Rahab and Jericho

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message in this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming. [00:00:17] Speaker B: And I'm Evan Yorker. Hi, Ben. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Hi. [00:00:20] Speaker B: What's going on? [00:00:21] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:00:22] Speaker B: Three weeks. [00:00:22] Speaker A: We got a lot to catch up on, man. We've been in Turkey, in Spain, and I've been running the church alone. [00:00:29] Speaker B: You weren't even here last week. What are you talking about? Justin's leading the church. It's true. He's not. [00:00:37] Speaker A: But it was. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Lindsay, It's a team. It's a team. [00:00:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Team of people. That's why we can be gone. We do church as a team for a while. [00:00:44] Speaker A: Lindsay, would you be up with that? No, just go for it. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Two weeks, no rules. [00:00:50] Speaker A: You could. [00:00:50] Speaker B: No. [00:00:52] Speaker A: It's like a setup for a terrible. [00:00:54] Speaker B: Summer movie or a reality show. Yeah, Yeah. I was in Turkey, and you know how, like, there's pilgrimages. I felt like I was following in your footsteps, Ben. Oh. Everywhere we went, I was like, Ben. [00:01:07] Speaker A: Fleming was once here. Yeah. So you went to Turkey. You did Ephesus, Laodicea, Heropolis, and Colossae. [00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:01:16] Speaker A: Was Colossae still just a pile of dirt? [00:01:18] Speaker B: It was still a pile of dirt. Okay. [00:01:19] Speaker A: Shockingly, pretty funny. [00:01:20] Speaker B: But there's, like, biting flies. Swarms of flies on Colossae, and so not pleasant. We got out of there quickly. [00:01:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:28] Speaker B: But. Yeah. Fascinating how things are just unexcavated, waiting to be, you know, dug up. Yeah. [00:01:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it is. It's right there. Then they still have, like, the little. It's not a hut, but it looks like a little tiny mobile office or something that they put out there to monitor. [00:01:44] Speaker B: Are they taking tickets here or it's just a dirt pile. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Yeah, we had the same. [00:01:48] Speaker B: That was fascinating. [00:01:48] Speaker A: There's nothing to take or anything. I guess you could bring your own shovel and start the experience. [00:01:52] Speaker B: That'd be something I did when we went to Hieropolis, which is in the Bible. Yep. Most people have not heard this. I didn't know that Hieropolis is in the Bible, but if I think you guys were in a hurry and so we went up further into the ruins, I think, than you guys did last year, and evidently, the apostle Philip was crucified in Hieropolis, and then he was buried in Hieropolis, and they only discovered his tomb, and I think it was 2015. [00:02:22] Speaker A: No way. Yeah. [00:02:23] Speaker B: So, like, in real time, they're still discovering these, like, major pilgrimage sites from antiquity. It's fascinating. [00:02:30] Speaker A: We did not See that part? Yeah. We were in a little bit of a hurry. And it's a walk. You did the walk up the limestone hot springs. I can't remember. That's called something specific. I can't remember what it is. [00:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker A: And then Hieropolis is on top of the hill. [00:02:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So visually crazy. [00:02:45] Speaker A: Isn't it wild? [00:02:46] Speaker B: It's like a Star wars set or something. [00:02:48] Speaker A: It looks like you walk up a snowy hill to then get to this desert climate, ancient city. [00:02:55] Speaker B: It's. [00:02:56] Speaker A: It's pretty crazy. [00:02:57] Speaker B: It's wild and. [00:02:58] Speaker A: And slippery. [00:02:59] Speaker B: We should put pictures of it in the show notes. But it looks. It looks like it would just be like a completely slick the whole way. And when it's wet in the pools and everything. It is. But then it's like a. It's like a shell texture. It's very, very strange. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. It is like eggshell. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:17] Speaker A: Kind of a feeling. You're right. [00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah. It's weird. [00:03:18] Speaker A: When we got up there, we kind of explored like that bathhouse area and then the entry, which is just funny how they structured it because the entryway to the city had these big, big arches and then immediately followed by dozens of toilets. I guess the idea, once you get to the top. [00:03:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:36] Speaker A: You went traveling for a while, and now the first things first. You know, it's like, here's the entrance of a city and welcome to the locker room. Go ahead and take this side. [00:03:43] Speaker B: It's. [00:03:44] Speaker A: But that was. Heropolis was huge. Everything that they have built out there, and clearly we didn't even walk all of it. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. These are massive ancient cities, especially for the time. I mean, I think laodicea is like 5 km square, which is. I mean, that's a big space. Yeah. You know, when we're talking these little. I think of them as like ancient villages, but they're. They're large, large areas. Yeah. [00:04:07] Speaker A: Laodicea and Hierapolis felt sprawled but fascinating. [00:04:10] Speaker B: To be in kind of this secondary holy land outside of Israel. There's more, I think, New Testament sites in Turkey than anywhere. And to be in those spaces and. Yeah, it's just fascinating. [00:04:21] Speaker A: So we haven't talked about this. Did you say in one of your sermons yesterday that you ran into Adnan. [00:04:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:26] Speaker A: And his girlfriend or partner. Yeah. [00:04:28] Speaker B: Let's talk about that story. Tell us what happened last year with Adnan and his girlfriend. [00:04:32] Speaker A: Yeah. So we are, Aisha, we are in Turkey in this kind of major city square area, and we're honestly looking around, trying to figure out where we're going to eat. But the square, it's literally rectangle is huge. Huge and surrounded by these Turkish flags. And it's definitely, you know, this important piece of the city or whatever. So we're standing in it and we're kind of all alone. And your brother Brent is being a tourist and, you know, putting up his camera on this thing. And Gonzalo was just a little bit more worried than the rest of us the whole trip, in terms. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Just like, for safety. [00:05:07] Speaker A: For safety. And like, you know, we're in the idea that maybe we're in a nation that's not quite so sympathetic toward Christians or people from the States. And so Gonzalo was a little jumpy. This guy comes up and he kind of like touches him on the shoulder and just says hello. And Gonzalo's like, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I just. [00:05:27] Speaker B: I can't lie. [00:05:28] Speaker A: And the guy comes over to me after a little while and he goes. And after a couple minutes of conversation, he goes, is that your friend? He's very nervous. And we ended up spending the next three hours with these people. We went to dinner and we watched a soccer game, and they tried to get us into a mosque really late at night because it was a major one. That was. That looked interesting. And he was like, oh, my gosh. Well, I'll find somebody to get you in. Really kind couple that. [00:05:58] Speaker B: He's. [00:05:58] Speaker A: He'll comment to me on Instagram or something sometimes. So you ran into this guy? [00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess Brent has stayed in touch over WhatsApp. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Okay. [00:06:06] Speaker B: In the year since that happened. Yeah. And so Brent let him know, I guess, that we were going to be in town. Oh, he did. And so we had coffee, the three of us, Brent and I and Adnan. And then late that night, we came back together for English Club, which is run by this great guy, Yashir. And he's not a Christian, he's a Muslim man. And he hosts this group. And they have this coffee shop. It's a massive coffee shop. There's a university in this town. And so thousands of young people come out to this row of coffee shops. And so in this massive restaurant, they have this whole wing or the side of the room where they have a projector, and they bring in presenters and they present on something in English, can be whatever. I think the week before we were there, someone talked about their dentistry career. They don't care what the topic is. They just want it in English. And then they converse in English. And they really enjoy having other English speakers to talk to as they're learning English. So some of the church members there from the church go to this English club. So we get to go. Danny Nichols, who is on our kids team, she presented about adoption and her family. It was really beautiful. She did a great job. And then we just talk. We talk in English. And so Adnan and Aisha came to that. And they're just the loveliest. They're so sweet. Right. So wonderful. In fact, when we go to leave, Adnan gave us all hugs, and I tried to going for a normal hug, you know, but I could tell, like, he wants a warm. [00:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:38] Speaker B: So. So you. I really embraced him. Then he goes. He goes, no, no. We have to get to where our hearts are touching. Yeah. He angled his chest and mine to where our hearts were in line. He's like. So we can feel the heartbeat. It was the sweetest thing. Very, very sweet. But as we sat and we talked with them, and this is what was so striking for me. And I talked about this a lot yesterday. There's just no baggage when it comes to the idea of Christianity. And so, you know, if you were to go on the street and evangelize and talk about Christianity here, most people have experience with that, or they have a preconceived notion about that, or they have baggage here. They're just. They've never talked to anybody about Christianity, likely. I'm not certain of that, but there's just no baggage. And so when we talk about Jesus, who also shows up in their Koran as a prophet. So when we talk about Jesus, they have this kind of vague understanding of the Muslim interpretation of who Jesus was. But then we talk about the Christian gospel, and they lean in. And so Aisha, since you guys met them in that square, she's been going on YouTube and seeking out worship music. [00:08:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:51] Speaker B: So she's like, I love Christian music, and she's referencing worship music. So she starts showing us, and she's listening to. What is that? Same God, that song. Oh, yeah, yeah. Same God by elevation, and then the Creed, or I believe by Hillsong, which is the. [00:09:07] Speaker A: What a crazy one to latch onto, by the way. [00:09:10] Speaker B: And she was latched on. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:11] Speaker B: I mean, she held up. Not only showed us the video of Hillsong performing the Creed. [00:09:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:17] Speaker B: But then she holds up the lyrics to the Creed. So it wasn't just that she was moved by the music or the sound. She's also diving into, like, what they're saying, and she held that up, and she said, this is what I believe, which she was also in Those conversations with us kind of pushing back against Christian theology and saying, but you believe in three gods, not one. And so it's not like she was saying, I'm a Christian now, but she was so moved by this song and the heart of worship that she was hearing on YouTube. Even when she read the lyrics, she was like, yes, something in me agrees with this. And it was so surreal to be speaking to a table filled with Muslim people, and we're having these very, very open conversations about the gospel, and they're leaning in and, like, with tears in their eyes, being like, I feel something whenever I hear this song. And asking, like, genuine questions about, like, how. How come God can suffer in the Christian faith? And so being able to talk through, like, the scandal of grace, the scandal of the cross, and why God suffers in Christ because we suffer and all that. It was just, like, the most beautiful evangelistic moment I've ever been a part of. Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker A: And that's the stuff, right? Like, that's pretty sweet, the idea that she would latch onto the Creed. I believe this, I believe, I guess, is what the song is called. But you said it yesterday. It's literally just a musical repeating of the Nicene Crete. That's all that it is. [00:10:41] Speaker B: And Nicaea. You should look up, Lindsay, if you can. Where is the modern city that was Nicaea in Turkey. And just the connections, it was so apparent, even that conversation, like, man, we are in the neighborhood where all this stuff sprang up. I mean, the Nicene Creed was written here. Half the New Testament was written to here. I mean, it's just. It's stunning when you think about how. How little the gospel is present now in Turkey and how ripe it is to come roaring back. [00:11:11] Speaker A: And my experience was similar to yours, obviously, even with the exact same people. Well, we sat down with dinner for them for a while and didn't explore to the depth that you have. I think it was a little bit more of, like, scraping off the. The edges of like, oh, no, we're not like that. You know, oh, Americans are kind of like. We're like, yeah, well, not really us. And Christians are like, that's not really us. And we kind of began that little conversation. But that was a lot of our experience in Western Turkey was not antagonistic. It wasn't, you know, whatever. They wanted to show us the mosque around the corner. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker A: And they were curious about American life as well as our Christian faith and a lot of real openness and curiosity. And they were telling us if you went to Eastern Turkey, you'd probably Experience like, a little bit more of, like, a conservative, traditional Islam, but it didn't really exist where they were at. It was a lot more like, yeah, we go to mosque a couple times a year. It sounded like Easter and Christmas Christians, you know, and they're like. And it's. You know, it's fine. And we hang out in this part of our culture, but there is an openness to it. And it's so. It doesn't seem like an antagonistic region toward the gospel. It seems like an unreachable but open. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's such a culture of hospitality amongst Turks that as you're conversing, you're also experiencing their hospitality. And so even retelling the story, I have to give the caveat. And my whole point wasn't just like, come on, let's get to a conversion here. It was like, these are lovely people who've welcomed us into their neighborhood, and we are having real deep, rich conversation. And so I was so grateful for them. And I think that's so important. I think when we travel or when we lean into evangelism or these moments is. It can't be transactional. Otherwise, I don't know. It's yucky. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So just I felt like we met new friends, you know, we met new friends. Yeah. [00:13:09] Speaker A: That was helpful. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Across the world. Yeah. [00:13:11] Speaker A: Nicaea. Do we have an answer on this? [00:13:13] Speaker C: We do. It is now called Iznik in the Bursa province of northwestern Italy. Turkey. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Close to Italy. Okay. [00:13:21] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:13:22] Speaker B: Northwest. Yeah. [00:13:23] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a great experience, though. And what an interesting. I think it's a piece of, you know, we talk about, like, mission work from the church in the US I don't know that there's a lot of stories like this. It just fits an interesting little niche of. It's not Third World, and it's not this really angry, antagonistic toward Christians, like, church in the underground kind of a feeling. But I think a lot of really beautiful work can be done through conversation around dinner tables and through mutual hospitality. It's just an interesting way that I think Americans could probably embrace of, like, this is a way that we can move through the world in some of these places. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's wonderful. Another cool thing that happened there. We were taken to the site of the new church. I think maybe you guys went last year. It had an old building on it. Then while you were there, they got the permit to tear down the old building. And then while we were there, we prayed on the site for the church, and they'd been waiting for forever for the permit to build. And we prayed on the site with Pastor Mehmet. And then it was less than 48 hours later, he texts Brent and was like, oh, my goodness, the permit just came through. We can start digging the foundation in the next four days. And it was just like. And I was the last one to pray over the site for the permit. So, I mean, you do the math. [00:14:43] Speaker A: The last pre permit prayer. What a gift you have. That happened while we were there. The permit to take it down happened while we were there. [00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's cool. [00:14:53] Speaker A: Funny. Anyway, Gonzalo broke the news. Did I ever tell you that? Because we had hung out with Mehmet, the pastor there for lunch, and he had gotten the news and was like, this is amazing. And then we had a church service that night that Gonzalo was talking at. And in the middle of his thing, he's like, and you guys have a permit to tear it down? And the church was like, what? He brought it to the church as the new news. [00:15:16] Speaker B: That's amazing. [00:15:17] Speaker A: The people from Westside Church. [00:15:19] Speaker B: That's amazing. Do you have. [00:15:20] Speaker A: What's your experience like in, like, the ancient sites, you know, Ephesus and they. Even in some places I know in Laodicea, there's markings of, like, this is where churches were located based on the etchings in the stone. Is that, like, a big deal for you to experience those places? Do you have, like, a stirring because of those things? I don't know. I'm not asking the question very well. [00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I probably. I feel less, like, emotionally moved in the moment, but I love the history. So maybe it's not something where I'm just, like, weeping because I'm in these spaces, but when I go to a Laodicea, you know, and there's. You probably saw it. There's like, this door frame. And of course, they dug everything up and then had to kind of rebuild things because it was just in ruins. But traditionally that would have been the door where Jesus, via John says, I stand at the door and knock. He's right into this church, referencing, like, that door frame, you know, so whether that's just tradition or if it's actually true, it's. That's really impacting when you're in those spaces and be like, wow, this is. This is where it all started. But, yeah, I don't know that it moves me emotionally, but I'm just like, I love. I love seeing it. I love being in it. I love having the memories of it. But more from that, like, fascinating historical side. What about you? [00:16:42] Speaker A: I always appreciate that it makes me feel small. [00:16:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:16:45] Speaker A: I think that's the. My favorite part is all of us have a little bit of that narcissism, right? Where it's. This is the time and the thing that I'm doing is the most important, and then to connect with something that's like, a lot of people have been doing this for a long time, and what we do is beautiful, but it's certainly a brick inside of this larger structure that we get to be a part of, and I'm almost relieved by that. [00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker A: Like, this story is so much bigger than me, and it feels like the thing that I do in the sermon that I preach is so massive. I don't take it lightly. But there's a relief that comes from, like, we're a part of this bigger thing. And in Laodicea, specifically, you can walk through the. The church, right. And they have posted, like, the 50 rules for expectations and behavior. Like, and who can come and go. That just kind of made me laugh. Like, man, look how fast this happened. This happened way back. And immediately there was like, these people can come in. These people can't. Yeah, you got to be like this if you're going to do that and if you're going to get baptized. [00:17:46] Speaker B: Not too much dancing. Yeah, yeah. It's all there. [00:17:48] Speaker A: This is amazing. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Happens so quickly. The. The other moment that really struck me, and it did move me, was seeing the theater in Ephesus. In the Book of Acts, Paul has this showdown with the silversmiths, who are mad because the message of Jesus is going to potentially take their business away because they make trinkets in honor of the goddess Diana. [00:18:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:11] Speaker B: So the Book of Acts talks about they all gather in the theater and they're shouting, great. Is Diana of Ephesus. And it creates this riot. And Paul is like, I got to get in there to the theater and talk them down. And then the people are like, you're gonna get killed if you do that. Don't do that. So it's this very dramatic moment in Acts, and I always thought of it as, like, this small, indoor, you know, like, playhouse. Yeah. Well, you go to Ephesus, and it's the largest amphitheater in the ancient world. [00:18:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:41] Speaker B: And it seats over 25,000 people. And so you're standing there looking at that and like, oh, my goodness. So there were, like, 20,000 silversmiths shouting, for the downfall of Paul. [00:18:53] Speaker A: Yeah. In. [00:18:54] Speaker B: You know, and so to be in those spaces it just, like. It just brings whole new, you know, understanding of, like, the book of acts and all this stuff. So that was really, really cool. [00:19:04] Speaker A: Those amphitheaters are crazy. [00:19:05] Speaker B: They're crazy. [00:19:06] Speaker A: They are legitimately. They make me marvel. And we were doing. We were in big ones and then there were other small ones. Then you're in Laodicea, and there's two that are located pretty close to each other, and one's about half the size of the other, but it's like 5 and 10,000. They're just kind of throwing these up all over the world. It is spectacular and steep often in cases. And so I'm starting to go 20,000 people. One guy falls at the top and knocks down how many along the way? Like, it's an impressive thing. And I did chuckle. We left the. We were leaving Ephesus. And then you walk out the gift shop, which is right next to where the silversmiths were chanting for Diana. It's like, oh, little did they know. They would have been fine. You know, the gift shops continued. [00:19:48] Speaker B: I got a Diana keychain, actually. No, I didn't. Oh, my goodness. [00:19:54] Speaker A: It's cool, though. It is those moments. And you're right, it doesn't get talked about how the Holy Land does, you know, Jerusalem and all that, which I understand. But my gosh, when it comes to the movement of the church after the death and the resurrection of Jesus, this is where it's at, right? [00:20:09] Speaker B: Yeah, it's really Paul's country. Right. As he was moving around. But, yeah, very, very inspiring and so glad I did it. I think I'm reminded of the incredible value of getting folks in our church, maybe not everybody, but folks that want to, into different places and to meet other people and to hear different language and to see other contexts. The perspective that that brings is worth whatever it takes to get to these places. So super valuable. And I'm hopeful that we continue to inspire a global view of what we're all about, you know, for good reason. We're planted here in a community, and so we love this community and we funnel a lot of resources to it. Also helpful to have that context and that perspective of what's going on beyond just the needs of this block, you. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Know, and interesting to connect the dots that are kind of extra biblical to a degree. You know, there's this story of the church beginning, and then we've got letters from Paul, and then there's a lot of distance that doesn't exist in the Bible where we can learn about the history of the Church. And we did a church history series not that long ago. And I think people enjoyed this kind of. It's not jumping from the death and the resurrection of Jesus to and here's my life today. And there's so much to be learned in the gap that exists in there, whether it's beautiful or difficult things. The Crusades to the church in Ephesus and how Christianity essentially migrated out of Asia Minor, that whole area. There's a lot to be learned. So I'm with you. I would love to continue to take people on these different journeys, so to speak, to understand with greater breadth the history of the church and where we fit in it. [00:21:56] Speaker B: It is discipleship, you know, it does make us understand the richness of the Christian faith in a way that I think causes me to lean in, you know, to your point, if all we think of is, like, Jesus died for me, and now I worship in this mega church, we're missing a lot of things in between. [00:22:14] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff in there somewhere. [00:22:16] Speaker B: Ye. A lot of. [00:22:17] Speaker A: Has to be some good stuff. [00:22:18] Speaker B: A lot of stuff. [00:22:20] Speaker A: So you had a pretty distinctly New Testament kind of experience. Right. And then we were finishing up our longest series in a while. [00:22:27] Speaker B: Yeah, Eight weeks. [00:22:28] Speaker A: That was specifically nine weeks, if you. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Count Mike talking about the Ten Commandments. Yeah. [00:22:32] Speaker A: Which we. We did. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:35] Speaker A: We had. We did a series in Exodus that went through a bit of that. We did Exiles right through the Babylonian Exile. That was a good handful of weeks. Five, six. But this is kind of a long form, so I guess. How'd it go? I guess is my question. What do you think, Lindsay? You jump in on this too. What was. Did that work? [00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And if you just listen to this podcast, the series was stories from the Old Testament that maybe you've heard in Sunday school. If you grew up in church and re examining those and re examining what the takeaways should be. When we read the old stories, like David and Goliath and Noah and all. [00:23:14] Speaker A: These, we tried to expand it out. And this is kind of the last podcast in that series. Right. So what was the vibe, I guess. And how do you think it went? [00:23:23] Speaker B: I'm waiting for Lindsey. [00:23:25] Speaker C: Yeah. You two spoke the whole series? No, I thought it was great. I thought it went really well. We touched base about it not long ago and just said that one of the key takeaways that I think all of us as a team were really proud of was finding Jesus in these stories and reframing our understanding of how to read the Old Testament. In a really practical way that helps make a little bit more sense of some of the violence and, you know, hard things that we're reading about. I think to try to find Jesus in these stories and to teach our church how to do that and some of these, you know, really famous Bible characters, that's just such a win to me. I learned a lot in this series too. So that was one of the things that I loved the most for sure. It was very valuable. [00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I think if you're not looking for Jesus in the Old Testament, it becomes really difficult as a Christian to make sense of kind of the mismatch of all the kinds of writing that are present in those books. Right. From history to prophetic works to poetry to some stories like we talked about with Jonah. Satire. Many stories that people would stop, scholars would say, oh, this is mythology that's revealing a larger truth. All those pieces by looking for Jesus in every story. It can be any format, it can be any style of writing. And if we're as Christians saying, where does Jesus show up in the text? I think it becomes a guiding light for how we read the Old Testament, which is needed because it's a confusing. It's a confusing place to roam. [00:25:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think people just like quit after a little while? Maybe they grow out of this point where they take this full on literal, step by step view of the Old Testament and then they get into this point where they go, I don't know that I can get on board with like every little bit of that. But I don't want to disconnect from faith is there are a lot of people in this day and age, so to speak, that just say, look, I'm just not gonna, I'm not gonna mess around with that Old Testament stuff and Gideon and drinking from the stream and then going and winning a fight with lantern. Like this is a lot for me. I'm just gonna go ahead and skip forward and call it. Good. Do you think there's a lot of that out there? [00:25:55] Speaker B: I hope so, because yeah, I think the worst thing you can do is what. What the religious leaders were doing in Jesus day, which is becoming experts in the Old Testament scriptures and missing Jesus. That's like the worst way to go. So if you're not looking for Jesus in the Old Testament, I would prefer you just don't read it. Just stick with the New Testament, stick with the Gospels. Read the Gospel of Mark and John over and over and over again your whole life. That's far better than reading the Old Testament and trying to apply it as though we are ancient Hebrews because that's where we get in so much trouble. And I talked about this yesterday, where if we assume that we are under the old covenant and that we are party to Abraham's covenant with God, it's going to lead us to this, like, tribalistic ins justify the means, my enemies deserve death kind of approach. And that's not Jesus, because he instituted a new covenant. And so, yeah, I hope people get weirded out by the Old Testament and stop reading it until they realize, like, oh, we're supposed to be looking for where Jesus shows up in the narrative because it's pointing to him. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, really cool how you framed it yesterday. Where is what we were trying to do in all of them. But I thought it was so stark yesterday, where it was like, look, you could make this an entire sermon and an idea around the faithfulness and what it takes to walk around a city X amount of times and then shout and worship. And that was. I was always pretty much presented as a kid. And when you do this, you stand in faithfulness, the walls eventually come down and you win whatever battle you're facing. So much more interesting and compelling. And I think what we're really after, where you discussed all of that, you talked about the context of what was going to go on and how this was, you know, a massive killing, basically. And then to stop and go and look over here and here's like this little. It was almost like you were pointing out the tiniest sprout in the middle of a garden and going, but look at this, this little piece, See that little bit of green? That's what is going to eventually become the gospel that we know down the line. And it was Rahab, the most unlikely, the prostitute. What a spectacular framing that I think encapsulated the whole series. But then the whole way we need. [00:28:09] Speaker B: To treat the Bible well and literally. That metaphor literally is used with the shoot of Jesse, which is that line of David. And this is Jesse's great grandmother, who is the great great grandmother of David. And so that imagery is there, like that sprout that will become the line of Jesus. That sprout, that is the gospel and the covenant that we all live in. Actually, it's her. It's Rahab. It's someone who puts their faith blindly in this God that she's only heard rumors of. And through that faith and obedience, nothing else seems to matter. Her labels, her profession, her background, her ethnicity, all of that is secondary to how God sees Her faith. And so I want to internalize that more than I want to internalize how do I use God to hurt my enemies. Yeah. [00:29:11] Speaker A: And the best part is that it's not skirting around the issue to do so, because we get to see Scripture from the. This greater perspective. And yeah, maybe at one place in time in history, if we found ourselves pre Jesus, there's a try, there's an attempt to understand God through those stories in a way that might make sense. But with our understanding of Jesus, with the benefit of the death and the resurrection understanding grace, we get to see it with these through lines that happen all the way because Jesus shows up in such profound ways. And I just love that it was kind of this direct symbolism. Jonah, of course, like, we talked about being the most direct and how he's in the belly of a whale in three days and they cast lots and all this stuff, but this was even just a little bit sweeter, you know, the seed of Jesse coming from an unlikely source. So stinking cool and really redemptive for me, honestly, you guys, like, I was in that camp of, like, I just don't want to read this stuff anymore. I just don't want to do it. I don't want to do whatever gymnastics I have to do in order to make it work. And to not have to do that has taught me a lot. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And we were going to preach this one week one. And I'm actually really glad it came at the tail end, especially because, as I read yesterday, the genealogy of Jesus mentions Rahab. So it's like this beautiful exit of the Old Testament into the new through this unlikely prostitute that becomes our line through line, like you're saying, from the Old Testament into the new, literally through her family line. And so it kind of hopefully will stick with all of us, as kind of, you remember, last most or whatever is that all of this eventually is the stream that leads us to Jesus. And hopefully that was what we did. We didn't do it perfectly, but hopefully we did enough to where it sticks with people. [00:30:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we didn't do it perfectly, but I'm. [00:31:00] Speaker B: Which one of us did it less perfectly? Lindsay. [00:31:04] Speaker A: Lindsay just becomes the judge. [00:31:07] Speaker C: That's a new set, actually. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Now we should have a segment like this. Lindsay. Well, we just have to leave in shame. [00:31:14] Speaker B: We did a. We did a church survey a couple weeks ago. We got lots of responses, hundreds of responses. We could go through those one by one on the podcast. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Comments about us whose name was mentioned Cheek. And I'm out on that. Lindsay. You did the Lord's work and went through the comment pieces of those. [00:31:33] Speaker C: I stopped. [00:31:34] Speaker A: I don't have the strength for that. [00:31:35] Speaker C: 300 in Justin. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:37] Speaker C: How many did we stop after? Yeah, about 300. [00:31:40] Speaker B: We're going through them tomorrow. I'm gonna make us all read all of them. No, I am. I am. You. You can't. [00:31:44] Speaker A: You are. [00:31:45] Speaker B: Listen, you can't. You can do whatever you want. You can't say, all right, you guys, as a church, you've been so kind, and you don't get grouchy and complain all the time. That's so lovely. But this time, we want your feedback. And then they give it to us, and then we're like, we can't read it. [00:32:01] Speaker A: We're too soft. [00:32:02] Speaker B: It is too hard to read it. So I think we have to read it. Maybe not all of us on everyone, but we have to process. [00:32:09] Speaker A: I think there's momentum. I think we're growing, and I think we bury our heads in the sand and just talk about how this is going to keep going. [00:32:15] Speaker B: Our success is proof that we need to make no changes in how we leave. No, it's not true. [00:32:21] Speaker A: It's not true. I'm willing to take it. [00:32:24] Speaker B: No, it's good. [00:32:25] Speaker A: As long as you guys are there with me. [00:32:26] Speaker B: And I would say this, just glancing through the survey, some are very raw, but a lot of them are saying, hey, you guys are doing a great job. If there's anything, it would be this. And so I think people are kind. I don't think the heart is. I think there are churches probably where everyone's mad at each other, and I don't get the sense at all. [00:32:45] Speaker A: In all seriousness, we've gotten pretty good. Good at taking on feedback and. And measuring, not reacting to everything and saying, we need to fix everything, or, oh, my gosh, we're the greatest thing in the world. We've got a lot of reps with stuff like this. [00:32:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:58] Speaker A: So I think we can do a good job with it. But thanks to so many people for doing the service. Over 500 people. That is crazy. That many people is nuts. Yeah. Good job. [00:33:08] Speaker B: Good responses. So that's great. [00:33:10] Speaker A: So what's next? Matthew, Then Rahab, the line. [00:33:14] Speaker B: And then. [00:33:16] Speaker A: I wish it were Matthew. Right. It would make sense just to tie in. But we're going to John, which is January 1st. The most fun gospel to preach out of. [00:33:22] Speaker B: Right? It is Seven signs. Oh, come on, John, you beautiful man. [00:33:28] Speaker A: Sweet, Sweet. Did you go to his basilica? I did not. [00:33:31] Speaker B: I missed that because I was late. I Showed up three days late to the trip. So the other. The other members of the team got to see St. John's Basilica. Yeah. Yeah, I think we drove by because it's real near Ephesus, isn't it? [00:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah, it's not too far, but we're out of time. Yeah, I'm excited. I, like, I don't know about you guys. Right about now we'll jump into some vision stuff, and then Thanksgiving, it feels like right now we're kind of pulling up the blanket to get a little cozy in the church calendar. You know, the weather helps that feeling, too. But I like. I like this time of year where we're kind of built out more or less for the next, what, five months? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels good. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Yeah. John, I think we did Mark last year. We did Matthew the year before and Luke the year before. So we're way out of order. But we're ending our. Our final gospel is going to be John, which is cool because he has such a. Such a different take than the synoptics on the kind of the prophetic, you know, incarnation. Like John, one sets it up to be like, this is so much bigger than just, oh, a prophet was born and he did some cool stuff. But John is like, no, this was the word that was with God from the beginning, you know, so, yeah, I love. I love the waters we're about to go neck deep in. [00:34:51] Speaker A: And that's what makes it so preachable. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:54] Speaker A: John seems to write with such feeling and emotion. And of course, you appreciate all the rest of the guys, too, and Matthew specifically giving us the genealogy up front. And here's my first letters, and I'm going to tell you as far back as I can go, all the way down to Jesus. And it's kind of like math at the beginning for Matthew. And John just opens up with this poem. I kind of want to watch John interact with everybody else. I feel like he could be all at once really profound and extremely annoying at the same time. But in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was. [00:35:30] Speaker B: I kind of think of him as like a beetle, you know, like. Like he's just. He just singing. He's just singing. I don't. I can't do it. Can you do a Liverpool accent? [00:35:40] Speaker A: Hey, John, are we going to sing the song now? [00:35:44] Speaker B: John, are you going to sing the song? That was good. That was good. [00:35:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I need some. I need some lines right now. For me. [00:35:52] Speaker B: You just quote a Beatles song, but in. In spoken for. [00:35:55] Speaker A: I watched Yellow Submarine When I was a little kid. You ever seen that? [00:35:58] Speaker B: No. It's trippy, right? Animated. [00:36:00] Speaker A: So trippy. Dude. I should watch it again. Just to see. [00:36:03] Speaker B: Was that animated? Was that in their psychedelic phase, too? So it's like, literally trippy. [00:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I think you're supposed to be on drugs while watching it. It would make a lot of sense. There are pieces of it that felt just very Monty Python, and then other pieces of it that were like, this shouldn't make sense to anyone at all. I should rewatch it. But, gosh, I've got a sweet spot in my heart for the Beatles. You guys big Beatles fans? [00:36:26] Speaker C: I enjoy the Beatles. [00:36:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:27] Speaker A: You enjoy the Beatles. Yeah. Right? [00:36:29] Speaker C: They're great. [00:36:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. I didn't grow up with the Beatles at all. Yeah. We were not introduced to the Beatles as children. So as an adult, this is another. [00:36:38] Speaker A: Conversation point of grace. [00:36:40] Speaker B: No, we cannot. [00:36:42] Speaker C: I won't allow it too much. [00:36:43] Speaker B: We're gonna lose all seven of our remaining listeners. [00:36:46] Speaker A: Music came back up again. [00:36:48] Speaker B: But no, as an adult listening to the Beatles. I love it. [00:36:50] Speaker A: I love it. [00:36:51] Speaker B: I love it. [00:36:52] Speaker A: It's so great. [00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And we did there. The Portland Art Museum had a. All of Paul McCartney's personal photography. Really? And they turned that into an exhibit at the Portland Art Museum. That's fascinating to see. Kind of these, you know, the most famous dudes in the world at the time, maybe even now, when they would be considered that. And kind of through that, like, really, really intimate, personal take on it. Yeah, it's fascinating. [00:37:18] Speaker A: That's really cool. [00:37:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker A: I was watching the video. It popped up on my Instagram this morning of George Harrison leaving the band. Oh, yeah, you've seen that. He just gets angry and he says, I think they. They end, like a moment of the song, and he goes, I think I'm gonna leave the band. And I think Paul says, when? And he says, now. [00:37:38] Speaker B: Okay, there you go. [00:37:41] Speaker A: That's really fantastic. Maybe I could use it. I think I'm gonna leave the band. Now's the time. [00:37:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I've been to the Rock and Roll hall of Fame. Hall of. Yeah. Rock and Roll Museum. Anyway, in Cleveland, Ohio, they have the big. Where the Rock and Roll hall of Fame is. Yeah. And they have some. Just Elvis and the Beatles. All the memorabilia there is just. Just from. Again, from the history standpoint, it's like. Oh, my gosh. Like, that's the drum set they played when they were. What were they before they were the Beatles? I don't. Yeah. I'm not a super fan enough to know. But it's all there, you know, and to see all that stuff is. Is cool. Yeah. Are you into stuff you like? You like, like the tangible? Yeah, I do sports memorabilia and all that. Yeah. Okay. [00:38:26] Speaker A: It means a lot to me, actually. [00:38:28] Speaker B: It means so much. Yeah. [00:38:30] Speaker A: My first introduction to the Beatles, I think, if I'm completely honest, was the Jungle Book, which didn't end up actually being the Beatles. Right. The Vultures at the end, they were supposed to be voiced by the Beatles. And then something fell apart somewhere along the way and they couldn't do it. [00:38:44] Speaker B: I'm today years old. Those are supposed to be the Beatles. [00:38:48] Speaker A: Oh, I thought this was common knowledge. Yeah. You look at their haircuts and everything like that. The Vultures. And of course, they are a singing group with British accents and all that. [00:38:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:57] Speaker A: Gosh, I love that movie so much. The music. [00:39:01] Speaker B: It's been so long. [00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Jungle Book fan. [00:39:05] Speaker C: It's been. Not since I was a kid. [00:39:07] Speaker A: You're looking at me like, I don't know anything about that movie. [00:39:10] Speaker B: The voice actor that did Baloo, I saw this on Instagram, so, you know, it's true. But it was an interview with him and he was. They brought him in to do the voice and he was trying to do like a bear voice, like, just try your normal voice. And he just. He did. And that. That they're like, oh, that's perfect. So Baloo is just. Just that actor, just talking normal. [00:39:29] Speaker A: Great. [00:39:29] Speaker B: He has that just rich baritone. Oh, my gosh. [00:39:33] Speaker A: Amazing. It is amazing. All the voices. [00:39:35] Speaker B: So good. [00:39:36] Speaker A: What a movie. [00:39:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:38] Speaker A: We are friends we are friends to the bitter end. So the vultures sing. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:43] Speaker A: Am I way more into this movie? [00:39:44] Speaker B: You are, yes. I would never have known that that was Justin. [00:39:47] Speaker A: Minnie. No. Kind of Justin. [00:39:50] Speaker B: What. What did you grow up watching? What was the entertainment in your house? Home Alone. Home alone all year round. Yeah. A lot of the same stuff you guys have brought up. Yeah. Yeah. Less point of grace in your house, probably zero point of grace, but a lot of Home Alone. Yeah. That's awesome. All right, well, this. [00:40:15] Speaker A: This was fun. [00:40:16] Speaker B: We've drained this. Well. [00:40:20] Speaker A: We could have done Joseph and Gideon and instead we were just like, no, let's do the Beatles. [00:40:25] Speaker B: That's true. We. We haven't talked about. So give me the 7 second take on those messages. Were they good? [00:40:30] Speaker A: They were fun for me. Yeah. I guess we'll send out another survey, see other people like them. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Did they come up in the survey? We'll find out tomorrow. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. [00:40:39] Speaker A: When we read through all of the feedback. [00:40:41] Speaker B: Yeah. It's gonna be good. It's gonna be so good. [00:40:44] Speaker A: Some of it will be okay. [00:40:47] Speaker B: We will be back. I don't know when. Lindsay, are we coming back next week? [00:40:50] Speaker A: Week? [00:40:50] Speaker C: No. Oh, I think we got one. We got one in the Vision series. [00:40:54] Speaker B: And then we'll be on Christmas break. Yes.