Small Talk

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I'm Ben Fleming. And I'm Ebony Ehrweriker. [00:00:19] Speaker A: We're joined again by Lindsay, who was gone last week. Gwen was with us. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Woohoo. [00:00:24] Speaker C: Go, Gwen, go. [00:00:25] Speaker A: She refused to be on camera or a microphone. [00:00:27] Speaker B: She's in the room right now. [00:00:28] Speaker C: She expects that. I respect that. [00:00:31] Speaker A: You do. [00:00:32] Speaker C: I'm jealous of that option. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Whatever. You've been here too long, Lindsay. You don't have to be on camera. Yep. Maybe, Gwen, we could have you just walk through the frame so that people know that you're here. You're welcome to at any time. [00:00:50] Speaker A: She doesn't move. [00:00:52] Speaker B: She gave him a thumbs up. She said, sure. This is the response I get from most of the people that work here at the church is a thumbs up. Yeah, whatever you say, man. [00:01:00] Speaker A: That's what you get. [00:01:01] Speaker B: And they ignore me. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Do they do the eyebrows too? Like a really aggressive eyebrow? [00:01:05] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. You said something funny yesterday about your facial expression when you're making small talk that your upper lip disappears. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people talked to me about that after service, and every one of them made the joke like, oh, your lip's going up right now. And I was like, oh, no, I'm enjoying this conversation. [00:01:26] Speaker B: That is so funny. [00:01:28] Speaker A: I did. I went hard on that dynamic of being at a party or in a room with somebody that you're just not that excited to see and talk with. That I think is pretty relatable for all of us. I hope so. [00:01:40] Speaker B: I think that. Yeah, of course. Of course there's people. The small talk thing is a funny one to me, though. I'm not real naturally gifted at good small talk. You're great at it. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:01:52] Speaker B: I think you were leaning into this leave me alone vibe. Make your point yesterday. [00:01:57] Speaker A: Sure. [00:01:57] Speaker B: But let's be honest. You're really great around people and even small talk. [00:02:02] Speaker A: I like doing it. I'm trying to relate to the natural piece of me that's like, all on my own. Left to my own devices, I would not be seeking out community and whatever. That's the unhealthy version of me. I see the benefit of it and so I try to get better at it and care about it, but it's not a natural leaning. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Last week I was in the front office and Christina Madrigal, who's one of our kids directors, was in there like cutting paper or something. And so I was doing something on the copier and we had just been talking about, like, ages that kids learn to read or something. Anyway, and so there's this big, long lull, and then I go, so, Christina, how old were you when you learned to read? And great comedic timing. She pauses, and she looks over at me and goes, you don't have to talk to me. It was, like, permission to not have to do the painful small talk thing. And. And then as I was leaving, she's like, it's okay. I'm bad at small talk too. I thought it was so good. [00:03:06] Speaker A: She's like, evan, I understand. Please, please don't hear me. [00:03:10] Speaker B: We can just do our separate work in silence. It's totally fine. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Did you guys. The conversation just stop right there? [00:03:17] Speaker B: It did, yeah. We didn't really. If either of us had the skills to keep it going, we would have kept talking, but. Yeah. No, it was funny. Yeah. [00:03:25] Speaker A: That's amazing. [00:03:27] Speaker B: You don't have to talk to me. [00:03:29] Speaker A: We should get her on the podcast. That'd be great. [00:03:31] Speaker B: We should. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:32] Speaker B: No, she's hilarious. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Lindsey. Small talk. [00:03:35] Speaker C: I don't enjoy it because I feel like I'm bad at it. [00:03:40] Speaker B: Is it a loss? [00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:41] Speaker B: So it's tricky. Is it, like, a lost skill? Did people used to be better at this prior to, like, texting and things? [00:03:47] Speaker A: Good question. [00:03:47] Speaker B: Good question. [00:03:48] Speaker C: I feel like I used to be good at it when I worked in youth ministry. I was great at it. But you had to be. [00:03:53] Speaker A: You're meeting new kids because of the exercise of it. [00:03:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And you. You had to make the kid feel comfy and, like, you have to remember their name and all that stuff. And I. Yeah, it's a muscle I don't possess anymore. I would have asked how people were when they learned to read, too. [00:04:09] Speaker B: I thought back in youth ministry days that I was pretty good at engaging kids, but then I would go to, like, campus visits at Mountain View, and I would see. I would see core kids that were in my group actively avoid eye contact with me. And I'm like, maybe I'm not as good as I thought. Like, taking a different path to not, you know, run into me, but it's fun. [00:04:33] Speaker A: I really enjoy you in conversation, though. Am I missing something that everybody else. [00:04:37] Speaker B: I don't know, that we. Yeah. Once things get rolling, that's not small talk anymore. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Sure. [00:04:41] Speaker B: I think it's the small talk thing, specifically, when you're just like, so, what'd you do this weekend? Yeah. [00:04:47] Speaker A: And you and I don't really. Small talk. No, really. If we do it, we jump out of it. Pretty quick. And there's some to take care of or a joke that we're combining on or something like that. Maybe it's like the mutual respect about the small talk. Maybe Christina's the mvp. Really? [00:05:01] Speaker B: Probably just to have, you know, to have the spine to be like, no, I will not engage in small talk. [00:05:07] Speaker A: We're not doing this. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Parties specifically, though, like, big gatherings. I. For some reason, I almost feel extra trapped somehow at those things. Cause it's like, well, you know that. I know that I'm gonna be here for the next couple hours, and if you decide to camp out by, it's over for me. I've got nothing. [00:05:25] Speaker B: I remember Steve Mickle always had a strategy. Cause he's famously introverted around here. He was very much an introverted. [00:05:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:33] Speaker A: I think almost all of us are introverted in this room. Steve is like 10x all of us, I think. [00:05:38] Speaker B: And he does well to, like. He pushes himself out of that to be engaging. But at parties, he would always say, my trick is I go to the drink table, and I stand right at the beginning of the drink table. Cause then people will come up to me, but they have something to do. So it's a quick interaction that then has a natural end to it. And I thought the fact that you thought through that. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:06:00] Speaker B: Tells me how much of an introvert you are. But it's smart. You know, it gives you a touch point without being like, oh, no, I'm trapped in a corner with this person. [00:06:09] Speaker A: And people kind of have to move on. Right. Because you got to get your thing and get out of the way so other people can come in there. So if you take the one. Oh, genius. [00:06:15] Speaker B: Smart. What a guy. [00:06:17] Speaker A: That's Steve Mickle. [00:06:18] Speaker B: My wife is on the other end of it, where I can tell that a conversation is done. Like, we'll be talking to somebody, and I'll watch her have a conversation with somebody, and I can tell they want out of it. And then the conversation closes, and it's like, oh, that's a good point. And the person's going to leave, turning. And then Alyssa will be like, so do you ever do takeout anywhere? Should just re engage. And I'm like, they want it out. They have the out. [00:06:47] Speaker A: You were there, crossed the finish line, and you pulled him back out of the race. Oh, that's amazing. [00:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [00:06:54] Speaker A: Alyssa's pretty introverted too, right? How does that work with both of you? [00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think she's so motivated by doing the right thing that she'll be Whatever she needs to be to meet the moment. Whereas, you know, people of lesser character will just be like, no, I don't want to sacrifice anything for this conversation. [00:07:15] Speaker A: So I have respect for those people. Like the non competition, completely not codependent person that's like, no, I don't need this to work for you and me. [00:07:23] Speaker B: I don't need you to like me. That kind of person. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Oh, man. I'm not more jealous of anybody in this world than those people because I have a fair amount of codependency. And you really notice it when I cross crosswalks, as I will be with my dog. You know, it'll be fairly quiet, but I'll see a couple cars come in, and the timing might be about right. I will turn around with my dog and walk back 30ft so that the timing is not. I don't want a car to stop for me. And then when they do stop, I'm like, I am so sorry. Like, every time it's a crosswalk I should be able to cross. And I sit there and I'm thinking about the feelings of the driver who's clearly not bothered by the fact that they had to stop. [00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker A: And I do that in conversations. I do that in all kinds of things where I'm like, oh, I really just want this stretch of highway to feel good for you, and I don't need it to feel good for me. So dumb. [00:08:13] Speaker B: High value for me too. On not being a bother. And honestly, not imposing anything on strangers. [00:08:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:21] Speaker B: You know, so traveling, this really affects how we travel. You never want to come off like the tourist, not because they think poorly of you, but because I don't want to impose my foreignness on their normal life. [00:08:33] Speaker A: That is at the front of mine every trip that we take, especially internationally. And that was something that I discovered midway through our marriage basically, was that growing up, somehow I'd come to the conclusion that the biggest compliment that you could pay to someone that you loved was that you didn't need anything from them. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:54] Speaker A: And I kind of functioned that way inside of community of, yeah, I'm gonna be here. And the way that you guys will like me and I'll actually be the highest functioning person that you want to have on your team is that I will just disappear and you won't hear a single request from me. And that's such a funky way to live in community. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Because it backfires on you over time in lots of different ways. [00:09:21] Speaker B: And it's because I'm the same way. And it's not Actually, the highest form that you can be. It's not like the most generous is to be the one that never relies on anyone. That's actually kind of selfish to say, I'm never gonna need anything from you that kind of sets you up in this, like, untouchable, I'm fine without you kind of posture towards community. And that's actually kind of mean. Right. [00:09:48] Speaker A: And I think that was what I was trying to touch on through some of those stories in the sermon yesterday, was you guys. We were called to be in a unified community. And this idea of individualism and independence, actually, it doesn't help. Creates strength for all of us. It actually creates a serious amount of weakness. And it comes from this arrogant standpoint. Right. Where you do start to create little islands among ourselves, and we don't ask for help or we don't experience community in that way. And it's a huge detriment. Who wants to be living in each one of us in 1/100th of a strengthened, unified community when we could all be a part of that whole? [00:10:29] Speaker B: Yeah. And that takes your first point. Humility. Humility is the key to community. And I think it was Henri Nouwen that said, forgiveness is the pillar of community. And I feel like forgiveness, humility, all of it is saying, I am deficient by myself, and so I need you. And until we can get there, we do settle for 1/100th of what we could be walking in, because all we have is ourselves. And I think I know, naturally, for me, I would rather fail at something than ask for help. Yeah, for sure. I'd rather wander lost, you know, around a new city for a whole day, stop and ask somebody for directions. I'd rather. And what a stupid way to try to exist, right? Like, what. What am I proving to anyone? [00:11:19] Speaker A: Because if I'm lost all day, at least at the very end I can go. Well, you know, but now I've got to lay at the land. And I understand. I've seen incredible things actually, along my failure. You don't understand. It's all intentional. It's all on purpose. Yeah. [00:11:32] Speaker B: No, we're. And isn't it true that, like, the self help thing is, like, it's baked into us as I think even like American ethos. Right. Is this individual. All of our heroes are lone rangers and, you know, do it on our own. [00:11:49] Speaker A: And the way that we help other people that aren't in that spot is to just show them how we did it and then say, good luck. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:11:56] Speaker A: And it even comes out in Those things, you're like, well, I suffered in this way. And so the younger generation should suffer in the same way. We should just continue this cycle of, no, I'm going to give you just a little nugget. And then you have to go off all on your own and be the strong person that I imagine myself to be. And it doesn't usually build communities as much as it maybe builds a single individual that can then repeat the same process. But the church is after something else. Right. Even in the word church. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And you did a great job tying last week's message, which was about the function of grace, into how Paul does it in the passage. Right. But takes it from grace into community because there's a danger that we receive grace on an individual level, have our own personal relationship with Jesus, and then it stops there. And Paul said, that's not the point of this. You weren't saved for your own individuality. You were saved into this community where everybody's needed. [00:12:53] Speaker A: And what a. I even said it, and I kind of regretted it in the moment, but I was like, yeah, this grace leads us into this work. And I was like, ah, that's not it. That's not good theology. But Paul is inviting us into that because now we have experienced this grace, we can also experience humility and then be lifted up in community together. And like, it's hard to not say for the Gentile community that is now, at least in theory, reconciled to the Jewish community. It's hard to not say that. That's an incredible amount of work, especially for them. It's so living in such close, tight quarters and having the long history that they've had. It's one thing for me to look out on the congregation yesterday and say, yeah, we got Republicans and Democrats and we've got West Siders and East Sider. What they're dealing with is a long history of really severe dark relationship and racism and hierarchy. And if unity can be forged through all those things as Paul thought it could, then that's the same miracle as just about anything else we've seen in all of Scripture. Right? [00:13:53] Speaker B: Sure. [00:13:53] Speaker A: That's incredible. The work of the heart that's done in that. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Yeah. And the immediacy of the tension that is present in these churches that Paul is speaking to. I don't know that we have a good gauge for that. We live in not a very diverse corner of our country, and so we're aware of racial tensions that are still very much present in culture today, but they are a little bit removed from us. And even as you were speaking yesterday, I was thinking, we don't have a good way to empathize with the level of tension that Paul is addressing. It would be comparable to, like, right now saying these words, you know, to a Ukrainian and a Russian saying, you have to get on the same page, or Israeli and a Gazan. It's that level of animosity that they're dealing with in real time. And we kind of step back and we're like, well, we can see racial tensions are real, but we're just a little bit less involved in that struggle and those realities than what Paul is writing to. And when you understand how, I guess, hostile these groups are and that they're kind of crunched all together in these small cities, and they're trying to figure out, like, how do we survive as enemies? And now Paul's coming in saying, okay, the hostility is broken down. You guys, all together as a building, bricks and mortar stuck together. All of that is like. It's not just a challenging thought. It's like, oh, no, what are we going to do? [00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah. And do you think that's why Paul then leads into some of these. I gotta come up with a better word to say it at the end of the book in chapters five and six, where it's almost like housekeeping kind of stuff, like, he wants to lay a few ground rules. Do you think it mostly relates back to, like, we need a few things to just kind of rally around and say, yeah, our community is going to be about these few things, and they're practical. It's not just as beautiful as it is that we've all been invited into this environment of grace. But now I'm going to guide you through a few things because so many things are up in the air. And I told the story again this last week about how we came to communion every weekend because your idea, like, we need something that's a tradition, that's holy, that nobody's going to argue with us about, because we were fighting over everything during the pandemic, and it was like, no, we're going to hold on to this and say, this is good. Yes. Everybody agree? Good. We're doing this all the time. Do you think that's kind of it? He's trying to create a little bit of a center of gravity in their culture at the time so that they can just move forward when maybe they're in a stalemate. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Yeah. It feels like that's his pastoral calling coming through. He's not only a theologian writing these grand statements about the nature of God. He's also trying to pastor these young churches and trying to give them things that they can come around, and that creates order. And if you read through a lot of Paul's writings, structure and order within the church is a high priority of his. I think that's his pastoral side coming out, because he realizes that these are like young baby Christians. There's no real model for this. Everything's brand new. And if they're just left to kind of figure it out, I think Paul knows it's going to be generations of crazy mess and chaos before they can get to some kind of functioning. And so he's trying to insert. I think he's trying to insert pastoral care and instruction into this setting to say, okay, there's a lot of ways we could go about it, but here's how we're going to do it. And this is going to give you enough structure so that you can keep focusing on the main things and not be just completely distracted by trying to figure out, like, who's doing what and where is this going to happen and what do we do for worship and what do we do for communion. And he's laying out some guidelines, I think, out of necessity, because they're coming from a clean slate. Starting everything for the first time, Right? Yeah. [00:17:52] Speaker A: So you got to get the ball rolling. You got to kind of get the car started and pushed and headed in some kind of a direction. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:57] Speaker A: I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense, and that helps overall with our understanding of scripture in the New Testament, especially the writings of Paul, is so much of it is around. How can we possibly be unified? It seems like an impossible task. And if it's hard for us right now in the United States, again in that context, in that situation back then, I can't imagine how daunting that would be. And maybe it goes back to that. What was that metaphor that Brian Zahnd or I know Steve used it a few times of playing guitar. And if you want to be a great guitar player, you got to learn the scales. And eventually, when you watch the Jimi Hendrixes of the world, it's just pure art. It's flowing from their souls, and we can get there. We can get to this beautiful art outpouring. You got to start with the scales first, and then it's math first, and then it turns into art. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And the spiritual practices are that. Right. I don't think we bring spiritual practices into our rhythms for their own sake. I think we're trying to train ourselves to Respond certain ways to stresses. We're training ourselves to go to a place of contemplative prayer instead of fill in the blank, anger, lust, resentment, frustration, whatever. And it's those training of, here's what I do with scripture, and here's electio divina, and here's prayer that creates us in the kind of people, that then out of us flows this music, aroma, whatever metaphor you want to use. But, Lindsay, you just graduated yesterday Saturday, but yes, with a master's degree in spiritual formation. So you're actually the expert now on all things spiritual formation. [00:19:44] Speaker C: Yikes. [00:19:44] Speaker B: But talk to us about how spiritual formation is those scales that form us into something. [00:19:50] Speaker C: Yeah, it's exactly what you were saying. Actually, I was nodding my head furiously. Back here I had a professor who called it off the spot training for on the spot training. And he used the story of Les Mis to kind of drill that home. So there's, forgive me, I don't know all the names, but there's the priest who takes in Jean Valjean. And Jean Valjean decides to steal a bunch of stuff and leaves. And there's a woman who catches him, et cetera, et cetera. And the priest, in a split second says, no, you forgot these two. And he piles a bunch of gold and candlesticks and things in Jean Valjean's bag in front of the police, kind of setting Jean Valjean up for success. But the focus of the story was on the priest and what must have been going on in him to just so quickly move to generosity and forgiveness. And it was all of the off the spot training that that priest had done. He compared it to athletes who practice drills day after day after day so that when they're in the big game, the free throws come easily, the stamina is there. And so spiritual disciplines, that's what that is in us. It is training us. So when my flight is delayed hour after hour after after hour, my response would hopefully be graciousness. [00:21:11] Speaker A: Is this a theoretical. [00:21:12] Speaker C: It literally happened to me yesterday. But I want to get angry and I want to yell at the poor lady behind the counter and do all those things. But spiritual disciplines are doing something inside of me where my knee jerk reaction is now going to be graciousness. How can I help? You know, that did not happen Sunday. I'm not there yet, you guys. But that's a good example of something, you know, you're in traffic. What's your reflex gonna be? So that's exactly what spiritual disciplines do. [00:21:43] Speaker A: And we don't think about it that way for Some reason, I think somewhere along the path, the spiritual formation pieces, the practice elements, somehow got dressed up as the thing that saves you. Right? And I don't think any spiritual formation person would say that of course this is still centered around Jesus. But like the athlete, right, it's the football player does deadlifts and, and squats and bench press. Not because they're going to deadlift and squat and bench press on the field. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Right? [00:22:14] Speaker A: It's a preparation that then lends itself to the other movements to make them more natural in an on the fly environment. I like that framing. [00:22:22] Speaker B: And I think the holistic angle is what we're going for, that our spiritual life should be holistic. It should include all elements of our experience. And so it includes our intellect, it includes our study, includes our body, it includes what we do and all this stuff. And I know there's been backlash against the contemplative practices from some corners of evangelical world. As though, like it's some, I don't know, overly mystical interpretation of faith, as though an intellectual first only study, no feelings involved, is somehow better. And I'm thinking, can't we do both? Can't we have our intellect brought alongside our physical body and the space that we live in? And can't we experience holistic Christianity and follow Christ with everything we are? Obviously many, many people believe that, but whenever I hear that push against bringing contemplative ways into our faith, I'm like, why not? Why can't we bring everything? Why can't we meditate on scripture while we're also doing prayer walks? And you know, I don't know, I'm rambling now, but make it holistic. This is an embodied faith that we should be living in. Historically it was. And when we move away from that into just this intellectual understanding only, we've become experts in theology, but we never put it into practice. I think we've missed. [00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's that my therapist telling me, you don't come here so that I can help make you happy all the time. You come here so that we can frame the whole spectrum of emotions and help you understand how you are functioning with those things. And maybe some things that you're suffering, suffocating, and some things that you're overindulging in, but all of it belongs. The sorrow and the tears and the pain and the victory and the joy and the surprise is all part of the thing. And you see this in the fitness world all the time. It's so funny to watch pop fitness chase its tail all the Time, it's like, oh, CrossFit's the only thing. It's cross training, high cardio, lifting weights at the same time. Then it comes down. It's like, you guys know that the high cardio is actually really bad for you. And this is why. Because your body goes into fight or flight mode and you see this rotation around. It's like, you should walk, you should jog, you should run, you should lift heavy, you should lift light. Lots of reps, and it just kind of goes around and around. And I'm with you. I'm going, why can't all of these things fit into the cycle of this? It seems like they all have a place that maybe we all shouldn't run ourselves in the ground, and maybe we shouldn't all purely only drink protein shakes and lift as heavy as we can every day. There's something more nuanced and beautiful in this journey. [00:25:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And for, you know, as leaders, I think, like, I think there is a responsibility for us to model. Holistic health, spiritual, physical, emotional, relational, all that has to come into play. You can't be like, man, that person is a spiritual giant and they are sick and tired and the relationships have all failed and they're emotionally a mess. But they know theology, like, so what? Right. It is the holistic thing that hopefully we're going after in the following Jesus. [00:25:40] Speaker A: And that's my hope for our church as we go through this scripture, is not that they would find their little bit that they are already kind of attached to their pet theology or whatever and hold onto that and then sprint with it all the way to the finish line again. That's where the humility comes in of, can we see how Paul is trying to complete the circle for this unified community in a way that it never has been before. And he uses a lot of different tacts in order to get that done. And that is our goal as leaders, like you said. It's a tough task, by the way, even just going to preach unity. I was like, this is so. There's so many little offshoots. And sometimes when you talk about unity, it sounds like cultish kind of language, you know, like, we needed you. We're a family. And, you know, all these things that you've heard in so many places, to do unity and to do it in a healthy way with an actually diverse background of people, it's really, really hard, it turns out. [00:26:35] Speaker B: And that distinction between uniformity and unity is important because uniformity taken to the extreme is a cult. Right? Where everyone has to say, the same thing at the same time, believe the same thing, act the same way. And then you go into the real dark stuff and it gets really crazy and evil. And so uniformity is not the goal. It is unity. It is bringing all these diverse skills and talents and backgrounds and understandings all together in one body, the body of Christ, and appreciating that there's differences and appreciating that I have some things that are strong in me and some things that are not. And so to be holistically well myself, I'm going to need you and I'm going to need the community, because I don't have those strengths emotionally or relationally or I can't small talk. So I need you to. But no, we only need each other. And I think that's what we're getting at. Right. [00:27:34] Speaker A: And uniformity just wants the pound of flesh that says, I'm bought in. I'm all the way here. Right. And that's such a shallow way to approach, especially church. But unity encourages exactly what you're saying, that diversity of skill and thought and background. And that is what Jesus is really after in the building of the church. And what I think Paul is after in taking on this. It could have been so much easier for Paul Wright to say, all right, well, we're just gonna have the Jewish church, we're gonna have the Gentile church, and they'll kind of keep these funny little customs, but they'll all be under Jesus. God bless them. Hopefully never cross each other on the street, because that could be dangerous. It would have been so much easier in a lot of ways. But the beautiful thing is this. [00:28:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And it makes you wonder what Paul would think about all the divisions within the Christian tradition now. And we're thousands of years on and quite a rough track record of unity. And you sit here on this end of the. You have all these schisms throughout the church history, the big ones. And you have Catholics and Orthodox, and then you have the Protestant Reformation. Those are the big ones. But then even within those, you have all these splits and Protestant denominations in the thousands. Right. And there's good reasons for that. I can look at on this side of it and be like, well, there's a reason why we preach and behave this way and the church across town doesn't. And. And it's easier that way. And I'm not advocating for us to merge with all the other churches in town. I wouldn't want that. But I wonder what Paul would say. [00:29:09] Speaker A: To all this separatism, especially with a Lot of the separation coming as a result of arguing over Paul's works, right. With his core of unity in the middle of all these teachings, to have us really fighting and arguing about things that I think in a lot of cases he would consider peripheral or contextual. And he would look at the church today and go, you guys, that was not. That wasn't the point that I was trying to make. I was trying to bring you guys together, trying to bring them together. And this seems a little extreme to be fighting over xyz. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And the humility, I think, that you referenced yesterday is the key. Because when I realize, hey, I'm going to get to heaven and realize I was wrong on a lot of stuff, maybe more than half of the stuff I'm going to be wrong about, and if that's the case, then maybe it gives me a little bit more grace for, you know, leader down the road that is so passionate about something that I think is just terrible, you know, that's terrible theology. And you're so passionate about it. Ugh, Maybe I have a little bit more humility, but I'm probably pretty passionate about things I'm wrong on too. [00:30:15] Speaker A: Is it worth it to continue on if, you know, all the quote, unquote, bad people are going to be there too? Right. That was kind of the question. Posed like a party, sounds great. Drinks, food, atmosphere, music, all awesome. For me, if I have to be with people that I'm not really wanting to be with, it kind of ruins the whole thing. And that could be the temptation with Christianity, say, oh, my gosh, Jesus, amazing grace. Awesome. I'm totally in. You have to do it. You're going to do it with all these people and all the baggage, by the way, of Christianity for thousands of years now. And a lot of people I think, walk up to that point and go, no, this is a bridge too far. If I have to connect it with these people in this history, then I'm not going to do it. But we're all invited into the messiness of all of that. Not to embrace it and take on all of it as our own ideology, but to work through it and to work through it together. And God. Yeah, humility is the trick. [00:31:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And messiness. It's not ideal. It'd be nice if everything was not messy, but we don't really have that alternative. We don't have a clean way to do this that looks like Jesus. Jesus, for whatever reason, in his mission, in his heart, he gathers a group of messy guys together. And ever since then, it's been kind of a mess. And maybe that's why the Holy Spirit is so needed within the church, because you stop relying on that. And then you have to figure out ways to get rid of the messiness. And so a church that is absent of the Holy Spirit and then figures out ways to get everyone to fall in line and be uniform to avoid the messiness. Yikes. And that's where we get these movements that look like violence in the name of peace. Right. That you were talking about throughout history, many times in the name of religion, Christian religion. And so messiness, I think, is the option we're given from Christ. Yeah. [00:32:17] Speaker A: And it's funny that violence and peace are often just considered those opposites. Peace is so much harder than violence. Violence is so clear and clean and reckless and big and loud. And peace is so nuanced and takes into account so much more when it comes to past and emotions and feelings. And so if you listen to the podcast, you go to Westside and you're feeling that tension in trying to walk this out, and that's exactly where you're supposed to be. You better be feeling that tension of trying to achieve peace and unity in your world, because that is hard. If you find it easy to be with people all the time or to get your stuff done, then you're probably a little more prone to violence in how you live. Right? [00:33:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's a reason it crops up again and again in history, that violence is the answer to get to peace. Because you can justify it. Right. Rome comes in, there's warring tribes, and everybody's poor and nothing is working and everyone's dying young. And so they go, we can do this better. And, yeah, we're going to have to kill some people, but it's worth the trade off. Yes. You know, and it's that kind of calculus that has created some of history's great monsters. Right. It's worth the trade off to get to a world where these warring tribes, all this nonsense is over, and we do something efficient and effective. Yeah. Jesus comes in, changes the world with a radically different vision. Yeah. [00:33:47] Speaker A: And it's math. All those other guys are doing math. They're saying these are inefficiencies. If we have this kind of person and these people in this area, then sickness and disease and these things happen. And so the quickest way is to eradicate it. The math is there and the time is there, and Jesus is. So we could all use Jesus having a little bit more math, actually. So much of what he does doesn't make sense in an. On the surface, right. Takes the long way around, only lives for 33 years. Like there's so many other ways that you and I would strategize to probably do it different. And yet he does it this way. [00:34:21] Speaker B: Well, and the math makes all the sense in the world. And it works really well as long as you're okay dehumanizing every process. Exactly, exactly. And a dehumanized population, Great. These are just numbers on a board. And so we do whatever, you know. And that was. You brought up Nazi Germany. That was that rationale of, like, the old and the sick and the infirm. They don't add anything to society. Great. We'll kill them and move on. And of course, all the evils that come with that. And that is the exact opposite of what God does in Christ. Right. Where the word becomes flesh. The incarnate Christ is God becoming human to. To bring humanity back to us because we dehumanize each other all the time. And this is where I think sin, in Paul's view, is going to lead us. Where I dehumanize you, you dehumanize me. And so now when we kill each other, it made sense. It made sense why we fight. It made sense why we went to war, it made sense why we committed genocide. And instead he says Christ comes in, tears down the walls of hostility, rehumanizes everybody. Just as Christ came to be with us and now invites us into this deeply human experience of the new humanity, the new community that Christ brings. And it's this beautiful pushback. And it's the polar opposite of all the dark places that we go and dehumanize each other. Right. [00:35:46] Speaker A: And you could make an argument for the Gentiles, who have been the oppressed party for so long, that if grace is what it is and justice of God is what it is, then we actually get to then crush our oppressors on the other end of it. That the Jews then will suffer as we have suffered. But Jesus makes a way for both in again, the mind of the Gentile, the oppressed and the oppressor to then exist and to find that reconciled place, which again is just so much harder. It's in history. It's the Gentiles are crushed because they're not human and they are less than. Or the Jews get crushed because that is sweet and tasty just after all that you've put us through. And yet Jesus does something better. [00:36:29] Speaker B: Sure. And it's such a. Everybody has good reasons for being upset with each other. That Paul's writing to. Because, yeah, the Jews have religiously looked down on outsiders from a religious perspective because that's all they had. They weren't this powerful force. They were oppressed, occupied, beaten down people for as long as they were around. Abraham on. Right. And so they have good reason to be angry at the Gentiles. The Gentiles have good reason to be. And so it's like, no, it all makes sense. I don't think Paul's coming against the logic of this. The hostility is the most logical thing, but we're not dealing with just what's the most reasonable outcome. We're saying Christ comes to break all the reason. Yeah. [00:37:17] Speaker A: That's the best way to put it. It's not reasonable. It goes beyond the realms of logic and reason and gives us. That's grace. Right. That's the very definition of it. At the core of it, grace just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And yet it exists. And it's the reason that things flourish, that when we are actually set free, that new life and beautiful things come from that. [00:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's why he starts with grace, because you have to understand that the playing field is level and that you've received great grace. I think before you're ever willing to extend the kind of grace that breaks down real hostilities, theoretical hostilities, maybe you can get around if it never really happened to you. And you're thinking, well, yeah, my great grandparents were enemies with this group, but I don't have anything against them. But to really, actually break down hostilities between somebody that you actively hate and you have a personal reason to do it, I think you have to realize what kind of grace you've received. Right. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that's so good. Those who have been forgiven much love much. [00:38:16] Speaker B: That's right. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Still stands. If we are just simply aware a lot of our parenting, sometimes when Rebecca and I are tired, a little bit more resentful with the kids, it's that, do you know what we have done for you today is the temptation to reach out and say, right. Do you understand how much the thing that you want costs? And do you understand we bought you two over the last year and whatever. And. And you do see these little glimpses as a child is growing up of like, oh, I think I saw what you did. And that is there's a sweet moment like that for a parent. Right. That the child not only receives with gratefulness, but then they look back on with gratefulness. I had a moment with Joel where he looked at me a Couple years ago. And he said, dad, is being a dad hard. And I was like, whoa. He's like, seeing me right now. And he's being. And I inhaled to respond and he burped so loud right in that second, like elf style long. And then he just went and he forgot the question he asked. He doesn't know. He's. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Forgive the worst. No, it's true. This past week was Mother's Day. And so I hosted texting my mom. And I said in my note, I said, now that I'm an adult trying to figure out how to parent. I realize what you were doing that worked for us. And you just don't know it. As a receiver of it in the moment, you really don't understand what's going on. You're just kind of blissfully unaware. I think that's part of grace, too, is that we don't really understand the mechanism by which we get to live in the grace of God. Like, theoretically, we know, but we don't know. Just like a kid doesn't really know. [00:40:06] Speaker A: No, that's a really good point. My kid doesn't fully understand. Except for Luca. Luca's thankful for everything. Yeah, sure. [00:40:12] Speaker C: I don't know about that. [00:40:13] Speaker A: She seems so thankful. [00:40:17] Speaker B: There are those kids that. I think it's more personality type. I remember I had a couple of my cousin's kids. They were always very well spoken, like a few years ahead of where they should be, and seemingly thoughtful and so intimidating to me where it's like, I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to speak to you. I feel like, you know, I don't know why. They're just, like, so wise and they're not. They're just kids. [00:40:45] Speaker C: But it's just like, they're articulate their words better. [00:40:47] Speaker B: They're a little bit too articulate. And it freaks me out. [00:40:51] Speaker A: Like, the freaking out is that they almost. Those kids usually just learn how to monkey really well, right? To imitate what is going on in their environment. I think that's probably what was in you that scares you. Like, oh, they can kind of hack this thing. Whatever's going on, they could probably plug into it. [00:41:05] Speaker B: And it's probably. They spend a lot of time around adults, so they learn the rhythms and it feels a little out of place. Freaks you out as an adult. [00:41:12] Speaker A: They don't know exactly what it means. And so I pulled up to Kids Inc. To coach a little League practice. And I was early, so I was doing some work on my phone. I just got to hear Kids Inc. For a good five minutes. And my gosh, that was fantastic television. Just a little worlds that they build up for each other and you can tell the little hierarchies and treatment and who the boss and the leader is of this group of four and. Oh, man, amazing animals. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Amazing animals, children. Amazing animals. So good. This week we have a good friend and someone who's been very important in our life and leadership. Pastor Bo Stern. Brady coming back. So excited to have after almost two years, I think since she's spoken here at Westside. Yeah, she was on staff for like 15 years. A lot of our time, I guess, growing in our speaking happened under her and Steve. So we learned a lot from Beau, and it's gonna be great to have her back. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Yeah. You invited me to speak at a camp before I was working at Westside, out at Ouachita Family Ranch. You were there. I think you were leading worship. Probably. Yeah. Anyway, it's not much of a story other than I went to speak one of the nights, and right before I learned that Beau was in the room, before I walked up onto the stage and I was like, this sucks. I don't want to do this anymore. I'm so scared. So I'm glad she's coming over and she's speaking and not me. That's ideal. I still feel that way. Bo's in the room, like, ugh, I gotta shape up, figure this out. I gotta learn. Not that she ever puts that on anybody. Of course, there's a wisdom that goes with her that feels intimidating to me still, in the best way. [00:42:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I remember she was so part of very formative years in my life just because I met her. Our family started attending the church where her and her husband Steve, who since passed, they were the youth pastors. And I was 11 years old when we showed up. And for some reason, me and my brothers thought that they were brother and sister. They were not. They were married. Yeah. That's weird that a brother and sister are youth pastors together. Well, they're not. They have children of their own. Anyway, so just so much history. And so it's always great to have Beau back. [00:43:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it really is the best. We miss Beau and we haven't seen Steve in a long time. These little folks of our network have just not been immediately around us like I like them to be in a little while. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Shout out to Suzanne mickle though the 9:30 service this past weekend. So Suzanne is Steve's wife and she was on staff with us for many, many Years. And they're currently living in the Portland area until this summer, anyway. So we haven't seen a him in a while. And I'm sitting there listening to your message, and it was very funny. A lot of people were laughing, right. And I hear this laugh and like, oh, Suzanne, I heard it too. You can't miss Suzanne's laugh. And I went up to her after. I'm like, I heard that laugh. And I said, suzanne is sitting somewhere behind me. I can tell. [00:44:09] Speaker A: I heard her before I saw her. And then, yeah, she came up to me after, and I was like, oh. I was actually a little relaxed, like, oh, that is Suzanne. It's not somebody that I'm really confusing. Her laugh. She has such a specific laugh, you. [00:44:22] Speaker B: Know, now sometimes her sister Sharon, who is part of our church, she sounds like Suzanne. Obviously, they're sisters. So at first I was like, is that Sharon? No, it can't be. [00:44:32] Speaker A: That's just a little bit of a different tenor from Suzanne. It's a little different. Oh, gosh. It did feel good, though. That specific laugh felt familiar. And, I mean, I'm a sucker for laughs anyway. [00:44:42] Speaker B: And I know Suzanne well enough to know that she. She's participating because she's into whatever you're saying, but she's also there to support you. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:51] Speaker B: And you can hear that, you know, and it just feels nice. People are rooting for you. [00:44:57] Speaker A: There's always like, one or two people in the crowd that are like, I know what you're going through as a teacher, and I'm here to cheer on the teacher, not just receive from the teacher. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I see where you're going with this point. And I'm gonna try to help you get there. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And if you're done, I'm gonna Amen so that you move on. [00:45:15] Speaker B: And you had a, of course, very funny moment at the 9:30. You're reading Ephesians 2, and you get to the part where it says they call themselves the circumcision. And then it went off the rails. [00:45:27] Speaker A: It just. I laughed so hard. I'm sure everybody who's listening to the podcast has probably heard the message or whatever by now. [00:45:33] Speaker B: I did. [00:45:34] Speaker A: I couldn't stop laughing because I made the joke. Like, do you ever call yourself the circumcision? Which is just how it phrased popped out to me in a way that it hurt. And I felt a little bad for going off the rails and just laughing. And then I was like, you know what? Forget it. I can't help it. [00:45:49] Speaker B: And then you. You you kept reading the passage, which was like three and a half slides long. It was such a long passage. And I could. I could feel you trying to get. Desperately trying to get to the end of that passage. [00:46:01] Speaker A: Were you relieved that I just laughed and called it anyway? Because. [00:46:04] Speaker B: No, I was horrible. I was more scared. Oh, man. Because you interrupted yourself again. And I said that. This to you after I said I was worried because the third time you stopped to laugh. You've lost the crowd. [00:46:15] Speaker A: Yes, I went to laugh that second time, and everyone laughed again. And I was like, thank God they're still with me. But I had the same feeling of like, but I probably don't get another one, so I need to laugh this out. And then once I read, I just have to get to the prayer between the reading of the Scripture and then into the body of my message, and I think I'll be okay. And thankfully, I was. [00:46:40] Speaker B: As a public speaker, the giggles are about the worst. [00:46:44] Speaker A: Has this happened to you? [00:46:46] Speaker B: I don't think I've ever broken down. [00:46:48] Speaker A: It's happened to me once before, a long time. [00:46:50] Speaker B: I felt that come up. And if you're not a public speaker, it's comparable like if you're on a plane and you're watching a funny movie, but you feel like no one's with you, so you got to keep it under control. And everything becomes like, 10 times more funny because you can't laugh or you can't really. That's how it feels where you're like, pull it together. Pull together. And so everything becomes more exaggerated, you know, than it actually is because it's funny. The circumcision thing, that's a funny thing. But, man, the way you were laughing, it was. It was a deep. [00:47:21] Speaker A: And that's the thing is it was not that funny. Like, it was funny. And I think I've made similar jokes before. I did it in the third one. I said, you know, they call themselves the Circumcision. That'd be an interesting band name, you know, or it's a funny band name. And I laughed. Everybody laughed. And then we moved on. That's how it always goes. And I do not know what happened. I don't know if I was tired or the laugh that came from the congregation caught me off guard or something like that. I haven't felt like that in forever. [00:47:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it was good to see that the crowd loves it, just to see that. Raw, unfiltered. Because I think people come to expect a certain level of politics, polish and, you know, preparedness and stuff. So when they get to see just like, clearly, this was not planned. [00:48:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it's. [00:48:08] Speaker B: And probably we're more unplanned than people think. [00:48:11] Speaker A: Yes. [00:48:12] Speaker B: But when people are, it's almost a signal of, like, no, that. That wasn't planned. That didn't happen in any other services. Yeah. Yeah. [00:48:20] Speaker A: And if I. If I let my brain wander a little bit, I veer toward the side of being lesser polished for the sake of, you know. But certainly there's still a lot of polish. But I get in there, and, yeah, I start doing that, and I'm almost like, oh, no. This is like, people are gonna think I've completely cracked because I'm already a little looser than maybe most they would see. And I get a little insecure about it. But really, even that night, I was like, that was just really stupid. Fun, wonderful. We all laughed hard. Some people were laughing so, so hard. [00:48:52] Speaker B: So hard. [00:48:52] Speaker A: And so was I. And it was. [00:48:54] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:48:55] Speaker A: It was kind of fun. [00:48:57] Speaker B: But you're right. When you're like, I've been living in a trailer for four months, and then you start cackling uncontrollably, I thought about that. He lost his mind. [00:49:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:05] Speaker B: It didn't come off that way. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Oh, man. It was very fun, for sure. [00:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah. That's okay. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Lindsay. You missed it. I would. [00:49:11] Speaker C: So sad. I missed it. I love that kind of stuff. [00:49:14] Speaker B: We did. We watched it this morning. [00:49:15] Speaker C: We did. I got to see it this morning. It's not the same, but it still made me laugh. [00:49:20] Speaker B: It's not the same when, you know, he made it through. Cause in the moment, that elevates the whole experience. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Well, going back to what you're saying with Suzanne, she's looking at us a little bit differently because of her relationship with teaching and being in the church and all that kind of stuff. So I know you're looking at me going, this is funny. And I can feel the stakes rising. He could ruin this whole thing. And I was feeling that, like, I could not recover from this. And we are going to need to call the panda. [00:49:51] Speaker B: And that is going through my head. Not seriously, like, I'm not planning on, like, going up to save you. I'm like, yeah. Oh, man. If we have to, like, turn this because he just can't recover, you're gonna. [00:50:01] Speaker A: Like, come up and hold me for a second. [00:50:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. We're gonna go to questions from the audience now while Ben laughs in the corner. I just keep laughing hysterically. [00:50:11] Speaker A: The only thing that feels like that to me is getting chased. When you're a kid, kid, you ever have that feeling like you're playing tag or something, somebody's chasing you, and it's fun and funny, and you have this like, I'm trying to run, but my stomach is just heaving from, like, this kind of feeling your arms start. That's how I felt as a speaker for that minute and a half. I'm like, being chased. I'm like, so if he's just 15 now. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Giggles are gonna get you. They're gonna get you. [00:50:40] Speaker A: You just fall down, you can't run anymore. Oh, man. Oh, so funny. [00:50:46] Speaker B: And it was Mother's day, so I think it all came together great. Anyway. Oh, so many people, so funny. [00:50:51] Speaker A: Going to church, their moms. It's great. [00:50:53] Speaker B: Yeah, it's sweet on Mother's Day. [00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:56] Speaker B: And I heard that we even got special treats for moms in the atrium. Yeah. [00:51:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, we had some special. [00:51:05] Speaker B: I just caught Gwen's eye. She was looking at me like. Is that all you were gonna say? That's the whole statement. [00:51:10] Speaker A: Well, Glenn was wondering if you're gonna comment on the cookie bear. The cookie bear and the small cookie bear. [00:51:15] Speaker B: Well, you comment on it so much, I let that be. [00:51:17] Speaker A: I know I haven't done it the last while. Every other people just did. I play to the sea. Nobody else has a microphone. Lindsay wouldn't talk about. Somebody's got to talk about the cookie bear. [00:51:25] Speaker B: It's fair enough. Anyway. All right, we'll see you next week on behind the Message.