's job, right? Like, we're faithful to show up day in and day out, and should the Holy Spirit drop a bomb, awesome. If not, like, we're gonna gently remind again and again of the truth of the good news of Jesus, which it is what it is. Right? Like, there's not a ton you can add to it or take away. [00:27:03] Speaker A: Do you guys ever feel kind of complicated feelings when somebody comes up and tells you that they were so impacted by a really basic thing that you said that you feel like you said so many times? [00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or when you tell a story and you know, you' told it many times before, they're like, that is. I've never heard that. That is crazy. Yeah. [00:27:22] Speaker A: I had a parent tell me this is about baseball. But I had talked to the parents, I was like, hey, just got to remind you guys, baseball is a process game. It's process driven. It's not results. You got to do. These little parent was like, I can't. That was amaz. That stuck with me. Like, two years later, he told us a bit, it's about the process. And I was like, really? That's lame and basic. [00:27:43] Speaker C: Oh my gosh. [00:27:45] Speaker B: That's what people, people remember, right? [00:27:47] Speaker A: This is important to you. And then, like, look at myself and I think about the different stories, the different ways I'm trying to approach something. And then I say, you know, it's just about the process. I'm like, well, maybe I gotta just keep saying that stuff. [00:27:59] Speaker B: The. [00:28:00] Speaker A: It seems kind of trite to me, you know, but maybe more of that. [00:28:05] Speaker C: I don't know. [00:28:06] Speaker B: I mean, the flip side, I remember sitting in a church service, not in this town, visiting a church, and the pastor got up there and he did. He probably did a full. It was like one of those churches that goes like two hours for their services. He wrote in 30 minutes on the calculations of how many angels there were at the time of creation and how now the population of the earth has grown so much that now there is one third less demons per human, so that we have more power over demonic forces because there's less of them because they don't procreate. And I'm like, even in the moment, I was like, I think this is really wacky. Like, how does this help my Christian life and following Jesus to calculate the number of demons I have to deal with based on what the biblical figure. Bonkers. But I think it's what happens when you let yourself go down that route of like, we are going to discover things that no one has ever discovered and you get into these funky, just bonkers teachings that aren't real and don't help. [00:29:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a board presser that's really been watching a lot of Indiana Jones. [00:29:13] Speaker C: How long did that math take, I wonder? [00:29:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, it's. And we've seen that with people that get really into like eschatology and end times and you're going to map everything out to current world events. And, you know, not that there's no space to really do deep dives into scripture. Of course not. But you kind of go off the deep end into like conspiracy theories and funky theology. And I think that's actually what Paul warns against a lot in the New Testament letters is there's people that are going to come in and try to teach you all kinds of wacky things. Stay with Christ. This is all about the cross. That's why he says, right, I set myself, I intend to. I'm crucified with Christ to preach Christ and Christ crucified. That's it. And as soon as you go off there, you're off in the deep end and you're Just trying to impress yourself. Yeah. And sometimes it works and you start a cult and, you know, show up on the news. [00:30:14] Speaker A: What's in that that we like so much? What's the core? [00:30:17] Speaker B: I think it's secret knowledge. It's secret knowledge and it's always been a temptation, especially when I think the Holy Spirit is poured out in Acts 2 by Acts. I'm going to get all my numbers wrong today. Six, seven. Simon the sorcerer comes up. He's like, okay, what do I got to do to buy this, this secret knowledge? You obviously have a power that I have not tapped into. How much? And that's Simony. Right. That's an actual crime in the Catholic Church because I think it's always the temptation. As soon as you see this divine presence, we're going to monetize that. We're going to make it exclusive. It's going to be so compelling. And then you get, you know, gnostic teachings that kind of interweave themselves into the church. And then you get modern day conspiracy theorists on Facebook claiming these prophecies that are going to foretell. And it's all the same temptation. And I think it is demonic to go back to the original story. Not as demonic as it might have been when there was less people around. But I'm just kidding. It's funny because I like, I like [00:31:28] Speaker A: the, like the Da Vinci Code stuff, you know, I do too. [00:31:32] Speaker C: There's something about it. [00:31:33] Speaker A: There's secrets in the painting. And I am not by. I can't remember if we talked about this on the podcast or not. I remember when that movie came out and all, there was this massive Christian response. Then I read this non Christian movie critic that was like, you guys, if you feel like this is having a big impact on your faith, I can't believe your faith is anything worth paying attention to. Because it's a movie. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:31:54] Speaker A: And it's, it's like mediocre acting and you know, you got Tom Hanks in there with weird hair and. But I like the, I like. Oh, you saw the little secret thing in the painting and then you saw it in the scripture and can you. I'm like, oh, this is so fun. [00:32:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:08] Speaker A: A little Treasure Nights. [00:32:10] Speaker B: Fun. Fiction. [00:32:10] Speaker A: It's great. It is. And it is so fiction. [00:32:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:14] Speaker A: And. But that I, I like how you, you call it secret knowledge, which we want that so bad. We want the little inroad to who I'm going to MARRY when we're 16 years old, you know, and how this is going to work out. And I just think God is so not very interested in that, in communicating these little idiosyncrasies about the future to us personally so that we can be on the inside of whatever the will of God is. It's way harder to do the will of God, which is to love one another as we've been loved. And, gosh, that's hard work. And it's so much better to have a secret note about what's going to happen when we reach college or our 40s or 50s. [00:32:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have. I feel for many who maybe feel like they don't have community or they don't have a voice, they don't have power in their life. And so this is a way to gain control and power in your own life. And if you feel out of control and powerless and voiceless, and then you go on Facebook and your algorithm feeds you this, come join this club where you can have this secret knowledge from this voice of God that's really, really seductive. And so I feel for that person who gets caught up in that. I don't think it's with bad intentions that people find this, but they get sucked into it. And it feels like that community. I think it actually puts just more pressure or more importance for us to create healthy, Jesus focused communities. And we believe in the work of the spirit and we believe in prophetic in our churches. And so we have to model that in a healthy way. Otherwise people will seek out a counterfeit of that that leads to some of the darkest corners of the Internet and life right now, you know, it's nasty stuff. [00:34:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:11] Speaker B: So speaking of the Internet, we're going to be talking about the Tower of Babel this week. And Pastor Brandt is going to be joining me. I think we're going to do a video. Maybe we'll bring him on stage. I don't know yet. What do you guys think? Probably a video. [00:34:28] Speaker C: I like. I like video. [00:34:29] Speaker B: Yeah, video. Like a little bit. Yeah. We're going to be talking about the Tower of Babel and how in our. Our current moment with AI, without getting real technical, because that would not be the right move. But talking about how you could, though, could you? Yeah, I could. [00:34:44] Speaker A: You could do it. [00:34:46] Speaker B: But we want to talk about, like, this moment that is, I would say, about as close of a direct correlation to what was happening in that story as we get, you know, in our modern age of we are building a tower to heaven with artificial intelligence. And what does that mean ethically? What does that mean for the church? What does that mean for us? As pastors and Jesus followers. All that super fascinating. [00:35:10] Speaker A: Can you spoil it for us? Is this the end of the world that you were just saying? [00:35:13] Speaker B: Well, Brandt's been in a conference all morning, so I don't even know what we're going to talk about yet. [00:35:17] Speaker A: I hope you introduce a conspiracy theory to Westside. That would be amazing. [00:35:22] Speaker B: Our very own specific to us. Was it QAnon? Was the Q? Was the. This mystical figure a few years back? We'll have our own version of that. Wow. [00:35:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:33] Speaker A: You know how fast our church would grow. [00:35:34] Speaker B: Oh. [00:35:34] Speaker A: If we had our very own conspiracy theory that gave us secret knowledge. Lindsay's becoming the associate pastor. Right. At the right time. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Oh, I thought you said sociopath. Yeah, sociopath. You're such a sociopath. [00:35:49] Speaker C: You gotta enunciate [00:35:52] Speaker A: sociopath. [00:35:55] Speaker B: No, it should be interesting. I hope it. I hope it's good. We got to figure out how to make that apply and not just be interesting information this Sunday. [00:36:02] Speaker C: Right. [00:36:03] Speaker B: But yeah. [00:36:04] Speaker A: You're the guy for the job, though. I think Lindsey and I Both agree. [00:36:07] Speaker C: Yep. 100% glad it's you're not me. [00:36:09] Speaker A: The whole conversation is intriguing to me, certainly at a. The cultural level and. Yeah. The morals and I'm. I'm into that. There's so much knowledge I just don't have around how it's going and where it's going and how fast. I'm very much like, hanging on it with. With all my might to the coattails of this thing and being like, oh, it's kind of like a fun Google search, isn't it? This is great. [00:36:35] Speaker B: This is like Lycos. [00:36:37] Speaker A: People are like, I'm powering my car with this stuff. [00:36:40] Speaker B: It was like pre Google, you had like Netscape. I remember Lycos. Ask Jeeves. Guys. [00:36:49] Speaker A: That was marketed so stinking well. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:52] Speaker A: How did it fall off so fast, I wonder? I mean, Google. [00:36:57] Speaker B: Yeah. The implications for medical advance and [00:37:05] Speaker A: all [00:37:05] Speaker B: kinds of hunger, crop production. There are so many aspects when you combine the power of artificial intelligence and quantum computing and then aim that at major diseases, like, what a time to be alive. That is amazing. And then you look at the other side of it when we are just giving up our humanity because now we can have machines that do that for us. I think the Pope was talking about in his now famous, what, 500 pages, 300 pages on AI that he issued a couple weeks ago, how the danger is not that that machines become too human. Like, it's that humans become too much like machines and that we lose our humanity in this process and I would say, lose our ability to be the stuff that actually connects to our faith and connects to Christ. Because that even, like I said this yesterday, you know, we can't outsource or delegate our relationship with Jesus, which means we have to be with the least of these. And I would say when it comes to the future of technology, like, we can never outsource those parts of us that are the parts that need the mercy of Christ and the healing of the cross. And the promise of AI, I think, is the promise that we won't have to deal with all that stuff that is limiting and makes us powerless and feels like failure. And it's actually all those things. That's where Christ meets us. So what a dangerous, what a dangerous time to be alive when we're gonna, we're gonna actually eliminate all the things that make us human and in so doing, have no, no place to meet Jesus at the foot of the cross. [00:38:57] Speaker A: I don't worry about that. I, I, that is a worry. I, maybe I'm a little optimistic. I feel like human connection and touch is the ultimate drug. And I don't think we, you know, individually, sure. I think as a group, I don't think we'll ever abandon that. And I see little things that give me hope for that. Like Christopher Nolan made the Odyssey that's coming out this summer. And it's like Practical Effects is shot all in imax, you know, the first thing. And it's like this massive epic of a. And people like, the groundswell of excitement about this. It is like one of the first times like, like, people made this movie and only people. And they, like, built stuff and then they broke it. You know, how cool is that? And I'm like, oh, yeah, we're gonna do this. I think, I think we, we aren't necessarily headed just straight into this vat of disgust, like, Idiocracy, the movie. You know, I, I think there's this human resiliency, and the next frontier will be to, like, not defeat the robots, but it will be to connect again as human beings. I just think that's so, it's so in there. I don't know that we can quit that. Maybe I'm being too optimistic. [00:40:16] Speaker B: I mean, that's very optimistic, and I hope you're right. But what you just described is true and also is the premium now that is on movies with practical effects, because no one does it anymore. [00:40:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:28] Speaker B: And do we get to a space where true human connection, free from the reliance on machines, now becomes the premium? The thing that is so special that you never see that anymore. So we're pay extra for a real hug. We're going to pay extra to connect with a human because we've lost the natural way. We've lost those rhythms. What do you think, Lindsay? Optimist, pessimist. [00:40:56] Speaker C: I'm always an optimist, but I do think, what do we have to go through first before we get to that place? [00:41:02] Speaker A: And I will say I think we'll have to go through something. [00:41:05] Speaker C: Yeah. I think we're going to get to a place where it's like, oh, we've lost our souls. And so we come back to human connection. You know, the pendulum always swings, you guys. It always swings. And so I think we have to walk through some really hard stuff and learn the hard way to really come out on the other side and remember our humanity. [00:41:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I think we'll have to bottom out in a way, culturally. Yeah. [00:41:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:31] Speaker A: Probably irony is that I just felt for so long like the church was not necessary for a while. Like all this thing that we do and how we gather and a lot of the stuff we were talking about before, like, it's just this repetition of stuff. And how could it continue to hold cultural value with all that we have in the discotheque. [00:41:51] Speaker B: We have all these places, the church. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Now it feels like we're going to be on like the corner of the market to connect. [00:42:04] Speaker B: Sure. [00:42:05] Speaker A: That there. That church could be a place that people walk into. And some of it feels almost nostalgic because it's this connecting in a way that we don't connect as much in the future. And I don't know. I think there's. I think we're going to win over this. I think the human spirit will triumph ultimately. But I agree it'll. It'll be dragged through the mud quite a bit. And I hope we get some of these incredible breakthroughs along the way. You know, I think about my dad with Parkinson's right now, and there's this little bit of hope where I go, could this happen in the next couple years? That's. That's a hope that I don't ever have in my life. And AIs kind of brought that in some ways, like, that's cool cancer. Like, it all actually feels like it's on the table to me to be cured. So I don't want to throw that away. [00:42:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:54] Speaker A: I don't know if there's a parallel to that. And Tower Babel the story seems to me like everyone thought it was good and it was actually really, really bad. And I think AI is more complicated than that. [00:43:05] Speaker B: Mm, yeah. Yeah. And I don't want to overstate, you know, like, that this is another technology, and technology has come before that feels like it's earth shaking. And it is. You know, the printing press shows up and takes Europe out of the Middle Ages, you know, into what, the Renaissance or whatever. Because of the power of. Of the written word, being able to be mass produced, like, changes the world, it feels like. I would say that's what this feels like. Is that level of Earth changing tech as much or more as when the Internet came along? As much or more as when automobiles? You know, like every generation there's these major advances. This feels a little different from where I'm sitting. We'll see. But it does feel different. So we'll see. But I think we do have a job to pay attention as leaders, as pastors, caring for souls in the middle of this, because the tech will move so much faster than the speed of humanity. We're a slow biological mess that we process at a certain speed. All this is moving way faster than that. And that's, I think, where we are in danger of losing ourselves in it. [00:44:27] Speaker A: And the overarching scariness of who's in control of all this stuff. It's like the conversation we had about Christian nationalism. Like, okay, Christian nationalism sounds maybe great to you on the surface. Whose version of this are we talking about? Okay, AI, all the progress tech. All right, who's AI and what's actually at the core of this, and what person is benefiting the most? Those things scare me. And that will certainly be part of the bottoming out process, I'm sure. [00:44:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. That's frightening. You know, like, if it's the people that are. Are in charge of the AI platforms that end up with all the power, nobody shows them, you know, Sam Altman a benevolent overlord? I don't think so. But at some point does it become whoever controls these crazy machines, control everything. [00:45:21] Speaker A: And then we learn that it's Evan the whole time behind the. [00:45:24] Speaker B: It's like Scooby Doo Mastering. [00:45:26] Speaker A: Evan Earwicker, [00:45:31] Speaker B: Sam Altman on the weekends. Fascinating if it wasn't for you, but yeah. Aliens, extraterrestrials. What do you guys think? [00:45:40] Speaker C: Wow. [00:45:41] Speaker B: I mean, what's the theology of if we discover life outside of Earth, not just life, but intelligent life. [00:45:48] Speaker A: Are we still talking about theology? [00:45:50] Speaker B: Well, we're talking about, you know, and [00:45:53] Speaker A: if we're just talk. [00:45:54] Speaker B: If anything's going to. If anything's going to make advancements that would allow us to look deeper into this cosmos. It's going to be quantum computing and AI and all this. So what happens if we find intelligent life somewhere? Does that shake any theology, or is there room for it? [00:46:14] Speaker A: Lindsay, and go first, you be a heretic first. [00:46:19] Speaker C: Oh, man. I plead the fifth. I don't know. Well, no, I plead the fifth. [00:46:28] Speaker A: I fall for. So this actually works for me. I actually like our theology, and I like God more whenever I listen to conversations with people smarter than me that talk about the size and the vastness of the universe, and eventually, you can correct me if I'm wrong. The conclusion that they all draw because of the calculations that they're doing and how far they can see and all this, they go, well, there's just so much. There has to be something else out there. And I go, I can get them more of that. Like, you do the math. There's all these things and all these planets. Of course, there's got to be one out there with intelligent life. I gotta believe. And that does not in any way offend my Christian faith, for whatever reason. That's. I. That was part of growing up too. Like, well, if there's aliens and that mean, like, the Bible isn't true, or Jesus said. I'm like, why is that? That isn't. I don't know that that plays into that at all. And I'm also not hardcore about it, where I'm like, yeah, there's aliens out there. I'm like, I don't know. [00:47:25] Speaker C: Who knows your secret YouTube channel? [00:47:28] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, that's right. I've been publishing. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. I tend to think that. And maybe this is like, [00:47:39] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:47:39] Speaker B: I don't want to. I don't want to be a heretic. [00:47:41] Speaker C: That's why I pled the fifth. [00:47:43] Speaker A: Wait, was I theretic? [00:47:44] Speaker B: I don't think so, no. Okay, good. But I tend to think that the story of God is given to us through the Bible is our story. It's not somebody else's story. It's not the story of places outside of the earth that God has placed us in and on. And so I don't know that there's a theological problem. Unless you are clinging to kind of like the biblical writer's view of what the universe entails in a literal scientific measurement, then I think you run into some problems. If you're willing to let that go and realize that when they're talking about the universe, they're talking about all that can be known, all that, and all that humanity will ever grasp, then I think it holds up that there could be other civilizations and that the God of the universe would reveal himself in those places as he has revealed himself through Jesus here. I don't know why that would be a problem. Unless you're saying, like, nope. When David writes a psalm about all the Earth, he's actually referring to all the planets, too. And I don't. I don't know. [00:48:52] Speaker A: But, yeah, that was a way better of saying what I thought in my head. So that's good. [00:48:56] Speaker B: But it's not unlike the, you know, was it Galileo got burned at the stake for believing that the sun was at the center of our solar system? [00:49:05] Speaker A: Yes. [00:49:06] Speaker B: And it's those things where I think you cling to them and tell you don't. And then you realize, like, oh, actually, the Bible is not in competition with that totally truth, you know? And I do feel like, you know, whether there's extraterrestrial intelligent life or not, and whether we discover that in our lifetimes or not, I don't know. I think the Bible does just fine. And our faith is just fine. [00:49:28] Speaker A: We talk about this infinite God, and so if that tracks, then you could have infinite universes, and there is God too. You know, it's. It's on the same. The same space. I will admit that anytime we do talk about, like, space and stuff, I get so confused about what we can and can't do or what we have done. They show us these pictures of, like, these galaxies so far, and I'm like, oh, yeah. Like, we're. We're out there, and they're like, oh, we can't send anybody to Mars. That's. I'm like, we haven't seen anybody. We haven't seen the back side of the moon. What that just happened. I thought that was a long time. What? And I. My timelines are all messed up. I don't know what we can do, what we're great at and what we're not. Sometimes seems like we're really far. Other times I'm like, I don't know. Mars should have been yesterday. [00:50:12] Speaker B: I remember when I figured out the space station only like, a mile and a half away from us. It's just, like, right up there, just barely. Like, if you're driving your car straight up, you'd be there in about 15 minutes. Like, it is not far. [00:50:24] Speaker A: All this Artemis stuff was going on, and I was like, isn't this. Well, haven't we done this before? Isn't this. Everybody was into it and it did not hit me like I've learned that it really should have. [00:50:36] Speaker B: That's so funny. [00:50:37] Speaker A: I'm sorry. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Fascinating. Yeah. [00:50:38] Speaker A: The space people out there. [00:50:40] Speaker C: That's great. [00:50:42] Speaker B: Well, this has been a wide ranging conversation. We talked about secret knowledge, talked about aliens and AI. [00:50:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:54] Speaker B: Wow. Good show. [00:50:56] Speaker C: I like it a lot. Yeah. Do it again next week. [00:50:59] Speaker B: Women in Minnesota. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Aliens is a pretty great picture. [00:51:02] Speaker B: I'm really proud of. We're not. We're not actually trying to correlate the two. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Right. [00:51:06] Speaker B: Like, let's talk about all the craziest stuff you've ever heard of. Aliens, quantum physics, AI and women leading. Of course not. [00:51:15] Speaker C: Of course not. [00:51:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:18] Speaker A: Well, congrats, Lindsay. [00:51:19] Speaker C: Thanks. [00:51:20] Speaker B: Glad to have you in this new role. [00:51:22] Speaker C: Thanks. Me too. It's exciting. [00:51:24] Speaker A: Yeah. It's lucky to have you. [00:51:27] Speaker B: We're lucky to have us. [00:51:28] Speaker A: This podcast. [00:51:32] Speaker B: I think he's trying to fill up the remaining 14 seconds.