Vision

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: And I'm Ebony Oberker. Hi, Ben. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Hi. Lindsay's back too. Lindsay was gone for a while. It was your anniversary, right? [00:00:25] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. [00:00:26] Speaker A: Anniversary. [00:00:27] Speaker C: Thank you. [00:00:27] Speaker A: How many? [00:00:28] Speaker C: 18. [00:00:29] Speaker A: 18. [00:00:30] Speaker B: It's a lot of years. [00:00:31] Speaker C: That's a lot of years. It's a grown adult. [00:00:33] Speaker A: When are you guys ev. [00:00:35] Speaker B: We'll be 20 this year. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:00:37] Speaker B: Big two. Zero. Wait, this year being next summer? [00:00:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Yeah. We're in the middle of 19. [00:00:43] Speaker A: So what'd you guys do, Lindsay? [00:00:46] Speaker B: Well, we. [00:00:47] Speaker C: We were already planning a trip to Mexico to visit my mom. She lives there part time. And it just so happened to fall on our anniversary. I know. So we went to dinner in Mexico. My mom watched the girls. It was great. [00:01:00] Speaker A: Come on. [00:01:01] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:02] Speaker A: Hot down there. [00:01:03] Speaker B: It was. [00:01:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it was hot. It was awesome. It was really, really nice. [00:01:09] Speaker B: This is the correct time to go to Mexico. [00:01:12] Speaker C: Agreed. [00:01:13] Speaker B: Because you got to wait. If you go too early in the fall, I feel like then it's like, still nice here and you don't get the full impact of, like, leaving frosty Oregon and. [00:01:21] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I agree. It was actually nice when we left, though, because this autumn has been unseasonably warm. But when we got back, it was frigid. [00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:31] Speaker A: Like right when you got back, I think changed. [00:01:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:34] Speaker A: What a great summer in fall. [00:01:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Like really. Right. I don't want to be a prisoner of the moment. This fall's been magic and summer was limited smoke. [00:01:43] Speaker B: I think we had like two smoke days. [00:01:45] Speaker A: Like legit smoke days on like 200 degree days. Yeah, we kind of sat in that 93, 94 zone. That's perfectly doable. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Well, La Nina is on its way. [00:01:55] Speaker A: What does that mean? [00:01:56] Speaker B: I've heard we're in for a cold, precipitous, wet winter, so we might have a lot of snow. [00:02:04] Speaker A: La Nina and El Nino are. I thought they were storms. That's not it. [00:02:10] Speaker B: I think they're. [00:02:11] Speaker A: It's like an era of weather. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Here's us talking about meteorology because we know so much. [00:02:18] Speaker A: Well, I think you do know. [00:02:20] Speaker B: I think they're jet stream patterns that reoccur based on the year or not. JAD stream, but like whole systems. Not just like weather systems. Weather systems that appear non regularly. [00:02:34] Speaker A: I think I'm getting my info on how El Nino works based on the Chris Farley SNL set. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Do you remember that one where he's like on a wave or something. El Nino's Spanish for the nino. [00:02:50] Speaker B: So good. I don't. I don't know the difference between La Nina and El Nino. I don't know. Which does what? I don't. I just saw a map that said we're in for a wet winter. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Is this how the Farmer's Almanac thing works, too? Is it based on this? [00:03:03] Speaker B: I think that's more straight up, like voodoo practice. Okay. I don't know. [00:03:08] Speaker A: Great. But they sell it at Lowe's. Are they doing. Is that voodoo at Lowe's? [00:03:13] Speaker B: The warlocks of Lowe's have developed the almanac for next year. [00:03:18] Speaker A: I've never believed the Farmer's Almanac. That's not. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Doesn't the Farmer's Almanac? It, like, looks at the next year, but then it'll tell you, like, 100 years from now, here's how the crops are going to do. [00:03:26] Speaker A: That's why I'm like, I don't know. I haven't read that far into it. [00:03:29] Speaker B: I don't think that's amazing. [00:03:31] Speaker A: I don't believe in the farmers because I believe in Jesus. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Was that founded by Ben Franklin? The Farmer's Almanac? [00:03:37] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:03:37] Speaker C: I think so. [00:03:38] Speaker B: I feel like it was famously really founded by him. Yeah. [00:03:42] Speaker A: Why? I mean, I guess he had his hand. [00:03:43] Speaker B: The Doolittle letters and the Farmer Almanac and the Declaration of Independence. [00:03:50] Speaker C: The Doolittle letters, yeah. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Thanks, Nick Cage. [00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:54] Speaker A: Appreciate it. Yeah. [00:03:54] Speaker B: Yeah. All my information comes from Nick Cage movies. Also ghost writer. Not ghost writer, but Ghost Rider. We should talk about that movie sometime. [00:04:02] Speaker A: The movie. [00:04:02] Speaker B: The movie. [00:04:03] Speaker A: The Nick Cage one. Yeah. I mean, we really should. We should talk about Nic Cage, just in general. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Right. I love Nick Cage, so the last three years, I freaking adore the guy. He's the best. I think before that, I felt like he was just kind of. I didn't get it. He was just kind of a meme in my mind. I've gone back, rewatched that Face Off. I love Nic Cage. Yeah. Is it a millennial thing, maybe? [00:04:27] Speaker B: No, I'm in. I'm in on Nic Cage. I do think, like, Season of the Witch, and there was some years where I feel like the movies were garbage. And now he's into his, like, elder actor season where he's making. [00:04:44] Speaker A: But I think hits and misses. Him doing those has endeared himself more to me because he strikes me, and I think I just respect this in general. He strikes me as a guy that's just like. No, I kind of to do that. So I'm just going to do it. It doesn't have to be the perfect moment or I think it's going to be the biggest blockbuster hit. Like, I'm going to do it because I want to. And I love that. [00:05:04] Speaker B: He's great. It reminds me years ago when I was doing youth ministry here, we would do stupid videos for, like, announcements and stuff. And the two guys that were doing the videos brought me in for a scene and I was supposed to be scolding them and how bad their acting was in the videos. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:21] Speaker B: And I remember my line was, you guys, I wanted Nic Cage in Con Air, and you gave me Nick Cage in Season of the Witch, which, I mean, imagine this is like, for high schoolers. So it's such deep tracks that they wouldn't understand or get the references at all. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:37] Speaker B: Con Air. And for us, it made it so funny, like, to be referencing Con Air. Nic Cage is acting in Con Air for a group of high schoolers. [00:05:45] Speaker A: So much of that garbage we did in that era was just for us. Anyway, it wasn't for the kids were trying to have our own little moment. [00:05:51] Speaker B: Oh, the videos would bomb so bad. [00:05:53] Speaker A: The accent in Con Air, that's rough. It's hard for me and the General over. Right? For sure. [00:06:01] Speaker B: It's amazing. National Treasure. [00:06:04] Speaker A: Love that. National Treasure. [00:06:06] Speaker B: My kids are really hoping for a National Treasure 3. We'll see if it happens. [00:06:10] Speaker A: Have they watched them? [00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:11] Speaker A: Have they watched Indiana Jones? [00:06:13] Speaker B: Not yet. That's probably next, you know. Yeah. I think, you know, age appropriate. There's some scary stuff in Indiana Jones, but. [00:06:21] Speaker A: What? [00:06:22] Speaker B: Jack's pretty old now. You know, Light a cigarette and watch. He's seven. I'm kidding. And I don't support smoking. [00:06:32] Speaker A: I mean, I really want him. He's a smart kid. My kids would not. I think he would connect the Ark of the Covenant experience in Indiana Jones with the Ark of the Covenant that he knows from scripture. He would probably be drawn. [00:06:45] Speaker B: It'd probably bring up some good conversations and questions. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Questions. Yeah. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Which. We're in that zone. I don't know how your kids, you know, they hit these, like, big, huge, existential questions. Phases and Jack's definitely in that. [00:06:57] Speaker A: Is he? [00:06:58] Speaker B: Yeah. He'll ask questions about the afterlife and heaven and. Yeah, just big, huge questions. [00:07:04] Speaker A: My daughter does some stuff like that. That's the. The who made God? Who made God question is one that came up the other day, which is phenomenal. Critical thinking question. Love it. Joel is a little bit more of a bro. And the Existential piece hasn't quite hit him yet. [00:07:22] Speaker B: At least he hasn't vocalized a lot. [00:07:24] Speaker A: Of questions about baseball and basketball and Giannis and. How do you say, Atenton Kupo. His last name. And that's kind of where Joel and I, these are people sit and rest. Yeah, he's a Greek that plays for the Milwaukee Bucks. [00:07:39] Speaker B: Oh, really? [00:07:40] Speaker A: But not all of us can have sweet children like Luca and Rosie, you know, who are just angels. [00:07:47] Speaker C: They are. They're little angel babies. [00:07:49] Speaker A: I know. Every time I talk with them, I'm like, wow, you're so put together and intelligent and bright and conversational. [00:07:59] Speaker C: That's shocking to me. They are stranger danger babies, for sure. They don't talk with people they're not familiar with. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Rosie has a little to that with me. Yeah. [00:08:09] Speaker C: They turn off. [00:08:09] Speaker A: Luca doesn't. Luka's stranger danger. [00:08:11] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, she's getting older and a little bit growing out of that maybe, but yeah. No, my kids are cold as ice. They don't know you. They will give you nothing. [00:08:23] Speaker B: I remember Lindsay. Was it Luca? We were. We were all. A bunch of us were out at like food trucks or something. And she mistook me for Eric just from like the peripheral. And so she came up. Was it Luca? And I felt like, oh, no, now she's gonna like, never want to be near me ever again. She was embarrassed. [00:08:44] Speaker C: Yeah. I felt the same thing. [00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:45] Speaker C: And she hasn't talked to you since? Just kidding. [00:08:48] Speaker B: No, she's. [00:08:49] Speaker A: We're good. [00:08:50] Speaker B: I tried to be very non threatening and warm. From that point on, you felt that. [00:08:54] Speaker A: You never wanted to be near Evan again? [00:08:56] Speaker C: Me personally? [00:08:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:58] Speaker C: In that moment, that was the deal breaker. [00:08:59] Speaker A: I decided right then, no. [00:09:01] Speaker C: I was afraid Luca would forever hate Evan. [00:09:04] Speaker A: Oh, my God. [00:09:06] Speaker B: I remember those scary. I remember those embarrassing moments though, where you mistake somebody else for your friend. [00:09:10] Speaker C: Same. [00:09:11] Speaker B: And it just. You're so embarrassed. [00:09:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:09:12] Speaker B: And it's not a big deal from the obviously our side of it. [00:09:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:09:16] Speaker B: But for a kid, it's like, oh my gosh. [00:09:17] Speaker A: For sure. [00:09:18] Speaker C: I think she hugged you. [00:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:20] Speaker C: And she threw her arms around you. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Side like, hey, Luca. Just the look of. [00:09:26] Speaker A: Oh, it wasn't like, hey, dad. It was. [00:09:28] Speaker B: It was. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Anyway. Wow. [00:09:32] Speaker A: Good luck getting her to talk to you ever again. Evan. [00:09:34] Speaker B: We're working on it, Ben. We just came through two weeks of talking about vision of the church moving forward. Not really necessarily just for 26, but. Yeah. Talking through what makes Westside distinct and who we are. As we've seen, we have a lot of New folks around the last year. Two years. And so it felt like kind of a reintroduction of our values and distinctives to the church, which can be really dry and feel like a corporate seminar. But let's talk about, first of all, your week. First week talking about love life and Jesus. [00:10:11] Speaker A: Yeah. My wild week of ruining the 815 service and then following it up with. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Something that I love. How human you are. Ben, explain what happened. [00:10:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I just pooped the bed at 8:15. [00:10:28] Speaker B: That's one way to put it. [00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I like, read my notes, which I think is the. The cardinal sin in our line of work. I hate doing that. Where people preach that way. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Stare at the page the whole time. [00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And just feel kind of locked in that not connecting with the room. I consider ourselves. [00:10:43] Speaker B: We're not. [00:10:44] Speaker A: It's funny. And these words maybe don't mean as much as I think they do. We're not like teachers. You know, we don't show up and lecture. We're pastors and we're trying to teach and help people through some connect. You know, there's all these elements that I think belong into it in pastoring. And I just did not do that in any of those. And then outed myself to the next two services. [00:11:02] Speaker B: Which. [00:11:03] Speaker A: Which was Because I can't help it either. Like, I know they don't see anything, but there's an elephant in the room. Only to me that I really blew and butchered this. Which seems meaningful on vision too. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Right? Yeah. But if anything, you're a compelling, engaging speaker. And that's the reason when you end up staring at the page where it feels so out of place. Right. I'm sure in many places that 815 people would've been like, that's totally fine. But they're used to you being really engaging and. Yeah. And compelling. And so it happens. It comfort. Because I feel like that so oftentimes in our first service at 8:15, I'm just like, oh, oh, I'm so sorry. This group has a totally different experience than the. The last two services. Well. [00:11:47] Speaker A: And I think that was part of my discouragement was because I still think it's a pretty different experience even when we do well at the 8:15 just because you sort out a lot of things. But I felt like we had done the work and there was like a relational connect of like, yeah, it's not the 9:30, but it is exactly what the 8 be. And then it was just something that wasn't for anybody, you know. And then shared leadership went into action. You Helped me rewrite, especially the front, to get off on a better foot and then everything. [00:12:15] Speaker B: And I'll tell you, not because of me. I think you were ready to. To bring it the next service after that, for sure. And the 9:30 was one of the best messages I've heard you preach. It was so good, people were cheering. And by the end, I even referenced it at the benediction moment. Like, that was pretty good, Ben. Like, you really turned this one around. And I think the. The cr. Because you admitted, like, you had a rough experience at the A15, they were rooting for you the whole time. [00:12:40] Speaker A: Yes, they were. [00:12:41] Speaker B: And that energy coming from the crowd is gold. [00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. And I, in looking at the whole perspective, I think, huh, if misunderstood, that could feel really manipulative. That I said something at the beginning, admitting my problems at the age 15 so that you would cheer for me the rest of the time. That wasn't how it was. It was really like this genuine and at the core of it was us going to talk about vision right now. And I feel like things are working, not working. I just feel like everything is culminating in that we're doing ministry. How I believe that we should do, I think how Jesus is calling us to and people are responding. And that's a beautiful moment. And to get up there in the middle of it when I'm not sure I completely understand it yet. And there's a piece of me that's like, and then I'm gonna sell you on the vision for the next. Like, I don't want to do that. And we're not trying to sell people on that. But I think it was just this kind of like, cocktail of feelings where I was just a little caught off guard or not having a great grasp on exactly what I wanted to attack and go after in that first service. And he kind of felt it. And maybe that's a metaphor for how I feel like we are right now of we believe in something. I believe we're leading with great authority and strength. And there's so much that we're in the middle of, not even just what we're hoping to see. There's so much of what we're in the middle of right now that I'm like, I don't know exactly where what this means. I don't know what to do next in a practical and a spiritual way. So I think a lot of that just kind of insecurity came out that day and in beautiful and broken form, I guess. But the overall feeling is like, huh, Vision's hard, I think, to teach. [00:14:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And I do think when we come to vision, it is a mistake to over project like this. Like, we've got it all figured out. We are certain. I remember in 2019, a bunch of churches had this 2020, the year of perfect vision. You know, I know. And that's secretly such a picture of the folly of like, you know, this arrogance. Like, we have seen the future and it is so good. And then, you know, 20, 20 hits. And not that we want to be so insecure or call it humility, that we're like, we don't know what's going to go on. What do you guys want to do? But obviously that is terrible leadership. I think the Jesus way is to acknowledge that God's in charge of this. This is bigger than us, but we are prayerfully leading into what's next. And that's where if you struggle to the 8:15, I think you got the traction that was needed for the 9, 30 and the 11. And it felt like, yeah, let's do this. I mean, we had so many responses after that first week and the second. But just this lean in of people saying, like, all right, like, I'm so proud of who we are as a church, not just of you and I, but of where we're. We're headed, where we are. All these things that I think we've been praying for and working for for a lot of years. And now it feels like that whether snowball effect or whatever, where this momentum is, is catching and it's really exciting. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's where I think it speaks to what I believe to be about our church, is that there's a real depth, there's a real integrity, there's a real contemplative nature about how we're trying to lead and what you do. What I have learned about that style of leadership in church is that you very rarely see a whole lot of interest or growth or lean in immediately out of the gate because it's slow and it's contemplative and there's a deep. Is not a microwave. It's a slow cooker. You know, it's a slow smoker kind of a thing. And like, it got us out and I hope it keeps us out always of this idea of Ben and Evan are here in the leadership team and our worship team and our, you know, we're doing this to grow the church and it got us out of that and into. No, we're really just trying to pastor what's here and then the Longer term result of that has been more lean in more interest, momentum. And yeah, that's, that's a vision naturally puts you in this funny place. Like you said, we're not trying to predict the future and be prophets in that way. And we also don't want to roll in and be like, well, shoot you guys. Vision is the same thing for us. It's always been for every church. We're going to read the Great Commission, then we're going to let you go to the atrium. There's something that is specifically for us, but also is trying to not act in this kind of arrogant way and where we're projecting numbers or we're projecting exactly what's going to happen because we don't really know. And Jesus is in char. [00:17:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And some of the themes that came out are along the lines of like, what do we want the church to do in this moment? Not just who we are, which that's a big part of it. And not just what our mission is. That really doesn't change. We're called to follow in the way of Jesus and fulfill the Great Commission. But how do we do that? What does this community look like? And the first week you spent a lot of time talking about the need for healthy community, connected community and discipleship. We carried that on through week two with discipleship and specifically how we engage in the global emphasis of the Great Commission and some stories from that. But I want to talk about a couple of the questions that came up through these two weeks. One good question was when we read our vision, one of the lines in our vision statement is that we want to be known as a church. And we gave several distinctives and then said empowering to women and then kept going. Later in our vision we talk about having a vision for women and men teaching and leading together under the lordship and authority of Christ. But someone said, why would you single out that you want to be empowering to women and not include men there? [00:18:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:38] Speaker B: What do you say to that? [00:18:40] Speaker A: First of all, I think if I was gonna. If you were gonna ask me the question, somebody said this. Is that good news or bad news that they asked that question? I'm wondering if it's good news. I'm hoping that we're creating an environment where that becomes to feel obvious, like of course. Cause why wouldn't you? But what we know and the reason that it exists in that vision statement is because that has not been the case. And you do need to define that and make it clear. Traditionally in the evangelical church or in our Movement or whatever, that is not a given. And so it's important to the vision of the church to say, specifically, we believe in this piece, and we're going to do things in order to make that happen. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No one would. I would think no one would look at us or our church and be like, man, they are not empowering men. As a man in this movement and this church, I've been very, very empowered. And I think that the same is true for a lot of denominations and a lot of churches. There's not been roadblocks put up for men because of their gender being held back or not empowered. And so we do want to speak to those things that have not been the case. And in our movement, I think, uniquely, we were founded by a woman 100 years ago. Not a lot of evangelical denominations were founded by a singular female. And I think that's something that's unique and cool about the Foursquare Church. And also, after she was leading the movement that she started, her son took over. And from then on out, it's been men leading the movement. [00:20:21] Speaker A: You know, so it's like. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it's both. And so I want Lindsay to speak to this as one of our pastors and our prominent pastor in our church. What do we get right in this moment? And what are we still not hitting as far as this idea, empowering women? [00:20:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I think what we're getting right is a fervent desire to do this and recognizing that women have a place in leadership and pastoral ministry and speaking and preaching and teaching and leading both men and women. I think the play out of it is a lot trickier, and it's not. I don't think it's necessarily the fault of anyone. I think because of the way the system has been for so long, it's hard to. It's hard to actually do it. I know so many women who have heartbreaking stories of them feeling called to pastoral ministry in one degree or another and being told, no, your place is wife and mother, and you are not allowed to lead men or speak up in church. And just I've. I've heard just horrible stories. So I think it's hard to turn the ship. I think it is. And I think because it's not necessarily a given, like, people really do wonder, is your church, you know, does your church allow women to preach and that kind of stuff? We get those questions often. Yeah, I think. I think it's shifting culture, and I think even women in our movement are not necessarily feeling empowered or able to step into some of these roles yet. [00:22:24] Speaker A: And it's fair to say that if you're attending Westside Church for the first time and you've had some church experience before, that the odds are good that if you see that, that tells you something about how we not just feel about leadership, but really who we are culturally, because that doesn't necessarily exist everywhere else. We're speaking to a specific dynamic that happens in churches that many people have questions about right when they come in the door. And so it's pertinent that we make it part of our vision. It's kind of like the question we get from people sometimes that they're, they're rarely attacking us or anything. But it's like you guys are really like, driving in the nail on anti Christian nationalism. And why, why do you do that? And why don't you talk about this issue? And I go, well, that issue, there's nobody in our seats that is arguing for that or struggling with that. Christian nationalism happens inside the church, and it is our job as pastors to shepherd around that. So this is something that is happening right here. And maybe you feel like it's an interesting dynamic or you don't necessarily see it everywhere else. Well, we've seen it in the church, and so to answer that question is important. [00:23:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And when, you know, this year we saw the SBC remove Saddleback from their denomination over women in pastoral ministry. This is like real time debates. Maybe not as much in our church now, but in the American evangelical movement, it's a hot button issue that is very present, like you're saying, within the seats, and it's on people's minds. So when we speak to it, we're also put pushing it back against the idea that everything's a zero sum game, that to empower women is to devalue men, which we reject, or that to say we want to move women into teaching roles, preaching roles, pastoral roles, that, that devalues, you know, women being mothers or, you know, it's like me being a preacher does not devalue me as a dad to my kids, and neither does it that create some kind of unfairness to the role of a mother. So, you know, we want to push back against this idea of, oh, because this is true, everything else cannot be true. And that's important, right? Yeah, that came up. Another thing was when we talked about the demographic results that we got when we took the survey and having a broad kind of all across the spectrum politically. And some people, I think, are surprised that we would allow the extremes in at all. You know, so if you're very conservative, the thought that you're worshiping alongside not a huge percentage, but a small percentage of people who would consider themselves very progressive, that felt like an affront to them. And probably on the other side too, you have people who are very progressive saying, we allow people who are on the far right here. What do we say to that? [00:25:20] Speaker A: Well, we say there's a lot of details that you'd probably want to know within all of those categories. Right. We let people self identify as very conservative, somewhat conservative, somewhere in the middle, and then somewhat progressive, and then very progressive. Right. And there's a lot of like, you know, they would say in the political world, like, there's single voter issues and even those can vary within each and every single one of those categories. So I would say the first thing I would say is you still don't know exactly what that means about each and every single person. And the second and bigger thing I would say is, what kind of a church are we, if every part of this spectrum can exist inside of our walls? Like, what does that mean? And it is, it's not shocking, but it continues to point out areas of discipleship that we can help create for our church. That if you exist in one part of the spectrum and you hear that not everyone else in the seats is pretty much like you, that that's an offense to you. Like, we have to work past that. We have to get past it. We have to understand the dynamic of Jesus's disciples and having ultra radicals alongside tax collectors. And we have to know that this isn't just a suggestion. It's actually how we're going to work. I think there's a lot of churches and it's a really easy thing to do right now to say I'm going to pick my extreme. We're going to go all in on it and they're going to give and they're going to drupal down on our vision and they're going to keep this thing moving forward. We're just not going to go that way. You know, I would say that's the wrong, that's actually wrong. But let's say for a second that it's not. I choose still to go into a different direction. I think it's, it's more interesting, it's more Jesus, it's more powerful as far as actually caring for and reaching the broad spectrum of our world. And I said it in the message, like, I hope we view this as a strength that we can do this and not a detriment. [00:27:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And as we've discussed, maybe too much, but probably not. When you put all of your agreement and alignment and allegiance in a political camp, you're going to run afoul of the way of Jesus. You just are. There are political realities, whether, you know, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, whether that party is going to have to divert from the way of Jesus. It's just going to happen because the interests of a political party are never going to be perfectly aligned with the way of Jesus. And so if we're actually following the way of Jesus, we're going to be in conflict with a nice clean alignment or allegiance to a party. And I think that's really important for people to hear. That doesn't mean everyone has to be centrist. I think you can be passionate about politics and still follow Jesus, but just know at some point you're going to have to choose allegiance to that politician or that party or Jesus. And if you're being discipled, you're going to follow after Jesus even when it costs you agreement with those in your party. The other direction is where I think so many times we get it wrong is where we say, ah, I know, like this is what my party thinks. And I'm going to go with that, even though maybe it doesn't align with Jesus, or I'm going to twist what Jesus said to make it work in this. And that's what we got to avoid. I think as pastors, when we're pastoring people with all kinds of opinions, but then as just people with opinions ourselves, we always have to ask, like Jesus, challenge my bias towards this political bench. The other. [00:28:45] Speaker A: Yeah, and I think even the data, the data itself, the question is really rich and important and how people identify with those different segments in the question is valuable. Also, I want to encourage people to consider the specific moment that we've been in for the last decade in which I know some people that would probably answer the question, as I am very progressive and really they're just super allergic to what they feel like is going on in the conservative movement right now. They're probably somewhere closer to the middle. But right now they. They feel like they hate so much is what's happening on the other side and vice versa, I'm very conservative. You're probably somewhere toward the middle. You have an allergic reaction to what you feel like is the worst of the worst on the left. And so. And the numbers even show that out the somewhat combined with I feel like I'm in the Middle somewhere. Certainly the vast majority, the massive piece of the pie. And that's a great place to feel like we can pastor from. But I would wonder if even people that. That answered somewhere farther on the spectrum are probably more into the middle, but maybe reacting to a specific moment. I don't know. [00:29:49] Speaker B: These are. [00:29:49] Speaker A: These are questions that we don't really have answers to, but that's my suspicion. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Good questions. And again and again in pastoral meetings or responding to emails, I just encourage people like, there's a lot of folks that are rejecting the extremes on the right and the left. That does not mean they are extreme in the other camp. And I've said this before, but if someone is saying I can't get on board with the far right, that doesn't automatically mean they're on the far left and vice versa. And I think we do a disservice to the gospel when we divide our camps by who's the most extreme. Okay, they're in. And anyone that fails short of that standard of extremism is my enemy. They're evil. We have to reject that kind of thinking and have a vision for something greater than that within the kingdom and within the church. [00:30:45] Speaker A: And so I tip my cap now that if you know that all of this is in the water and that all these people are going to church with you, are you coming back? That's a huge thing. Right. That's why we bring up the numbers, is to say you're currently doing community and church with all these groups of people. If you're going to continue through the vision for 20, 26 and beyond, to continue to walk through these doors knowing that, I think that says something important and valuable about maybe your level of curiosity is too much to say, but maybe your level of desire to say, I might not know everything that there is to know. And I wonder if I can get something by continuing to participate in this community. And. And that's huge. And I think another big number in those surveys was how many people? What was it? If you combine the former Catholic group with the zero religious background group, you get almost 40% of our church. That is one of the most beautiful things I think I've ever seen in a survey. That response made me so happy that speaking to curiosity and kind of this lean in that we have a group of people that are either coming from a pretty distinctly different religious background or nothing at all and finding a level of safety here to explore a new terrain with us. That's beautiful. [00:32:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And surprising to me that the numbers are that High on people that did not come from a similar background to what our church is. And it's encouraging that something that's happening here is causing especially those that didn't grow up religious to say, you know, to lean in and show up. And it's. It's really good. And thanks to Justin and Lindsay. You guys championed this survey and. And pushed us to do it and kept bringing it up even when we would ignore the request for it. So. Thanks, Lindsay. [00:32:32] Speaker C: Yeah. A squeaky wheel going again next year. [00:32:36] Speaker A: I think so same survey, right? [00:32:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:39] Speaker A: Or virtually. Because we like to see results year over year. [00:32:43] Speaker B: Tweaking of the verbiage here and there. But I think the same. Same questions for sure. [00:32:47] Speaker A: So then we had week two. We talked about a global perspective that you presented. So speaking of, like going into vision and feeling like this little tension in myself, the tension is multiplied tenfold by talking about our influence globally. I don't know that I've ever really heard a church do this. Well, as far as how we communicate it. And I think you and I agree, we believe in the Great Commission go into all the world and. And preach the Gospel, all nations, baptize them the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. We believe in that. The go piece. And I think we also resist this kind of. We are exceptional. And the world is just begging for someone from our church to go out and to save it. And how to communicate in the middle of there. Which I thought you did really well. [00:33:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:35] Speaker A: Was to talk about this. We want to influence and be influenced at the same time. Believing that God works in discipleship in all those ways. [00:33:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because if we interpret the Great Commission as go and make Americans out of all nations or export Western culture because it's so awesome, we've missed the point. And we go with this arrogance that says as Western churches or American churches, we have it figured out and you need to emulate us. I don't think that's what discipleship is. We go to participate in the process of discipleship with those on the ground in faraway places that are praying for and oftentimes lacking resources, but are present doing this great work. And so we come alongside and there will be those places where we send folks into completely unreached places and are starting from the ground up. So there's not like believers that were joined alongside of. But I think our heart, because we are not so arrogant to think only we can do this, only we have the ability to teach and preach and disciple make is that as soon as, you know, missionaries are in a place, they're hopefully immediately saying, lord, raise up people from this place to go out. And I love what's happened in East Africa with Global Ventures and the Island Leadership Network, where it's Africans raising up Africans to reach Africans, you know, and that's such a beautiful picture, I think, of how we want to see missions is not that we are just, you know, a team of 20 investors can go around the world and preach on the sidewalk and be awesome. You know, we have to break that down. And hopefully our. [00:35:20] Speaker A: Whatever our global influence looks like, it should also just teach and inform us. There's this narrative inside of the American church in some places that's like we're being pushed aside and cornered and ostracized and some would even say persecuted. Well, and then you go hang out with Mehmet and Barry Vaughn in the one Christian church inside of a city of 250,000 people, and you go, no, I think this is probably more what it looks like to really not have any kind of a foothold in the culture. And you also see Mehmet and Barryvan in the middle of that dynamic, not trying to look to create enemies of the people around them to have some kind of a fight. Instead, they're digging deep roots inside of a community so they can care for their neighbors and they have a great, wonderful, positive attitude about them and genuine care for their city. And that's how this move of God is going to start in the middle of this area. And so you, you could just go to Turkey and say, we're going to go teach and preach or whatever, but even if you just went and hung out with the leadership there, you would go, huh? I understand the world a little bit better now. And then. That helps me inform the nature, what I believe to be about the nature of God. [00:36:28] Speaker B: Right, right. And it's so evident when sitting there with their church present, are probably out of a group of about 40, there's probably 10 Muslim people happy to be part of this community sitting there. I don't know if they were actually receiving communion or just observing, but like, they're in the stuff of this Christian community having yet, you know, not yet like converted or confessed faith in Christ. But there is something compelling about the community to them. And there is a. A willingness to be there and not be combative. You know, it didn't devolve into some debate of Jesus versus Muhammad. You know, like, there wasn't this tension. It was a, I think an expression of like, this is our city and this is our neighborhood and all are welcome. And we're going to preach about Jesus. And I do think there is a beauty in putting out a non combative presence in evangelism that invites people to lean in without feeling like they have to have their defenses up. And Turkey is a great example of that. But it also inspires me, like how do we reach people here? Do we do it in a let's go debate? And I'm going to crush your arguments for why Jesus is not the way you put that out there. And you're going to invite a level of combativeness in evangelism that I think there's a better way. [00:37:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And can we just say that that wasn't how Jesus did it, like the combative. He was invited to debate all the time and just really was disappointing to everybody involved. That was like, you know, I think about the woman caught in adultery and there literally discusses this crowd of people that have gathered around to have him not render judgment on a woman. But instead, really what it is, is it's like this philosophical and theological debate and he bums everyone out. And it happens more than just that time. And Jesus resistance to this ultra debate culture is how we're going to win the whatever. It just doesn't seem like his way at all. And so that's what makes me proud of thinking about how we do it. [00:38:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Jesus is constantly giving non answers to trick questions where he does get angry and combat it, you know, and goes to bat against people. It's always just when religion is taking advantage of people. So he overturns tables in the temple because you have people taking advantage of the poor. He, he goes after Pharisees and religious leaders because they're, they're using the law to elevate themselves and push down people that God loves. So it's like the priorities of proselytizing religion fly in the face of the priorities of Jesus to condemn those that would take advantage of people who need the mercy of God. And so if we follow him, it's going to lead us probably away from smart debates that make us look smart and right and into places where we're defending voiceless and weak and the poor. [00:39:39] Speaker A: And where they're coming to him saying, look Jesus, the law is clear, so go ahead and repeat the clear law. He's saying, your intentions are more clear to me. Yeah, you, you want to come and crush me and my disciples about what we're doing on the Sabbath? Well, which one of you, if a donkey was in a hole somewhere and you had to do come on you guys. Like your motivation is so clear here. And that's what Jesus wants to expose. And I believe that that's the truth with us too, is that our, our motivations, the underlying heart behind all of these things for how we reach the world and our neighbors, that is the thing that we need to keep in check and understand all the time that that needs to be in align with Jesus. Especially when we find ourselves coming to a place where we go, well, obviously, boom, this is the answer. Jesus would slow us down and check our hearts. [00:40:22] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, having a global perspective on what God is up to and to think beyond our own four walls and our own needs and moment and challenges and to consider what God is doing all over the world, it actually, it shapes us into a person that is more willing to sit in those Jesus shaped places. And I think it makes us better disciples as we're following Jesus. And I think the theme of both weeks, if there was one word that I think applies to both, is discipleship. How are we actually being shaped to look more like Jesus? And all of it matters. How we bring our politics and submit those to the way of Jesus, how we get out of our closed minded four walls to think about the world, all of this makes us better disciples and hopefully brings us to a place, like I said on Sunday, where we're willing to change our mind. And it's so key. Once we become closed to changing our mind, we are opting out of discipleship. I believe that we have to be willing for Jesus to transform how we think. [00:41:27] Speaker A: So what vessels are we doing we use in the next year in order to create discipleship? We talk about global. We've got several trips happening. There's a trip to Mexico, another trip to Turkey, a trip to East Africa, Uganda, and then upcoming real close. We've got an opportunity to serve people in our community through Christmas. And then we've got our Christmas Eve service which is a huge fun celebratory deal. Lindsay, looking at you, the pastor discipleship, what are some other places people are going to be able to step into that you're excited about to, to continue to move forward in their discipleship? [00:42:03] Speaker C: Yeah. So we, me and Pastor Brandt, who is the pastor of discipleship, that works very closely with me. We've got a bunch of classes. We're such nerds. We love them so much. But he and I basically looked at the year next year and just picked, you know, a couple little pockets throughout where we can offer just an opportunity for a little bit for people to go deeper, to learn about different aspects of our faith. Discipleship, spiritual formation, people who've influenced our faith, things like that, which I'm so excited about, to have that opportunity here for people to come and learn and grow together. There's going to be ample opportunity next year. [00:42:51] Speaker A: That's great. [00:42:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's exciting. As Brett read off the different classes that we're going to have this next year, I'm like, oh, man, people are going to love that. I think we're kicking off first the year with a C.S. lewis course. And what's the theme of that? It's maybe we need a brand. [00:43:09] Speaker A: The person is the theme. [00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah, but Christian imagination. That's right. Thank you, Justin. But, you know, for those that want to travel, there's opportunities. For those that want to learn here, there's opportunities. For those that want to just sink their teeth into, like, worshiping together, there's opportunities here. And so we are trying to be maybe a little bit more maximalist than in years past, but respond to, I think, people's desire to get their hands around discipleship and actually do this stuff both within the church building and outside of it. So it's exciting. [00:43:48] Speaker A: Some community within there, too. Yeah, it's good, man. I do want to finish this episode with a little bit of. Which is better. Are you guys ready? Ready for this little holiday? Which is better. See, we were talking about debating just a second ago. I would like to debate. You ready for this? [00:44:04] Speaker B: Fair enough. [00:44:06] Speaker A: Okay. Sugar cookies or gingerbread cookies? [00:44:09] Speaker B: Sugar question. [00:44:10] Speaker A: Sugar cookies. Sugar cookies for sure. In 100% agreement sledding. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Go back if you're gonna ask sugar cookies or gingerbread cake? I would probably go gingerbread cake. [00:44:23] Speaker A: Who's making gingerbread cake? [00:44:25] Speaker B: Anyone who knows what's up about Christmas? Fresh out of the oven, gingerbread cake with real whipped cream. [00:44:35] Speaker C: Like, literally never heard of it. [00:44:37] Speaker B: Are you serious? You've never had gingerbread cake? [00:44:39] Speaker A: No, I don't think I have either. [00:44:41] Speaker B: You guys are insane. [00:44:42] Speaker A: Is it just cake with. [00:44:44] Speaker B: Do you even believe in Christmas? [00:44:46] Speaker A: This is not, like, a hardcore foundational tradition. [00:44:50] Speaker B: It is where I grew up. We can move on. But anyway, that's my opinion. [00:44:55] Speaker A: Oh, no. We should bed down right here and talk about this for a while. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Maybe I can. I'll call my mom and see if she can make some gingerbread cake for us and bring it into church. [00:45:02] Speaker C: Oh, that'd be great. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. All right, fair enough. Elf or home alone? [00:45:06] Speaker C: Home alone. [00:45:07] Speaker B: Home alone. Elf kind of annoys me. [00:45:09] Speaker A: Whoa, whoa, whoa. I know the holiday takes are so far off the rails. Two questions in this is insane. [00:45:17] Speaker B: I think I was the wrong age where. When it came out. It came out 20 years ago, right, Elf? Yeah. [00:45:24] Speaker A: It's probably in the. [00:45:25] Speaker B: I think it was early 2000s. [00:45:27] Speaker A: Oh, maybe even a little longer. Yeah. [00:45:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I feel like if I was a little bit younger, I would have connected more to it. [00:45:34] Speaker A: It's a great movie, man. It's annoying. What's annoying? [00:45:38] Speaker B: I think the amount of times we watched it early on, it was like, every event you go to, we're gonna watch Elf. Oh, gosh. [00:45:47] Speaker A: So it's just a volume thing. Probably. You're not annoyed by the character. A lot of people take issue with, like, the last 20 minutes of the movie. That gets into, like, this really classic Santa saving Christmas kind of a thing. [00:46:01] Speaker B: Rockets on the sled and all that. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Yeah. It gets out of, like, the fish out of water story. That's pretty fun in that. But I even find that fun. It's whimsical. [00:46:08] Speaker C: It's Christmas. [00:46:09] Speaker A: It's Christmas. [00:46:10] Speaker B: But Home Alone, it's like. It's a perfect Christmas. [00:46:13] Speaker C: Quintessential. [00:46:15] Speaker B: It's perfect. [00:46:16] Speaker A: Home Alone is perfect, guys. [00:46:18] Speaker C: The Tin Pan Theater is showing it on Christmas Day. [00:46:21] Speaker B: What? [00:46:21] Speaker C: I might go. [00:46:22] Speaker A: Yeah, you should. [00:46:23] Speaker B: That sounds like a hot, sweaty room. [00:46:26] Speaker C: Ew. [00:46:27] Speaker B: It's a small, small room. And I bet that thing will be so popular. [00:46:31] Speaker A: Yes. [00:46:31] Speaker B: I think Christmas Day is a big movie day for people. [00:46:34] Speaker A: It is a big movie day for people. So I'll throw this one out. This was not. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Let us know how that goes, though. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Within Home Alone, that we all agree is a classic. And I would take Home Alone over Elf, too, but I also love Elf. What's more important to the movie? The. The villains played by the people that they are. Joe Pesci. And I always forget the other guy's name. [00:46:53] Speaker C: Oh, poor other guy. [00:46:54] Speaker A: Right. They're. They're just. They're perfect. Or the. So do you replace the actors or do you replace the score? What would crush the movie more? Replacing the actors of the score. Who's more important? [00:47:08] Speaker B: Oh, man. I think you could replace everything else but the score and Joe Pesci and the other guy. [00:47:16] Speaker C: Because who composed it? Ev. Remind us. [00:47:18] Speaker A: John Williams. [00:47:20] Speaker B: And we're back. And we're back. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Oh, the best theme. [00:47:25] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't think you can take either away. Because you're describing the two things that. That make the whole movie. [00:47:30] Speaker A: I know. That's what makes the question literally nothing else matters. [00:47:32] Speaker B: Macaulay Culkin. [00:47:34] Speaker A: Yeah, but the score, man, the music. [00:47:39] Speaker C: I can hear it right now. [00:47:43] Speaker A: It is so good and, like, makes you want to laugh and cry at the same time. Oh, my gosh. [00:47:48] Speaker B: And again, you take out Joe Pesci. Like, it's just not. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Yeah. The answer is you could replace the villains with somebody else, but you have to have the score room with you. Did you vote on that one, Lindsay? [00:47:56] Speaker C: I. I can't decide. It's like choosing a favorite child. I won't. [00:48:02] Speaker A: One of the three of us grew up with heavy rotations of political talk radio and sports talk radio. [00:48:09] Speaker B: I want you guys to guess who it is. [00:48:12] Speaker A: Real Christmas tree or fake trees? Artificial trees. [00:48:17] Speaker B: I used to be real passionate about this. [00:48:18] Speaker A: I can tell we're getting older because the response was not immediate. Yeah, I. I used to care a lot. [00:48:25] Speaker B: I mean, we'd go like, snowmobile into the forest and then drag a tree home on the back of a snowmobile. That was in my 20s, before kids. And now I'm all in on a artificial tree that I can pull down and get, you know, set up in five minutes or less. That's so lame. [00:48:43] Speaker C: I'm similar. Yeah, similar. I was all about real trees because we didn't really have those in Albuquerque growing up. We didn't really have, like, we had Christmas tree lots, but that wasn't the thing. Everyone had a fake tree. So when I moved here, I was all about the real tree, the smell, all the things. But those pine needles, man, it's kind of a deal breaker for me. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Fire hazards. [00:49:03] Speaker C: I think I still find pine needles in my home. And we've had a fake tree for like four, four years, maybe five hazards. [00:49:10] Speaker B: What about you, Ben? [00:49:12] Speaker A: Real trees, guys. Yeah, you gotta go real trees. It's the smell that trumps everything else that you guys just talked about. I know the leaves are not ideal or the. The needles are not ideal. And even the going out has been a little ruined by my kids. That we've got about 10 minutes of a good experience hunting for a tree and then the rest of it sucks. But this smell overrules all of those things. It's important to have the real smell. [00:49:37] Speaker B: You know, you can just. [00:49:38] Speaker A: Nope, nope. It doesn't work. [00:49:40] Speaker B: No, I'm not saying artificially. You can get pine needles, pine cones, and you can just set them in your house or garland. [00:49:48] Speaker C: Real garland. We get that. [00:49:50] Speaker A: You guys are still wrong. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Justin, Real tree, artificial sticking in real. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:49:58] Speaker B: You guys are the purists. [00:49:59] Speaker A: May get a tie here. The Grinch or Evan based on all these responses. [00:50:05] Speaker B: I will not choose between my two favorite children. [00:50:08] Speaker A: Pumpkin pie or pecan pie. [00:50:10] Speaker C: Oh, I think pumpkin. [00:50:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:12] Speaker B: Does anyone like? [00:50:13] Speaker A: For sure. [00:50:13] Speaker B: I feel I put pecan pie. Not as bad, but in there with, like, minced meat pies. [00:50:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:20] Speaker B: On the dessert table. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Like mince. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Well, I love a meat, like meat pie. Me too. Delicious. As part of your meal. [00:50:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:28] Speaker B: But when it's like pumpkin pie, strawberry rhubarb, and then a mincemeat pie. No one's eating the mincemeat at dessert. Come on. [00:50:37] Speaker A: No, for sure. It should not be just because they say pie, you know, chicken pot pie. That's dessert. That's not a dessert. [00:50:44] Speaker B: Get it off the dessert table. [00:50:45] Speaker C: Pecan pie is dessert. [00:50:46] Speaker A: No. Pecan pie. [00:50:47] Speaker B: No, I know, but I just like it so little. I would put it in the same category. [00:50:50] Speaker A: Right, right. Yeah. You said pumpkin. Right. I'm going pumpkin. My dad is the only one that just adores pecan pie. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Really? [00:50:57] Speaker A: Can somebody make it pecan pie? It should not be as sweet as it is. Pecan pies are so sweet. [00:51:03] Speaker B: It's over sweet. And it's like the texture of, like, cockroaches when you bite into a pecan. [00:51:08] Speaker A: Well, cockroaches. So you don't like pecans? [00:51:12] Speaker B: I don't like pecans. [00:51:13] Speaker C: I like pecans. [00:51:14] Speaker A: I like pecans. [00:51:15] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:51:16] Speaker A: They're little. Little dry. [00:51:16] Speaker B: They can be a little dry, though. What is. [00:51:20] Speaker A: It's not meat. [00:51:20] Speaker B: No, it's like. I just looked it up. It's. [00:51:23] Speaker A: This is Justin talking for the listener. [00:51:25] Speaker B: Citrus. [00:51:26] Speaker A: It's not. It's not fruit, nuts, Brandy. [00:51:29] Speaker C: That's dessert. [00:51:29] Speaker A: It's not a mince. [00:51:30] Speaker B: So that's why it goes on the dessert. Yeah. Okay, so maybe it's the name. Maybe I've never actually tried it. I'm just like. No one wants your mincemeat pie, Aunt. Whoever. [00:51:40] Speaker A: No mince meat should have meat in it. Doesn't have meat. [00:51:42] Speaker B: It doesn't have meat ever. No, I don't think so. This is stupid. [00:51:45] Speaker A: Wow. That's. They don't get to call it meat then. [00:51:48] Speaker B: Australia, New Zealand. Really good meat pies for, like, meals, though. And I think every culture has their own version of, like, a calzone or a meat pie or. I'm all in. Where's that lunch spot? You know? [00:52:02] Speaker A: Right. [00:52:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:03] Speaker A: We gotta have one. That's the next cultural direction that we need to go in. Ben. Yeah. Two more questions. Secret Santa or white elephant? [00:52:11] Speaker C: White Elephant. [00:52:11] Speaker B: White elephant. [00:52:12] Speaker A: Why? [00:52:13] Speaker B: It's more fun. [00:52:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:15] Speaker A: There's Nothing worse, though, than a white elephant where 20 of the people don't get it, and somehow we still have, like, they brought something nice. [00:52:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:23] Speaker A: And they're really bummed out about getting your broken golf club that you brought. [00:52:29] Speaker B: Sure. [00:52:30] Speaker A: You know, like, that's the in. And it ends up being a gift exchange where it's like, two hours of awkwardness of people being kind of grumpy on the other side, and then you're stealing the. Anyway, But I'm with you. White elephant, Secret Santa. Last too long. All the secrets are exhausting. [00:52:46] Speaker C: Too much pressure. [00:52:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so this is. We'll go another movie. You want another movie? 1. Or do you want, like, a general holiday winter fun kind of question? [00:53:01] Speaker B: Do winter fun, and then let's wrap up. [00:53:04] Speaker A: Winter fun. Okay. Snowball fighter. Building a snowman. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Building a snowman. Because I. I've. I've done both with my kids wanting to do both. And the snowman is much more like it's a project. There's an end to it. Snowball fights. Is the snow good enough for snowballs? Probably not. So then you're just, like, tossing, you know? That's what it sounds like. So stupid. Build a snowman, man. Give me something that at the end of the day, we'd be like, yes, that is what we built. [00:53:42] Speaker A: So you present a bend problem with both of those. There's a bend problem. [00:53:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:46] Speaker A: And that. I feel like we don't have packable snow that often. [00:53:48] Speaker B: It's a lot of dry. [00:53:49] Speaker A: Dry, like, 90% of snow. [00:53:51] Speaker B: Cold, dry snow. Yeah. Yeah. [00:53:54] Speaker A: And so I had the opposite experience where my daughter really wanted me to build a snowman. I just could not understand why it couldn't be done. I was like, well, the only way to do this is if I'm gonna get the hose out now and kind of mist the snow real quick. [00:54:07] Speaker B: Rough day in the snow when you're misting your snow. [00:54:09] Speaker A: I'm going snowball fight. Lindsay. [00:54:11] Speaker C: I say neither, because I don't want my hands to get cold. [00:54:15] Speaker B: But as you sit by your artificial tree. [00:54:19] Speaker C: Yep. I'm gonna stay inside in the warm, dry. But my go, my kids will build a snowman out of the most minimal amount of snow you've ever seen in your life and just use anything they can find for the face. [00:54:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:33] Speaker C: It's the greatest. [00:54:34] Speaker A: That's pretty cute. [00:54:34] Speaker C: That's the greatest. [00:54:35] Speaker A: That's pretty cute. I'll give it to you. I still take a snowball fight, but I can admit that. Okay. This is a 3er hot cocoa. Apple cider or eggnog. [00:54:51] Speaker C: None are great. Just saying. [00:54:54] Speaker B: None. [00:54:54] Speaker A: You can't go for any of those. [00:54:56] Speaker B: It's all very sweet. It's very, very sweet. I like a cold apple cider in the fall as a beverage. Yeah. Like out of a jug. [00:55:11] Speaker A: You know? Have you not seen cinnamon in a mug? And you. [00:55:15] Speaker B: No, I'll take apple cider cold. Yeah, it's like apple juice. [00:55:21] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just apple juice. [00:55:23] Speaker B: No, there's. I think they leave more of the apple skin in there, so there's. It's more textured. Guys, I've never heard of this. [00:55:33] Speaker A: I mean, I know it's a thing. [00:55:36] Speaker B: I get that. The worst. The worst is the powdered apple cider into hot water. That's garbage. [00:55:42] Speaker A: I give you guys three fairly tasty options, and Lindsey's like, this all sucks. And you're like, give me cold apple skin cider. We're showing our age here, you guys. Fake trees all. That's too sweet. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Elf's annoying. I like to go back to the original question. I do like a little bit of eggnog. Like, if you're drinking a whole, like, a tall dinner glass of eggnog, you've got a problem. [00:56:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I judge you for that, for sure. [00:56:12] Speaker B: But no, like, you know, 3 ounces, 4 ounces of eggnog shooter. Yeah. Basically, that's all you should be drinking. [00:56:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:20] Speaker B: The amount of sugar in, like, I don't know how original. Eggnog. Like, the actual eggnog, historically, was that that sweet? [00:56:28] Speaker A: I don't think so. I don't know that any of these are that sweet. So it's funny. Apple cider to me, is not ultra sweet. In my. In my memory, how I think about it, of those three, it's the least sweet. But you're right. You shake that little packet into a thing of water, and you got. You got problems. [00:56:42] Speaker B: That's a lot of sugar in there. And I. I don't care for hot chocolate. [00:56:48] Speaker C: Hot chocolate with peppermint schnapps. That's delicious. [00:56:51] Speaker A: Okay. [00:56:52] Speaker C: On Christmas morning, some. [00:56:53] Speaker A: To cut the sweet there. It's kind of sweet on sweet, isn't it? [00:56:58] Speaker C: Keep me warm on those cold days. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Who was raised in Albuquerque around this table? Could you guess? I'm so cold. I'm so cold. [00:57:07] Speaker A: I know what Lindsay's taking to the Tin Pan Theater on Christmas Day. I'll tell you that. [00:57:10] Speaker C: They'll probably have it for sale. That'd be great. [00:57:12] Speaker A: They probably will. You know, this worked out even better than I hoped. Yeah. Yeah, that was great. [00:57:16] Speaker B: That was some lively debate. [00:57:18] Speaker A: I know. [00:57:20] Speaker B: Okay, we gotta end this. [00:57:21] Speaker A: Traditions and stuff. That's a really ripe for debate. It is. I mean, when the decor goes up, when it comes down. [00:57:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's all low stakes, but big opinion. That's what we like in a debate. [00:57:33] Speaker A: Which is why you and I are so vanilla on Christmas Eve. We don't want to ruin it. [00:57:38] Speaker B: We're reading the friggin story. Yeah, that's what we're doing. We'll be as forgettable as possible. Oh my goodness. Hey, happy Thanksgiving, everybody. Yeah, I think this will come out right before Thanksgiving and hope you have a wonderful time with friends and family. And we'll be back in Advent for some Advent readings as we get closer to Christmas. [00:57:58] Speaker A: I'm gonna do brisket on things. Oh.