John Weeks 8-9

[00:00:02] Speaker A: From Westside Church in Bend, Oregon. This is behind the message. In this podcast. We take you behind what we teach here at Westside. I'm Ben Fleming and that's Evan Earwicker. And we're also joined by Lindsey Parnell. You forgot for a half a second. I forgot. A full second. I forgot. Sorry. Next time. [00:00:32] Speaker B: I've noticed on stage, if you ever pause, it feels like an eternity, but it's not right. You know, if you're like, finding your place in the notes, you're like, have I been not talking for a full minute? It's probably like two seconds. Nobody cares what is. [00:00:48] Speaker A: Is it because you're kind of. Sometimes I stop and I stop long enough to complete a thought. [00:00:52] Speaker C: Thought. [00:00:52] Speaker A: And completing the thought feels like that dynamic you're talking about. Like, it's like it's time travel. Like, it's Narnia time compared to real time back in London, you know, like, it's an eternity for me and not so much for you. [00:01:05] Speaker B: It's probably the fear that you're going to lose your train of thought and then just. You just won't say anything. Right. It's that panic of, like, oh, no, I don't know what to say next. [00:01:12] Speaker A: If I stop, I'll never start again. Which, of course, the farthest thing from the truth. As if we'd ever stop talking again. There's not a chance of that. [00:01:22] Speaker B: No. We love talking. [00:01:23] Speaker A: Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. [00:01:27] Speaker B: That's funny. We have Gwen switching for us today. Gwen just went to New Zealand for two weeks. Oh, man. Two weeks. Yeah. Have you been? [00:01:41] Speaker A: You have? [00:01:41] Speaker B: I have been, yeah. I had. My oldest brother went to school there for a couple years at the University of Otago, and. And so I visited once and then went back a couple times for different ministry stuff. But, yeah, it's beautiful country. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker B: I've heard when he lived there, it was the height. Lord of the Rings had just, I think, just come out. Like, the Return of the King had just premiered, like, two years prior. So it was like. It was like Hobbit mania over there. [00:02:09] Speaker A: So cool. [00:02:09] Speaker B: I mean, everything was themed. And, yeah, the tourism was in full swing. [00:02:15] Speaker A: They have to be so irritated by it by now that we're all connecting to this fantasy thing. And they're like, it's just a beautiful country, guys. Relax. [00:02:22] Speaker B: That's probably a question for Gwen. I don't know, is there still Lord of the Rings stuff over there? [00:02:26] Speaker A: It's got to be everywhere, right? [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:02:28] Speaker A: I mean, I'm a big fan. My realization of the Fact that New Zealand existed, came through all that, probably [00:02:34] Speaker B: a whole generation of Americans, you had no idea. [00:02:37] Speaker A: Probably like all the bands that exist now because people started playing Rock Band together when the video game came out. Is there that that exists, Right? [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:45] Speaker A: They learned how to play the music for real. Lindsay, you ever been to New Zealand? [00:02:48] Speaker C: No, I never have. [00:02:49] Speaker A: What's the farthest you've traveled? [00:02:52] Speaker C: Gosh, I've been to Europe. I've been to Italy and Spain and Croatia. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Oh, Croatia. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Yes. That's beautiful. [00:02:59] Speaker A: I want to go to Croatia. [00:03:01] Speaker C: And I've been to Ukraine. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Oh, no way. [00:03:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:03:04] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:04] Speaker C: In 2005, I think. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Amazing. [00:03:07] Speaker C: Yeah. But I've never been down under. [00:03:10] Speaker B: I think that's Australia. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:11] Speaker B: So close. [00:03:11] Speaker C: Oh, well, I haven't been there either, so [00:03:17] Speaker B: that's awesome. [00:03:19] Speaker A: Don't they get insulted? Aren't the Aussies and New Zealanders just like, are the Kiwis? Isn't there a rivalry there? [00:03:24] Speaker B: I think so, yeah. Yeah. [00:03:26] Speaker A: It's probably more for fun now. [00:03:28] Speaker B: But I don't know. I would never. I would never presume to know the [00:03:33] Speaker A: rivalry, which I'm presuming to know right now. [00:03:35] Speaker B: New Zealand and Australia. I do want to go to Australia. I've never been to Australia at all. Yeah, me neither. [00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Seems cool. Long flight. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Those are all long flights. Flights. [00:03:44] Speaker A: 14 hours in New Zealand. 13 and a half. Sorry. [00:03:48] Speaker B: I did a 20, I think it was 22 hour flight New York to Johannesburg, South Africa when I was a teenager. And they did stop for refueling at some island in the Atlantic. Okay. And I think you could get off, but it was like to get off to go into a holding room and then get back on because it was just for refueling. So we stayed on. But that was crazy. [00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:09] Speaker B: By about hour 17, you're like, are we still. We're still. Yeah, we're still flying. Okay. [00:04:15] Speaker A: We've always been here. [00:04:16] Speaker B: You lose your mind? [00:04:17] Speaker A: You went to New Zealand. Did you lose your. Excuse me. You went to Disneyland. Did you lose your mind there? [00:04:22] Speaker B: A little bit by the end? We did two days last week with the kids. Yeah. [00:04:26] Speaker A: The fastest trip to Disneyland, I think I've heard of. It's like a day trip. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Well, and the funny thing was the first day we. We did Disneyland. Right. Proper or whatever. The original park. And great. We did like rope drop to closing. And the kids did great all day. And we just. We felt like we got the perfect weather and everything went great. We should have left the next morning. It should have been a 30 hour trip. We did the second day and it was much hotter. It was almost 90 degrees. [00:04:53] Speaker A: Oh, baby. [00:04:54] Speaker B: In California Adventure. My son's a little young for a lot of like the coasters and stuff. So it just felt like, oh, we should have just quit while we were ahead. Gone home and. Yeah. Which I know is terrible. And that's such an American thing. Like, oh, yeah, we do one day vacations. Like, learn to unwind, man. [00:05:13] Speaker A: You know, you're not trying to also, if you're going to Disneyland, unwind. You know, I've got a sell. Yeah. [00:05:21] Speaker B: Nothing unwinding about that. But yeah, it's a thing. It was good. The first day was good. And the weather, you got to get the right weather. I'm a huge proponent of Disney days are either made or broken by the weather. Because we all went. We were at a conference in Anaheim. We went and it was kind of muggy and overcast and it just kind of makes everything feel like bleh. Which I know is very entitled of me. I'm entitled to nice weather. [00:05:48] Speaker A: 90 feels like blech. [00:05:50] Speaker B: 90 is too hot. Yeah. In February, it wasn't quite 90, but it was hot. Yeah. [00:05:56] Speaker A: Brutal. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:57] Speaker A: And I'm just not a Disney. We've done it a few times now. I never went as a kid, so I don't have that connection. I probably needed that. [00:06:03] Speaker B: You probably need the connection as an adult. [00:06:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:06] Speaker B: To go and experience it for the first time. You're like, it's not that great. [00:06:10] Speaker A: I don't know. [00:06:11] Speaker B: I don't know. These teacups really do it for me. [00:06:14] Speaker A: A lot of standing around and it [00:06:16] Speaker B: only cost $2,000 a day. What a bargain. [00:06:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:21] Speaker B: That was one of the best. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Post super bowl couple Seahawks got put in the teacups together. Just these two giant men. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Kind of. [00:06:27] Speaker A: One of them, I think even had to have his hand up a little bit so that they weren't so close to each other. Not enough ruin those teacups. [00:06:32] Speaker B: It is funny because they're coming off of the greatest moment likely in their lives, winning the super bowl and then they're sitting in teacups with everyone staring at them, filming them. It can't be a. It's a letdown. It has to be a letdown. Just kind of be paraded around, little [00:06:51] Speaker A: puppets going and doing some marketing for everyone. [00:06:54] Speaker B: And you don't. You can't hide. [00:06:55] Speaker C: You can't. [00:06:55] Speaker B: You know, maybe when you're there alone as an NFL football player, but when you're in a group, like, there's no hiding. [00:07:02] Speaker A: You swarmed the whole Day probably could have, but immediately, like, it's literally the next day. [00:07:06] Speaker B: And you're right. [00:07:07] Speaker A: It's crazy. Congratulations. The highest achievement that you've always dreamed of for your entire life. And now you're going to be paraded around Disneyland while everybody watches you like you're at a zoo. [00:07:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Weird. So weird. Nothing strange I've ever understood. Disney family. Lindsay. [00:07:22] Speaker C: I enjoy Disneyland. Yes. Very much. [00:07:24] Speaker A: Did you go as a kid? [00:07:26] Speaker C: We went to Disney World as a kid, but then I danced competitively in high school. I did. And we went to Disney World every year to compete with other dance teams. And so it was my first experience of like a little bit of independence because our coach just sent us out in groups and they're like, hey, be back at the main gate at 9 o'. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Clock. [00:07:45] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:45] Speaker C: And we just got set loose in Disney World. It was the greatest. It was so much fun. Yeah. [00:07:51] Speaker A: I'm a little concerned that we haven't had any dance team stories before. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:55] Speaker A: I didn't know. [00:07:56] Speaker B: I didn't know this at all. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Your life. [00:07:59] Speaker C: When does one bring this up? I don't know. [00:08:01] Speaker B: We bring up the stupidest parts of our lives. [00:08:04] Speaker A: I talk way too much about fourth grade basketball for me. We missed this. I guess it will make it come up now. Fantastic. [00:08:12] Speaker C: Yeah, it was a thing. I wasn't a sports girl, but I did dance competitively. We won one year, you guys. [00:08:17] Speaker A: At Disney World. Yeah. [00:08:18] Speaker C: We took first place. Yeah. In the nation. What? [00:08:21] Speaker B: In the nation. [00:08:22] Speaker A: What's going on? [00:08:23] Speaker C: I know. We were on espn. [00:08:25] Speaker B: What? [00:08:28] Speaker C: It's true. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Of the three of us, which one has been on espn? [00:08:32] Speaker C: I know. Really? Who would have thought? [00:08:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:35] Speaker B: So you've been on espn. [00:08:36] Speaker C: I have. [00:08:36] Speaker B: You've been in Marvel movies. [00:08:39] Speaker C: I have. [00:08:40] Speaker B: What? [00:08:40] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [00:08:42] Speaker B: What if Ben and I have nothing? We have nothing going in our lives. Nothing at all. My goodness. Yeah, that's fancy. [00:08:50] Speaker A: Anyway, can't have the illusion that we're the coolest anymore. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. That reminds me though. The second day when it was so hot. The real low point of the whole trip for us as we were waiting for our time window for a ride, Clara and I. And we're just so hot and thirsty and kind of miserable. Mid afternoon, everyone's exhausted and we got stuck watching this high school choir performing on this stage and we listened to two full songs and I'm like, what are we even doing? What is going on? [00:09:22] Speaker A: Were they good? [00:09:23] Speaker B: No, it was just your. I mean, they were fine. It was just your average high school choral Group. And then they brought out. You know, they're like, oh, and so. And so are gonna solo on this one. And then their parents cheer. [00:09:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:09:35] Speaker B: Wasn't great. [00:09:36] Speaker A: It's a little reminder. It's a little reminder that Disneyland is also just kind of part of that community. One of the last times I went, they were like, it's senior night tonight. And all the seniors from the local high schools. And I was like, this was not my senior party. I think we went to a bowling alley in Grants Pass for, like, our senior night party. [00:09:57] Speaker B: Not terrible. I mean, you know, I like bowling. Yeah. We did all night at the Bend Athletic Club. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That sounds different. Yeah, there's like, basketball and stuff there. [00:10:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't remember what we did. [00:10:10] Speaker A: Treadmills. [00:10:11] Speaker B: I think some people swam. Yeah. It wasn't great. Denny's. Denny's at the end of it. [00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:20] Speaker B: Morning. And then we went to Denny's. Rip Denny's. It's no more. [00:10:24] Speaker C: Really? I didn't know that. [00:10:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's where. What's the fast food burger place. Boy, this is really a drag to listen to. I'm sorry. Our. Listen, listeners. [00:10:34] Speaker A: No. [00:10:35] Speaker B: Super Deluxe. Super Deluxe used to be a Denny's. [00:10:38] Speaker A: I didn't know that. [00:10:39] Speaker B: Different building. They tore it down. [00:10:40] Speaker A: The IHOP Applebee's in Redmond. [00:10:42] Speaker B: What is going on? [00:10:43] Speaker A: Have you seen that? [00:10:43] Speaker B: The IHOP Applebee's combo. Yeah. [00:10:46] Speaker A: You want to go? [00:10:47] Speaker C: I think you have to. We have to film a podcast. [00:10:50] Speaker A: We should record there. [00:10:50] Speaker B: Let's do it. Yeah. [00:10:51] Speaker A: What do you order at an IHOP Applebee's? [00:10:54] Speaker B: All I can think of is it's like those Long John Silver KFC combos. That's all I can think of. So, I mean, it's smart on their. You know, they're serving breakfast and then they switch over to the Applebee's menu. I'm. I'm guessing, or that's what people order. [00:11:08] Speaker A: It's gotta be like a lunch crossover, though. [00:11:10] Speaker B: It makes me think, I don't know, that they're gonna be doing breakfast, lunch, or dinner real well if they're doing both. Let's be honest. Like, do you just stash the pancakes right next to the oriental chicken salad? Like what? You know, where does the syrup go at night? [00:11:27] Speaker A: I think you gotta get pancakes and riblets. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Right? [00:11:32] Speaker A: Isn't that the combo? I mean, there's probably an easy chicken and waffles crossover here that we could just settle on. [00:11:42] Speaker B: It reminds me of the day I realized that the boneless chicken wings At Applebee's were just chicken nuggets. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. [00:11:49] Speaker B: That's all they are. [00:11:49] Speaker A: It's a really hard realization. [00:11:51] Speaker B: It is. Because what is a boneless wing if not just chicken nuggets? How old were you? [00:11:57] Speaker A: 20, 40? [00:11:59] Speaker B: Yeah. It was more recent than I'd like to admit when I realized this for me, but I don't know. I mean, we don't have an Applebee's in town anymore. We have to go to Redmond probably. Good. [00:12:12] Speaker A: I love that combo, though. That's so great. [00:12:14] Speaker B: Okay. [00:12:15] Speaker A: Podcast at the Apple Hop. [00:12:18] Speaker B: Apple Hop. What's the reverse of that? The International House of the IB. International House of Bees. Oh, yikes. [00:12:28] Speaker A: Oh, those are great, though. We did the late night thing all the time. Sherry's and Denny's. And I think that's a product of our generation. Right there is. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker A: A few of those spots. I feel like I'm missing one. Denny's and Sherry's and something. Yeah, that was pretty great. Late night pie. [00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And none of our towns had, like, other hangouts. I mean, after a certain point at night, you're gonna be at one of the three franchise restaurants that are still open or open 24 hours. [00:12:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:55] Speaker B: And I remember they used to put the little cards out on the table at Sherry's that were like, no dice. You can't play dice in here. I was like, is there so much dice playing going on that this needs a policy? [00:13:06] Speaker A: Was like an audio disturbance. [00:13:07] Speaker B: Is that it? [00:13:08] Speaker A: Just. [00:13:08] Speaker B: I don't know. Evidently, there was gangs of roving dice players that would roll through and cause, you know, a kerfuffle or whatever. [00:13:17] Speaker A: People were getting in fights. That was. Gambling was too much. [00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, God bless Sherry's. Turns out they. They were up to no good. They. They closed their doors and ended up having stolen, like, $800,000 of Oregon Lotto money that they were just pocketing. [00:13:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Okay. Yeah. [00:13:34] Speaker B: I don't. This isn't like, one of those podcasts that, like, uncovers, you know, fraud, but let's go. [00:13:40] Speaker A: Maybe. Maybe that's what we feature in our Apple Hop episode. [00:13:45] Speaker B: What fraud is going on here? Is it really international, this House of Pancakes? You be the judge. Never considered. [00:13:56] Speaker A: That's so stupid. [00:13:59] Speaker B: We're starting out strong today, guys. [00:14:01] Speaker A: I think we're tired. Oh. [00:14:03] Speaker B: Too much. Anyway. Anyway, let's talk about the last couple weekends we've been in John 11 and then 12. We didn't record last week because we're traveling, but, yeah, we talked through Lazarus, and then yesterday, the Extended story of Lazarus. Sister Mary washing the feet of Jesus or anointing the feet of Jesus with costly oil. A couple of really great weeks and a really sweet section of scripture that, I don't know, it felt meaningful to the church. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Stood out to me more this time going through it than other times, I think. And you did feel the cohesion between the whole story of Lazarus. I think in the middle of that and based on Jesus's response and that kind of friendship, I guess maybe that's what stood out to me is it felt more like friendship to me that Jesus had made friends. I think we talk about the people that Jesus ministers to his disciples, and for some reason it just stood out to me a little bit more that it seemed like a real friendship between Jesus and these three. And that was interesting to me. I'm not sure why exactly that happened to me, but it did. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And the glimpses into Jesus as, you know, person. The person of Jesus, I think are some of the more powerful moments. Because John is also going to give us like this. Very well. He starts in John 1 with, you know, this cosmic view of the Word in the beginning. And we're going to see when we get to the Garden of Gethsemane. John's portrayal of that is very much Jesus with the authority of God, you know, in this moment, in this clash between the Roman guard and him and his disciples. But in these moments, John also kind of swoops down to give us the Jesus who weeps and the Jesus who his dirty feet are being washed by, by Mary and. And I think it's. It's both that informed the doctrine of the early church that Jesus was in fact, God, you know, while being fully human. And we talked about that, pushing against that. Oh, maybe Jesus was just a spiritual figure, not actually human. No. John would say he's both. [00:16:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's interesting that that's such a temptation. I definitely subscribe to the. You know, either he's a total crazy person or he was God and there's not. He doesn't leave a whole lot of room in between. And it is funny that that continues to like. It does crop up in almost this pop spirituality theology thing that happens. And I don't know, maybe it makes sense, but he just seemed. He's so. Yeah, absolutely. There's no other interpretation of this guy is completely insane because this is how he talked and this is. And if he didn't raise again from the dead and he's not indeed the Son of God, and then everything he was Saying you kind of have to throw completely out and maybe even just disbelieve the writing of all the deeds and the miracles that he, it or he is in fact God. And that's a powerful place. I think that everybody. I would encourage everybody to put themselves in the position of. To feel that tension. [00:16:58] Speaker C: Right? [00:16:58] Speaker A: And I think we feel that tension and many times over the course of our lives of the teaching of Jesus and the miracles of Jesus and the miraculous and God and our brains trying to make sense of all this. It's a good tension, but we should find ourselves in that tension. [00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And John points out how I think in 9 and 10 especially. Excuse me, 9 and 10 especially, he points out, like, and some believed in him and others wanted to kill him. And it's almost inviting us to be like, which side are you on? Do you want to kill him? Do you think he's crazy? Do you think he's a threat? Or do you think he's the Messiah? Do you think he's the one, and are you going to worship him? And it does push back against this ability to just appreciate Jesus from a distance. Like, he doesn't really give you that, does he? [00:17:44] Speaker A: No, no. It's also interesting how this takes place in. In our series, at least it's within Lent. And you start feeling, for me, and I referenced it a little bit yesterday, there's almost this sense of urgency that's beginning to happen. Do you think that's in the text and I'm feeling it from that, or is it just because we're in the tradition of Lent and all that? Or do you feel that kind of almost anxiety as things push a little bit closer to Easter? [00:18:10] Speaker B: I feel like we're. We're reading and the disciples are getting more feeling that crunch that Jesus is walking them into the firing line. And they say as much. You know, when Jesus is like, hey, we're going to go to Bethany, which is just outside Jerusalem, right? It's a suburb of Jerusalem. And they're like, do we have to? Because they were going to stone you last time we were there, so maybe we don't have to do that. And then he's like, well, Lazarus is sleeping. They're like, great, he's not dead. He's just sleeping. He'll be fine. Let's stay here in safe Galilee. [00:18:42] Speaker C: And. [00:18:43] Speaker B: And so you're getting the sense of the disciples getting nervous and for very good reason, right? They have experienced this threats and these schemes that the religious leaders and others are scheming. And so I don't know. I think if you're hanging out with Jesus in the Gospel of John, John is showing us, like the disciples started to panic a little bit where he was going to take them. And he doesn't shy away from that, you know, And I think that's where in John 11, when he says, we're going to go to Bethany, that he launches into this kind of cryptic, weird thing where he says, There's 12 hours of light in the day, and people walk around by the light of this world, but their time is coming when the light goes out, and then you'll stumble in the dark. And they're like, what? [00:19:37] Speaker A: And it sounds fun. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Jesus and his point was like, if you can't follow me when I'm right here with you, you're going to really struggle when I'm no longer with you. And so stick with me. Even though it's scary. And I love that kind of invitation to courage that Jesus throws out to the disciples, I think to us by proxy. You know, it's like, if you are too afraid to move into things that will cost you when I'm right next to you, when my spirit is with you, what's the alternative? If you let me go without you, you're going to be on your own, and then it's going to be far worse for you. And so stick with me through the stuff. Stick with me when you suffer, stick with me when it costs everything. And you talked about that with the cost of our worship, the cost of devotion to Christ. It's not a small thing. It's the surrender that costs. Right? Yeah. [00:20:32] Speaker A: It takes everything. And in doing so, we will find ourselves regulated at the feet of Jesus is the lesson that we learned from Mary, the sister of Lazarus. And I hadn't really thought about this. Maybe the two of you had before. Of Mary is actually a really good framework for discipleship. She, in grief, goes and throws herself at the feet of Jesus, and she worships and pours out this nard at the feet of Jesus. She's just finding herself at his feet all the time. Mary and Martha. Martha's running around getting the house ready, and she's listening to the teacher at the feet, at his feet. And it's just. I just hadn't really quite thought about it that way. She's almost a wonderful contrast to many others that were so close to Jesus. They were often throwing around these interesting questions. And even in competition with one another for who might be the greatest once Jesus enters into his Kingdom. And Mary just kind of bypasses all of this. It's almost this like, reckless, throwing myself at his feet and ending up to be how I framed it. Yesterday was deeply spiritually formed by the process of doing that so often that she, she kind of found herself doing the right things at the right times. When you can't really say that about just about anybody else in scripture. The disciples continue to throw, to throw up, to mess up, all the way to the very end. They fall asleep in the garden and then they abandon everything once Jesus is taken to the cross. Like, I don't know. She is a really profound figure to me in this go around through the reading of Scripture as someone. I guess it's not a compare and contrast necessarily, but it's as someone who seems to like, get it better than everybody else. And there's something to be gleaned in there from that. [00:22:19] Speaker B: She seems deeply secure in her relationship with Jesus in a way that these young disciples are not. And maybe that's a product of, you know, their age and stage as the disciples. They're, you know, teenage guys that are jockeying for who's the teacher's favorite, which I think is very normal, natural, you know. And you talk to that about that last week. [00:22:40] Speaker A: It's so normal. [00:22:42] Speaker B: But it is interesting to contrast that with a Mary who seems so at ease with her relationship with Jesus and there's not even a whiff of like, Jesus, I'm the best disciple, right. I'm your closest friend, right? Jesus. There's just this ease and confidence that she's loved by Jesus and she knows that. And so she can sit at his feet, she can grieve openly to him, that if only he had been there, my brother wouldn't have died. There's an honesty and a vulnerability that she shares with Jesus in that moment. And then of course, with the anointing of Bethany, an incredibly vulnerable moment in her culture, to let down her hair and to pour out this expensive perfume, this oil and to wash this. I mean, this is like scandalous, over the top behavior that would require a lot of security and, and kind of, you'd have to be completely void of insecurity, otherwise you wouldn't do that. Yeah, right. Because you know what that's going to stir up. And we see it in Judas's response of like, how dare she waste that? But she was so confident, I guess. [00:23:50] Speaker A: And even in contrast, later on, Jesus goes to wash the feet of the disciples and Peter's just like, oh my gosh, no way. And it's not even him that's being asked to get onto his knees with a towel and to do what Mary did, you know? And it's still just. I can't believe that you would even suggest. This entire idea is completely insane. And maybe there's a contrast in there of the insecurity, what you're talking about. I like that idea that Mary seems to be very. Maybe that's the better phrase. I said she's, like, kind of more. Right. Maybe she's just more secure than everybody else. And so she finds herself in these beautiful places. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a good example. Peter seems, like, so insecure in the story we're about to get to, where he starts by being like, no, no, Lord, I'll wash your feet. Right? And then he's like, no, this is what I'm gonna do. He's like, okay, fine, then wash all of me. It's like, bro, settle down. Just calm down, man. You're all over the map. Interesting. We talked about this this morning. So you did a salvation call, an invitation at the end of your message. And I was sitting there in all the services, and I assumed that you knew that I had also led the church in a salvation response the week prior, but you hadn't heard the message at that point. And so we both did what we don't normally do. We don't often do a full kind of call and response, repeat after me prayer. And yet we did it unknowingly two weeks in a row. [00:25:21] Speaker A: So. Funny, man. Yeah. You looked at me like, oh, yeah, cool. You did the thing that we did last week, and I was like, no, I thought I was bringing something fresh to the table. You know, I was out the week before my wife had surgery on her thyroid. But, yeah, that's fascinating to me that we both did that, because. How long has it been? Over a year. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, we've done versions of, like, inviting people into faith and to commit their lives to Jesus. But very specifically, like, raise your hand. I see you pray this prayer. We haven't done that in. How long has it been, Lindsay? [00:25:53] Speaker C: A very long time. [00:25:54] Speaker B: Very long time. So very interesting that we would both be like, this is the right moment. And maybe it's a product of either what God is doing in the church, but also in the story in John. These are very personal messages, I guess. You know, we're walking through, like, people are very close to Jesus and. And it lends itself maybe to this invitation. [00:26:16] Speaker A: Yeah. How'd it feel to you, Lindsay, being not one of us? [00:26:19] Speaker C: I didn't know that. You didn't know. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:22] Speaker C: And so I thought, oh, we're just doing this now. [00:26:23] Speaker A: Okay, cool. All right. Yeah. [00:26:25] Speaker C: I had no idea it actually call me a little woo woo, you guys. But I just think it. I think it's the Holy Spirit. I think, I think God is doing something really fresh and beautiful in our church. I've actually been thinking a lot about a lot of our verbiage and the way we say things. And I'm feeling a shift in like seeker sensitive language which, yes, we will always be friendly to those who are unchurched and have never set foot or de. Churched or whatever. But turning more towards like family. This is who we are. This is what we do kind of a thing. Identity, belonging. Instead of like, you're on the outside and we're inviting you in speaking to like, we're all on the inside. And here's what that means and looks like. And I don't know if those two have anything to do with each other, but they probably do. And I just, I feel like it's something that the Lord is doing in our church right now with the people who he's trusted us with. Um, so that's. I don't know. It's pretty cool. I didn't know that you didn't know. So. [00:27:31] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe you should say that this weekend. [00:27:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I might. Yeah. [00:27:34] Speaker A: It's an interesting piece. [00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Because. And people may not even believe that that's true. Like, why would you randomly pick these two weeks? [00:27:44] Speaker A: You guys had my head so far in the sand the last week I was paying attention to anything. [00:27:48] Speaker C: Of course not. [00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, very surprising that you, you did that. So funny. [00:27:54] Speaker A: I felt a little funny doing it too because I, you guys, I did that. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Well, that's because everyone had gotten saved the week before, so there's no one left to respond. Still raising. I know, I know, I know. [00:28:04] Speaker A: That would have been hysterical. [00:28:08] Speaker B: Okay. [00:28:08] Speaker C: I missed it. I guess [00:28:13] Speaker B: we just, yeah, got the job done the week before. So. No, it is beautiful. And it is a reminder these last two weeks where we did have good response both. Both weeks to that invitation is that people want to. They want to say yes to Jesus in a tangible way. They want to feel that call. And I don't think it's our call. I think it's Jesus calling them and they want to stand up and they want to raise their hand or they want to say yes. Yeah, that's me. More than just like quietly consider. Okay, go home and, you know, see what you might think or kind of these vague non committal responses. I think people want to commit, they want to cross the line and. And say, Jesus, I want to follow you. [00:28:56] Speaker A: This is really good discussion for behind the Message. Really. Can we discuss why it's not as much of a regular part of our liturgy as like, I remember leading young adults for, let's say, 11 of the 13 years or whatever. I think I did it every single week. And then I felt differently about it over time. Can you guys talk about kind of the process that I would imagine all of us have been through with. With having that be a part of [00:29:22] Speaker B: the service every time? I know the dark side of salvation focused evangelism in services can be that you become numbers obsessed. And this is true for large scale evangelistic outreaches which we've done here at Westside. And I've been very closely tied to. And where it becomes like, how many responses? Oh, we got 700 at that last event. Oh, wow. And then you're telling the story again. You're like, I think it was more like 900, actually. And then. And I've seen this where the story becomes bigger than the actual anything that actually happened. That's fishing for pastors. And then you start asking like, oh, cool, and how did you get them connected, you know, to like community or church or, oh, I don't know, we got nine. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Not our job. [00:30:13] Speaker B: A thousand people raised their hands and it's like, well, what is that that mean? And so after a while it just becomes this like window dressing that proves that you're legit or something. And so maybe some of the pushback is against wanting to have this rote thing that we do that makes us feel good because we see big numbers. But like the last two weeks, of course, it's not that we're not trying to juice the numbers for some report we're going to provide, you know, so. So I don't know. What do you. What do you think? Why? [00:30:45] Speaker A: I think I got to the point where I wanted to be careful with this idea of if you repeat after the pastor very specific verbiage, then it's all done. Good job, like we did and we got it in there. And they said the thing after me and who, thank goodness and a little bit akin to what you're talking about. And then whatever happens after here is not really my problem. And I think it in a passive way pushes against this real following after Jesus kind of thing. I think it sets people up to be the kind that as they're following after Jesus, like in the scripture. And then a hard lesson comes around. They go, oh, oh, God, I don't like this. I'm out of here. And they're part of that group that kind of leaves. As opposed to being the Marys of the world or the Peters of the world that are actively following after step for step, kind of really buying into this thing and allowing the love of Jesus and the lessons and teachings of Jesus to go to a certain depth that is projecting a lot onto that moment, even what I just described. And I think there's a good thought there of like, hey, let's make sure that this. We don't. We don't want to project to our church that this is what it means to follow Jesus, that you come and say the words. But also, you're right. I think people want a moment. And. Did we talk about this before? I think it was Tim Keller that was like that invitation. Moment is absolutely not everything, but it is something, you know, it's not a way to just open the door and finally get into heaven at the end of your life. We can't discount the fact that people want a moment where they say, and I'm taking step one out onto the trail, you know, that. [00:32:25] Speaker B: That matters. [00:32:28] Speaker A: And just because I have a funny relationship with it doesn't mean it's bad. [00:32:31] Speaker B: Right? [00:32:32] Speaker A: So, Lindsay, you have a take. [00:32:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's very similar to both of you. I think it's step one, and we have to treat it like step one. And I think when we make it such a main focus of everything we do, then it's really easy to teach people that that's the goal, that salvation is the goal, that heaven is the goal, period. And it's not. It's just not. Following Jesus is the goal. Becoming like Jesus is the goal, being his hands and feet on the earth is the goal. And so I think. I think balance is tricky with anything anyone does ever. But especially here, you know, I think we have a tendency to swing. And so we swung this way for a little while and we didn't really do an altar call type of thing. And now I sense we're coming back this way a little bit again. And I think both are good. And I think that moment will shift and change with the life and season of our church and where the people are at, who are. Who are in. In our seats. So, yeah, I. I like the way we view that moment. I like the way we're flexible with it. I like that it doesn't look the same way every week or every month. I think that's important. But, yeah, it's. It is just step one of many, many steps. And so I think it's important to keep it there and not make it the end all, be all. [00:33:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would say Evangelical Christianity's done a really good job of creating these powerful moments that were pretty content with just being really powerful moments and not something that develops and forms. Like, there was this puppet guy that would. A traveling kid's puppet guy. [00:34:11] Speaker B: Did you have this guy? Yeah, yeah. [00:34:13] Speaker A: And we brought him down to the church for our tent meetings continue many times. And he was funny. He was a sweet guy. His catchphrase, though, was at the end of every teaching that I did with the puppets was, read your Bible, do what it says. And that was the call and response. And now as a grown pastor, I'm like, oh, my gosh. That is a. That's full of all kinds of things, that little call and response. And it freaks me out a little bit. It's quick. The kids kind of. They understand it. Ish. Right. It feels right. And I just think there's a lot of moments that I've created myself as a leader and a pastor and that the evangelical church has created that are just so terribly shallow, and they're so good in a momentary call and response and tapping into some emotions. We just can't allow ourselves to just stay in that one little moment. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And to be clear, like, we haven't done away with this idea that people need to receive salvation, I mean, or read their Bible. Yeah, right, right. Our emphasis has. Has, I would say, in the last few years been strongly in baptism, which I think is great and so. So true to historic Christianity and the early church and. And Jesus. And so rather than focusing all on, like, how many hands can we get raised at an altar call, we focus more on, like, how can we encourage people to step into baptism as that. That sign of new life and stepping into salvation? And through that process, you know, they're. They're confessing Jesus as Lord and they're entering in the waters of baptism. And. And so we've made that the. The focal point, I don't think. You know, doing altar calls like this takes away from the focal point of baptism really as kind of the starting line. But also the Book of Acts is a little fuzzy on that because you have, like, Cornelius and his family, and they all get. They receive salvation as the whole household separate from the act of baptism. But then it seems like other times, like with the Ethiopian eunuch, Philip baptizes him and he receives salvation and the Holy Spirit all in one, you know, so it's like the Book of Acts is not nearly as clear as I would like it to be for us to make this a formula. But I know this baptism. Good. Praying to receive the Holy Spirit. Good. Receiving salvation through the confession of faith in Jesus and trusting him as Lord. Good. So let's do all of it. You know, let's do all it. Let's not say, well, it's a Billy Graham style response or you're not saved. Or, you know, if you, if you get hit by a bus on your way to baptism, you go to hell because you didn't get into the water. Like, let's, let's do away with these formulas and realize that there is spiritual weight to all these things. Saying, yes, Jesus. Confessing with your mouth, getting baptized, receiving the holy. All of this is really important. And we don't discount any of it. Right. Yeah. [00:37:10] Speaker A: There's complications in scripture with all of it. Yeah. If you look at it one way, if you're looking for a specific formula, but if, like you're saying, why don't we take on all of it? I think it becomes more beautiful. The blind man healed with the mud on his eyes is a great example too. I've always wondered what happens to these guys because his even response to the religious leaders is, you know, was that sinner, the one that you. That is, he's the one that healed you. And he's like, I don't really know who he is, guys, but I can see it. It's pretty cool. What happens to that guy's eternal soul? You know, Is he really saved? Is he. I don't, I don't know that he prayed. Some kind of prayer. [00:37:44] Speaker B: Thief on the cross. No. Baptism. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. [00:37:46] Speaker B: No time for baptism when you're, you minutes away from death. And so maybe he did a repeat [00:37:51] Speaker A: after me, I don't know. [00:37:52] Speaker B: But there's some kind of spiritual saving, you know, because he's close to Jesus. And I just think we give Jesus probably too little credit. [00:38:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:01] Speaker B: When we require very specific formulas, at least in our minds, because it makes more sense. And I think a lot of times we just have to kind of wrap our arms around all of the forgiveness of Christ and all of the mercy that he gives and stop trying to expect that it only looks one way or that people only respond in one way. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And maybe it's helpful for the listener to know how often I know me personally and I feel like the two of you kind of taking these big swings to the other side out of rejecting something that we found that was toxic or not, of Jesus on one side and this big swing. And then slowly over time. I wouldn't necessarily call it a swing back, but I would say it's a return to maybe the essence or the original idea behind a lot of these things. It came out in our mountaintop meeting a few weeks ago where I was talking about how beautiful and sacred I thought a Catholic funeral that I had been to recently was. And I grew up as Pentecostal as it gets. You know, my dad was kind of a reaction to his Catholic upbringing, and so he led in this way. And then Justin on our team, who was the farthest thing from a massive charismatic Pentecostal, was like, I think we should understand the baptism of the Holy Spirit more and we should talk. And I was like, well, I'll be darned. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Look at. [00:39:19] Speaker A: Just kind of trying to understand and grab at this thing that maybe we've never known and we'd like to. We're curious about and we'd like to understand. Or maybe we thought we knew it and rejected it, and now there's this. This return that certainly isn't a giving itself over to maybe what we experienced before, but it's. It's like the better piece of it. Right? [00:39:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:41] Speaker A: We were. [00:39:42] Speaker B: Had a member meeting last night for new members. And when we talk about the Holy Spirit, some of those questions came up at the table I was sitting at of, you know, like, why. You know why, when you come to a service here at Westside, if you are Pentecostal in your theology, which we're part of a Pentecostal movement, why is it not more Pentecostal in our expression? And so I just shared with that one guy, like, for you and I both, Ben, we came from hyper charismatic rooms. And so very naturally, it's not something that, like, intrigues us. It's like, what would that be like? You know, we've seen that. We've seen and we've seen the excesses of that. And so we're not opposed to more expressive worship or gatherings or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But we're not. They're not so novel that we're like, if only we could do that, then we could. We could have something we've never had before. And I think we probably err on the side of being less expressive than. Probably as healthy because of the excesses that we've witnessed. But there is something to it, like whatever you grew up around, maybe is what you kind of push against and find beauty elsewhere. And I think Jesus calls us back to something that isn't reactionary, but that just looks like him. And it maybe frustrates our impulse to always be looking for what we haven't had. You know, we like novel, I think, in our faith and our worship. And sometimes that's really fresh and good, but we can also idolize that. Yeah, right. [00:41:20] Speaker A: I think that's a good way to put it. It's not. We're trying to lead from this place. It's not necessarily a reaction to something that we don't like. I think that can be just as bad as being the thing that you don't like. Right. And I'm not afraid to say it, really, because it kind of came up at a table that I was at too, of like, I'm still for Ben Fleming personally. I'm still kind of working through a lot of this stuff. I've been in a lot of rooms that I would look at and I say, I think I've seen some Jesus things in here. And I've been in probably more rooms where I go, this is gross. Like 100% objectively, you can't talk me out of it. This was awful, manipulation, nasty, whatever. And I'm not. You're not going to talk me out of it, you know, And I want to be incredibly responsible that we're not those kind of leaders that believe that the Holy Spirit has to work in some of these ways. But I also don't want to be the one that just gives up on it altogether either. And that's a very vulnerable thing for me to say. Like, it's really. I do. I want to quit on the whole idea, if I'm being honest, even when it comes up and we're going through this stuff like, ugh, on top of the Holy Spirit. I just don't want to do it. I spent my whole life talking about the Holy Spirit. I want to talk about something else. [00:42:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:31] Speaker A: And I know, I know that's not the answer either, but I'm very much in process on all of it, you know. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, growing up, there's always the stories of like all these folks coming out of either liturgical settings or even just like, you know, non expressive settings, whether it be Baptists or whatever. And coming to the good side, which was charismatic, you know, crazy worship and everyone's rolling around the floor, literally. And that was seen as like, see, isn't it wonderful over here? And I agree with you. I'm like, no, it was just. It got weird. It got really weird. And what's different now is some of those. The worship movements, specifically, whether that be hillsong going back to, like, darling check and shout to the Lord, a lot of that became mainstream to where, you know, you have charismatic churches and Baptists, and they're all singing bethel 10 years ago, you know, so it's like there's some equalizers which have complicated what used to be a really simple, like, either you're, you know, you hate the Holy Spirit and you're not expressive, or you're all in and you're rolling on the floor. And now it's kind of like, well, everyone's kind of singing the same things and raising their hands somewhere between here and here. And so it kind of muddies the difference until you get to the far extremes, or your full liturgy or your full roll on the floor. [00:43:59] Speaker A: You're right. It really was like hymnals or you were singing their lean check stuff. [00:44:04] Speaker B: It was pretty clear, like, which kind of church are you in? And now it's kind of like the Airbnb effect on global decor. Everybody in the last 20 years now has moved to this generic Scandinavian aesthetic because of Airbnb. And I feel like with churches, it's like worship did that. Yeah. You know, where it's like, we've all kind of just come to the middle in this kind of. It is expressive, and everyone's using guitars and everyone's singing Brandon Lake. And I don't know if you're a Baptist, I don't know if you're charismatic, but we're all doing the same thing, right, Lindsay? Is that. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:41] Speaker C: You're not wrong. I haven't heard it put that way, but you're spot on. [00:44:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker C: I don't know what I think about it. Yeah. It's kind of a bummer to me, actually, because I think part of the beauty of the body of Christ is the different expressions, all the different streams of Christianity, not necessarily denominations, because I couldn't list all of them here. There are so many, but there is, like, contemplative and charismatic, Pentecostal and evangelical, and all these different things. And their expressions are different, but I think together it makes up, I don't want to say the fullness of God. Of course not. But we see more of God's image and character as the full body of Christ expresses itself. And when we have these big, sweeping, giant movements that just kind of, I don't know, neutralize it all or generalize it all, it bums me Out a little bit. [00:45:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it is a bummer. [00:45:36] Speaker C: It does. Yeah. But we're guilty. We sing. I think we sang Brandon, like, on Sunday. So, you know, it's really fascinating to [00:45:44] Speaker B: me, and maybe this is why now you just hear a lot more of people leaving evangelicalism and finding Orthodox churches to become a part of, or becoming Episcopal priests in a true liturgical setting, or going to Catholicism, because you almost have to go that far to feel any difference at all. Like, it used to be, you could be like, ah, I'm. I'm done being a Pentecost. I'm gonna go Baptist and sing the hymns of the church again. And I was like, well, you don't. That's not an option. So you're gonna have to go a lot further. So Orthodox it is, you know, like, it's interesting. [00:46:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:27] Speaker B: You really have to go further away to get out of. If you. You know, if you're like, I don't want to sing Elevation. Okay, well, we'll see you at Mass. You know, like, it kind of is true. [00:46:40] Speaker A: No, that's a good point. And I think that was probably what Westside was for me when I got here. It was. And we talked about. I need to go into deep detail with it. You look up almost any podcast on this stream, and you'll find me talking about it. But, you know, Steve was processing the grief of the loss of his son. And that was, like, kind of the worship sound that you're talking about, the difference between Mass and Brandon Lake. It was. For me, it was like, I've never heard this before. This is such a departure in all of the grief and the tears and the suffering. I was like, this is. I've never seen anything like this. And it. I kind of. It tuned in. It was completing the fullness of. Not the fullness, but for me, like, it was, like, part of the fullness of the journey. And that was what I sought out. And then a lot of my leadership has been shaped not just by that moment, but by looking after all these things. The prayer school that we did with Brian Zahnd and who I read now compared to who I used to. And I think some of it is legitimately just good, better theology. You know, I'm not sad that I'm not in rooms every single Sunday praying for a Friday fresh word from God, which just got so hard. Like, the oppression of some of these phrases and the seeking of. We need a new anointing. We need a fresh word from God. Give us a new moment and a new vision. It was like, call you guys. I'm not even sure we ever caught the old one. And then are we done with it? Like, what. How do we keep chasing whatever carrot is out in front of us? And so much of, like, Pentecostalism as that, for me, the next healing, the next thing, the next movement, the next hill. And so I think that's in a lot of cases, there's, like, there's something wrong with that. And I think it moved into something healthier. But, yeah, hopefully not at the sacrifice of, like, I'm throwing out all of the fresh new move of God. [00:48:29] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:48:31] Speaker A: It's so terrible. Yeah. [00:48:33] Speaker B: No, and. And I. I guess if you've never been. If you've never spent years in charismatic Pentecostal circles, you'd be like, what is your problem? [00:48:43] Speaker A: Use the word oppression. Who hurt you? Everything you said was just fine. [00:48:48] Speaker B: You're not seeking God for a fresh work of the Holy Spirit. You monster. [00:48:53] Speaker A: I know. [00:48:54] Speaker B: I can't do it anymore. Yeah. But no. Having been in those rooms. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're right. There's this expectation that, like, if you don't get a fresh word today, you're not doing it right. And it is. It's kind of a. It's a do better, try harder approach to worship, really. And just bring it full circle. The story of Mary at the feet of Jesus is just. It's not do better, try harder. It's stay closer. Like, just don't leave here. Don't ever leave here. And whatever Jesus wants to do, he wants to give a fresh word, great. If he wants to heal, great. And if he doesn't show up on time and my brother dies, it's going to break my heart, but I'm not leaving him. And I feel like that is the call of discipleship. [00:49:40] Speaker A: Yeah. This is why me working with the two of you is so good. Yes. Fresh words from the Holy Spirit. [00:49:45] Speaker B: Not bad. A little bit of clarity. [00:49:51] Speaker A: It is the oppressive piece of it that says, do better, try harder, and keep going until you find a high. It's very addictive, actually, in a lot of the experiences that I had. And we're going to show up here and we're going to keep going until we climb that high again. And I've tried to get a lot more comfortable as a leader. Even in preaching, you know, you can feel like a flow of energy or whatever, enthusiasm from the room, and that still will never not feel nice. But I'm getting used to the idea of that was a fine teaching. Like, it was it was the teaching that was in front of me today, and we taught it and it was good and it wasn't. I think there was a movement in the room and. Oh, my gosh, I just saw it. It was, no, this was a good teaching. And it was. It was good and people can receive from that. And we're gonna allow God to do what he's gonna do with it as opposed to chasing whatever it was. Because it was, man, it was almost like this hold up in a room. That's how you get the two, three, four hour service thing is because we're usually waiting for something, something, and there's something like sweet and beautiful about a people that will just do that too, you know, that will just wait. It's very complicated. Yeah. [00:51:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Last week, probably the most responses I've gotten in memory to anything I've preached on was a section on teaching on Lazarus where I. I shared a story from five years ago and I talked about Alyssa's diagnosis. And then someone had emailed us, the leadership team, and said, I'm leaving the church because I'm sick of all your sad stories. [00:51:30] Speaker A: This is before you're saying, right? [00:51:32] Speaker B: I told this story about five years ago, how this had happened. And I said, first of all, that's a really rude thing to do. Never email people that way, because that's so mean. [00:51:41] Speaker A: Just leave the church. [00:51:42] Speaker B: Just leave the church. But then the point that got so much of a response in emails and texts and people talking to me afterwards was I said, I get it. I get it. When you feel like if you open yourself up fully to the hurt that's in the world and the brokenness in myself, that my faith isn't going to hold up. And if I look at that and I really realize how devastating that news is, that event was, that loss feels, then I'm afraid I can't keep following Jesus because my faith is going to fall apart. It won't hold up to that. And giving people permission to feel that. I think it's that when you came to west side first and. And Steve was talking about the loss of his son, it's like, oh, there's a side to faith that looks straight in the. In the face of loss or pain or grief and says, jesus is still here. I don't think it gets any better than that, you know? [00:52:37] Speaker A: No, I think that's exactly right. [00:52:39] Speaker B: And hopefully we don't talk about it in such a way that everyone just leaves. So sad every week, you know, and that's what was different. This. You Know, five years past that devastation, the tone is different. You know, you can speak about things that aren't so raw, that people are just like, oh, my goodness, I'm. That is so heavy. Which I think is appropriate. You know, people come to church not to, like, just be thrown more burdens. Right. But to be able to realize, like, Jesus has got this. [00:53:07] Speaker A: I'd rather veer to that side, though, than the non. Vulnerability, non. Unwilling to walk through grief. And I don't always understand that. Maybe this is just because I've been the guy in the pulpit for so long. Why you can't just pocket something like that for later and go, oh, yeah, I understand this. I'm gonna hold on to it for a little while because I bet grief's coming down the pike someday for me. [00:53:28] Speaker B: Maybe. [00:53:29] Speaker A: Maybe this will be helpful or something like that. [00:53:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Or the opposite side. I don't feel particular, particularly joyful right now. And this isn't for me, I think, at this moment, but I'm gonna put in my pocket and maybe it'll teach me joy later on. And you guys, we preach all the time. It's really hard to keep up with exactly the ebbs and flows of each person individually, but it's all kind of part of. I hate the idea of thinking of teaching as a weekend. Like, what a depressing thought. Which is why I encourage people to come as often as they can during the year. Not because of attendance, but because, like, this all makes so much more sense when you put it all together and the different speakers and different voices and perspectives in different sections of Scripture. And all of a sudden it begins to breathe life for you. And if you're looking for. You could do this with Jesus if you just take the little piece that I did with Jesus and Mary where he says, the poor you'll always have with you, but me you won't have. So go ahead and put this expensive perfume on my feet. You could come up with the idea that Jesus hates poor people and he wants you to spend money on him. [00:54:30] Speaker B: He loves pedicures. Yes. [00:54:33] Speaker A: And it's even easier to do with our preaching. You want to take a piece in a moment. It can be very frustrating or disappointing, but you got to take the whole thing in, Right? [00:54:43] Speaker B: And the classic line that people use on the way out the door is like, well, I'm not being fed here. [00:54:49] Speaker A: The worst line, it's not a great line. [00:54:52] Speaker B: And it always begs the question, like, well, I don't know whose job it is to feed you if you're not Personally activating your faith in Jesus. I don't know. That's the Shepherd's job, except to lead you to places where you can feed yourself. But I say that because a lot of times that comes from a place of people that are kind of dropping in and out, catching a little bit here and there, and be like, ah, I went three weeks ago and I went seven weeks ago, and neither really did it for me. And it's like, well, but that's not the point. It isn't just how inspirational can Ben or Evan or Lindsay or Josh or Whoever be in 20 minutes? It's like, are we walking out our faith and community in such a way that we're led to green pastures by Jesus and then receiving from him? Otherwise, yeah, you're gonna be frustrated. [00:55:41] Speaker A: And I don't think you want us being the kind of people that take every single Sunday as do or die. You know, I know that leader. I've been that leader. I don't think you want to be led by us in that fashion where we're like, if I don't come through this weekend, oh, my gosh, if I [00:55:56] Speaker B: don't one up on the humor and one up on the prop. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it's nauseating, man. You give that a good three months and you'll wish you'd never asked for that. [00:56:06] Speaker B: That's a good point, you know, But. [00:56:08] Speaker A: But. But if you're coming once every eight weeks, maybe it does feel like the stakes are a little bit higher. Like, I've gotten myself here. I really need to receive something that's particularly in this moment, you know, and we're. I think we're letting the Holy Spirit do that work, and so hopefully that happens for you, but it's just. It's not how we are trying to do this. And I don't think you want us to. [00:56:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think of those middle weeks where it's not like. I do think of it like that as a base hit, you know, and you got to have those, I guess. Yeah. And every once in a while, yeah, we just knock it out of the park, and it's amazing, and you feel great and all the comments come in and everyone's positive, and there's weeks where you're like, yeah, we got the job done, and we're working through a text, and I hope they come back next week. [00:56:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:49] Speaker B: And, yeah, no one walked away be like, wow. And that's okay. And if. If we don't allow those, we'll burn out so quick. [00:56:56] Speaker A: And we've had feedback that's like, give us some expository teaching. It's like, all right, if you want expository, this is part of it. By the way, like, John 15 might be your favorite thing in the whole wide world, but John 6 is there for you or John 7 is there, but you're going to walk through some of this stuff. Especially when you consider Old Testament teaching. We went all the way through Exodus, and, you know, you feel a little lost in the desert at some times of like, this is a little repetitious. It feels like this and that. And if you are bought into that idea of, I want to kind of slowly sojourn through this whole thing, it's actually part of the beauty, the repetition and the little loops that you take. It's awesome. [00:57:34] Speaker B: It's wonderful. [00:57:35] Speaker A: But it's not that, like, mega super bowl moment that you get every time. [00:57:39] Speaker B: Way to redeem a mediocre series that we did is in Exodus. That's good. [00:57:43] Speaker A: I still stand by. [00:57:45] Speaker C: I liked it. [00:57:46] Speaker A: The bones of it. I thought it was one of the best ideas you've had. Evan. The Lord's Prayer connected with Exodus. I thought it was genius. Nobody cared. [00:57:55] Speaker B: Nobody. [00:57:55] Speaker A: But I thought it was genius. [00:57:57] Speaker B: That's good. [00:57:58] Speaker A: We should do it again. You want to try it again? [00:57:59] Speaker B: Again? [00:58:00] Speaker A: Sure. All right. They didn't get it. [00:58:03] Speaker B: Just like those Israelites in the desert. [00:58:05] Speaker A: It's definitely there. [00:58:06] Speaker B: They aren't getting it. Not our. So funny. What a weird call. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:12] Speaker B: You liked it too, right? [00:58:13] Speaker C: I did. I liked it. [00:58:14] Speaker A: Yeah. See, Lindsay and I like it up. [00:58:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I liked it in concept. [00:58:18] Speaker B: I was gonna say that. You remember the concept. I don't think you remember the actual messages. [00:58:22] Speaker C: I don't. [00:58:22] Speaker B: I don't remember him. [00:58:24] Speaker A: That's a good one. [00:58:25] Speaker B: On Sabbath. Yeah. I thought it was good. [00:58:28] Speaker A: Well,